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Determine the Length of Your Workouts

Evaluate Your Progress

Keep Warm-Up in Perspective


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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

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Richard Glover

Thank you Dr Darden for the post, looking forward to the book. It's sad that there is a lot of in-fighting within the HIT community (or so it seems from across the pond). I'm sure it's been said that we all have more in common than not.

But I think people are intitled to a rebuttal, especially if they have been mentioned specifically.

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saseme

logicbdj wrote:
Paul:

My statement stands... if someone is going to mention our organization and make suggestions, which have been attempted, then I will respond to clear the air. If you don't like my posts, don't read them.

Henry:

My information came directly from the research paper on the West Point Study, as printed in The Athletic Journal.

The average lean mass at the beginning and end of the project among the participating cadets reduced by 1.86 pounds. Even considering a possible margin for error in body composition testing, they certainly did not put on a lot of mass relative to the changes made in lifting proficiency, cardio, etc., which is no big surprise... often when one attempts to optimize one system, another will suffer, and that holds true when a person's objective is on how much is lifted for 'x' reps rather than how a muscle is trained to achieve optimum growth.

Why do you think Dr. Darden has introduced so many set variables and specialization methods in his books over and above basic hard lifting for a few sets per muscle?


From Dr. Darden's later post this would appear to be all bunk, and your using the data to support your agenda, and both Darden and Jones noted that the data collection must have been inaccurate compared to what they were seeing.

Talking about you vs. talking to you...
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logicbdj

Ontario, CAN

Here's an interesting point:

When I say (or others say) they see changes that were not there before, and that they look larger, others say "prove it... you just want to see what you want to see, and you have to have hard evidence of change" (e.g., body comp, etc.). But when this same argument is presented against Jones and Darden, the song and dance changes.

I'm not denying what they saw and the changes they believe their people made, since I have clients who have and are making obvious changes to their appearances, and yet body comp does not show much if any change, and in some instances body parts look larger and yet measure a bit smaller (go figure). All I did was present the data as per measured and reported in a document when I was only 10 years old... I was not there. And so, don't shoot the messenger.
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BloodandGuts

All i can say is if Mike Mentzer's consolidated routines have never, and will never work for anyone, then all those overwhelmingly positive testimonials at Mike metnzer dot com must have been fabricated.

and to call Mentzer a "kook" just shows a marked disrespect for an intelligent and passionate thinker who was also an incredible bodybuilder. You dont have to like or agree with him (even though i do) but I think he deserves a little respect among HIT advocates regardless.

Maybe he's just trying to stir up the Sh** by talking trashy about some people in order to help promote the book.
I'll buy it regardless because Dr D always has something worthwhile to say and the stories of the old school BBers are great fun and a great way to learn and be inspired.

regards,
B&G
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saseme

logicbdj wrote:

Here's an interesting point:



Not unless your talking to yourself, which you do a lot of.

Once again BJ, no pulpit here, this is about Dr. D's new book, not you, not the IART and not your ego.

Trying to consolidate the supposed HIT community is a waste of time because of people like you who'll only play as a team if it's done 'your' way. This attitude is no different in the likes of Hutchins, Hahn, Little, Mentzer or any other who has placed a financial and psycho/emotional stake in promoting some one detail to the expense of all the others.

eg.

Mentzer = Infrequency of training and minimal volume(amounts to constant layoffs)

IFART = Partial reps.

Superslow = Rep cadence.

Slowburn = Load, load and more load...

Little = Static contractions.

Whoever promotes negative only training and nothing else...

Dr. Darden doesn't have the ability to to reign in these tree focused types, but does have the ability to keep encouraging people to see the forest, and is in fact helped by contrast by these pretenders in being able to show that.
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dr ken

Ell-as you know I have poor computer skills and don't get involved with internet boards but I did want to make a statement. All of the various proponents of what they term "HIT Training" or their version of it, can argue day and night and the end product means nothing. All of us who were at Nautilus in the early '70's got results and trained others who received great or at least significant results relative to previous efforts because the training was HARD. That's the bottom line. You were the head trainer until other obligations heaped upon you by Arthur took you out of the factory gym. If you recall I swept the factory floor, worked in assembly, ran a drill press and lathe, did work with both Laputka and Scott in the prototype shop and for six or eight months, joined Dick Wall as the only two drivers we had. I also trained a lot of men who came through the foors of the center as well as serving as Arthur's showpiece for football coaches when one of the "good" physiques weren't available. One of the first times you trained me I thought I had gone to the limit on the super pullover, the POTA in fact, and you said "Okay, get two more." I did and then you said, "Okay, now six more" and although I said nothing, I thought, "this motherfucker is out of his fucking mind" but of course, I attempted to do it if only to show you I could. You would destroy people as did Kim, and later, as I did when given the chance by Arthur (I wonder if Doug Beaver remembers walking out, or stumbling out in the middle of our session?). You can name it, publish it, argue it but by and large, guys just don't train very hard or do so consistently and that's why the level of results don't match what they were in the old days. You and I have had our disagreements but the bottom line is that you would ask your trainees for their best, insist upon it as a matter of course, as a matter of just doing it correctly, and that's why you, and those of us from the "old days" got results on very limited programs. We rarely argued the science of it but we trained and that's what's missing. Your New High Intensity Training has been a great kick in the ass for many who never had the exposure and could serve the same purpose for those, even those who say they utilize HIT principles, who just don't get "it".
Dr. Ken Leistner
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k38wood

Ell: I am looking forward to your new
book...and I'm enjoying your discussion with Tim Patterson.
Arthur's great strength was that he never got too far from the basics...
and he had a firm grasp of the basics at all times. It will be great to
read a book that captures the spirit
of the "old days" at Nautilus...
especially a book from someone who was there...AND from someone who really knows his stuff...
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ZEZ

Dr. Ken, since you came on here, i was wondering if your new book is available just online? Or can you pick it up at a Borders or Barnes & Noble? Thanks in advance, Jim.
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Ellington Darden

Dr. Ken,

You're right. "Outright hard work," as Jones referred to it, was the backbone of the early Nautilus days. Almost everyone who dropped in, received a dose of it, whether he wanted it or not.

Doug Beaver, yeah I remember him. What about that buddy of your's, Cameron was his fist name? He was into the "math" of it all. Wonder what happened to him?

Ellington
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Ellington Darden

Kim Wood,

Thanks for visiting.

Kim shares some great stories in the new book, and his son, John, also contributed a chapter. John has a Web site that specializes on grip strength: functionalhandstrength.com.

Ellington
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Wolfie

Dr. Darden,
I have a quesion regarding those "get 2 more", "get 6 more" situations (or in the case of one Jones supervised workout, when Dr. Ken got something like 12 reps over his previous best on the leg press). Those last reps, were they performed in continuous fashion, or was a "rest/pause" involved?
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Ellington Darden

Wolfie wrote:
Dr. Darden,
I have a quesion regarding those "get 2 more", "get 6 more" situations (or in the case of one Jones supervised workout, when Dr. Ken got something like 12 reps over his previous best on the leg press). Those last reps, were they performed in continuous fashion, or was a "rest/pause" involved?


They were continuous.

Ellington

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dr ken

I appreciate what I'll take as a compliment in that you think I have or should have a book but I don't have one, never did, not planning to ever write one. I'll leave that stuff to Ell and Kim.
Dr. Ken
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donald

Outside of Arthur's writing about low back training with Med-x, I don't recall him recommending anything less than two workouts a week for full body training. He surely wasn't in agreement with Mentzer.
At age 53 I still train 3 days a week, but when I occasionally miss a workout for whatever reason, I make better progress. Looking forward to the book.
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Al Coleman

Ohio, USA

Dr. Ken,

You should write a book. I don't know how else to put it.

Regards,

Al
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ron33

Have a question about the full body training.I maybe wrong but were'nt they recomending 3 days one week and 2 days the next back in the late 70's.I remember training that way for awhile but cant remember were i read about it??
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ZEZ

dr ken wrote:
I appreciate what I'll take as a compliment in that you think I have or should have a book but I don't have one, never did, not planning to ever write one. I'll leave that stuff to Ell and Kim.
Dr. Ken


Sorry Dr.Ken, i went blank for a minute. I was thinking of Stewart McRobert's new book. Me bad.
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john38

Oklahoma, USA

ron33 wrote:
Have a question about the full body training.I maybe wrong but were'nt they recomending 3 days one week and 2 days the next back in the late 70's.I remember training that way for awhile but cant remember were i read about it??


Everyone here (with the exception of Dr. D) needs to read the nautilus bulletins. Jones said three full body workouts to utter failure in circuit style. Period. The only mention I have seen where he contradicts that is in TNHIT. I have always gotten pretty good results with Jones' methods and use them in a periodization manner. None of us here (dr. darden excluded) will ever do a true HIT workout to Jones' satisfaction, and none of us will ever match what Viator did in the colorado experiment. I look forward to the new book and hope it's release is very soon.
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parker1

My apologies for asking...when is the book due out?
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HeavyHitter32

I don't know how you guys can do 8-12 exercises (via total body) to absolute, total positive failure. I can only *really* do it for 4-5 exercises. Usually after a few sets of leg exercises, I am finished.

I think Mentzer had the right idea here (but eventually took it way too far). I think the Heavy Duty I routine is more practical for many.
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dr ken

"What about that buddy of your's, Cameron was his fist name? He was into the "math" of it all. Wonder what happened to him?"
Ell-
If you recall, my first "home" in Lake Helen remained my van which was parked in the orange grove next to "office Debbie's" family's house. When I first got down there, I trained immediately but Arthur and Ed did not give me a job the first two or three weeks. I picked a guy up hitch-hiking who had traveled from Richmond, VA to check out Nautilus too and he was Corbin Roberts an Olympic lifter who had helped to build the first computers at the Univ. of Illinois, lived in a commune out there, and then decided to get back into lifting.

His dad Reg was the heavyweight Olympic lifting champ of VA for many years and is I am told, still an active ref even into what has to now be old age. Corbin was extremely strong and was then working in a fernery, and I worked with him for a few weeks, filthy back-breaking work with old African-American men and very young Caucasion girls, none of whom had an education or teeth and that refers to both groups!! We wound up making sure everyone's check got cashed properly at the package store nearby because we were the only ones who could read or write.

I began work at the factory, Corbin worked a number of other places but we trained together for a few months and when Arthur had me do the demolition on his house, I hired Corbin to help. He was God-awful strong although skinny at 6 feet plus and only 200 pounds. Sort of a Ron Peters type without the 19 inch arms!

Corbin and Arthur got into it a few times because Corbin thought you had to measure the distance each rep moved to in order to be accurate in determining power production and thus true progression. You may recall that for about three weeks, Arthur allowed him to tape yardsticks to the weight stack frames of some of the machines to measure distance of each rep along with reps completed and weight used.

I guess that qualifies for "being into the math" of it. I met him and the group of Olympic lifters he hung with in Richmond a few times in intervening years and at age 26 he married a 52 year old woman who was very interesting and one of the foremost musicians in the nation. Later, they split and he may have re-married someone else, perhaps in 1977 or so as I lost touch with him around then but heard he had become a corrections officer in VA.

If nothing else, your new upcoming book could be chock full of stories about the many characters who passed through the place, looking for Nirvana or who hung on Arthur's every word, even when it was obvious to you, Kim, me, and those of us used to Arthur's sense of humor that he was just destroying them verbally even as their attitude reflected a "Yes Master" quality. Giving credit where its due, some of the guys who came down did learn a lot and train hard and benefitted greatly from the experience.
Dr. Ken
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Ellington Darden

Dr. Ken,

You're right. Corbin was his name, not Cameron. And he had all those yardsticks on the machine frames. Corbin was strong and very focused.

And I remember well your van.

What about Bill, a bodybuilder who was training for the Mr. Kentucky, which he won? He worked in one of the back shops for three or four months. Do you remember him?

What a character he was. He told a story one day at lunch, which involved a weekend adventure with several girls at a motel in Daytona Beach that I still smile about.

Arthur came into the lunch room about halfway through the story and related something similar that happened to him with some girls from Georgia. The group was a riot with laughter.

Ellington

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Wolfie

john38 wrote:
The only mention I have seen where he contradicts that is in TNHIT.


Try to get a hold the "My First Half Century In The Iron Game" series. Written in the mid-90's, Jones talks about 2 full-body workouts a week. Even in his pre-Bulletin #1 unpublished material, he talks about it. And the need for individual experimentation vis-a-vis volume and frequency is always a caveat in all his works.
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Paul25

Wolfie wrote:
john38 wrote:
The only mention I have seen where he contradicts that is in TNHIT.

Try to get a hold the "My First Half Century In The Iron Game" series. Written in the mid-90's, Jones talks about 2 full-body workouts a week. Even in his pre-Bulletin #1 unpublished material, he talks about it. And the need for individual experimentation vis-a-vis volume and frequency is always a caveat in all his works.



Hi,


"My First Half Century In The Iron Game" series" can be seen on Cyberpump in the Aurther Jones section. It's $12 a year to subscribe to Cyberpump.
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HeavyHitter32

Paul25 wrote:
Wolfie wrote:
john38 wrote:
The only mention I have seen where he contradicts that is in TNHIT.

Try to get a hold the "My First Half Century In The Iron Game" series. Written in the mid-90's, Jones talks about 2 full-body workouts a week. Even in his pre-Bulletin #1 unpublished material, he talks about it. And the need for individual experimentation vis-a-vis volume and frequency is always a caveat in all his works.


Hi,


"My First Half Century In The Iron Game" series" can be seen on Cyberpump in the Aurther Jones section. It's $12 a year to subscribe to Cyberpump.


Do they actually have the entire series? I remember it was incomplete last time I looked (quite some time ago).
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