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Dr. Darden: Passive Elasticity of Titin, Eccentrics
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ATP 4 Vitality

Dr. Darden,

Can you comment on passive elasticity of Titin and the relationship to eccentric weight training?
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Ellington Darden

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Dr. Darden,

Can you comment on passive elasticity of Titin and the relationship to eccentric weight training?



I'm not familiar with what you're asking.

Ellington
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ATP 4 Vitality

Dr. Darden,

The information on Titin.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...spb20111304.pdf

Michael MacMillan wrote about this information....NeGator

http://news.medinfo.ufl.edu/...ilding-science/
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Ellington Darden

The article about Titin is interesting. I'll need to read it several more times to be able to discuss it. And the drawings are noteworthy.

I talked with MacMillan three or four times. His Negator machines are less productive than the ones from X-Force, at least in my opinion.

Thanks for including the material.

Ellington
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ATP 4 Vitality

I would like to see Dr. Michael MacMillan MD post here on Titin and eccentric training. Thirty year of eccentric training experience should be very informative.

The application of the knowledge on Titin might end the practice of plyometrics.

Muscle cells produce phosphatidic acid during eccentric contractions which activates mTOR, the master enzyme responsible for muscle hypertrophy.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...pubmed/19470781


Myokine IL-8 may be released more during eccentric exercise. RIP Arthur Jones, myokines have shown that the "indirect effect" is a real physiological occurrence within the body.

Muscle fibers - slow and fast twitch muscle fibers release different myokines. Thus, aerobics and weight lifting may offer different physical benefits. Can you hear the laughter, ALL of you anti-aerobics zealots?
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ATP 4 Vitality

Ellington Darden wrote:

His Negator machines are less productive than the ones from X-Force, at least in my opinion.

Ellington


I'm sure Edwin "Truck" Brown would agree with your assessment of the X-Force machines, with his 20 1/8 inch left arm measurement in only 4 workouts during 2 weeks. His left upper arm contracted went from 19.5 inches to 20.125 inches in 2 weeks. No drugs....Lots of food.

The best I've ever done in 2 weeks was 3/8 inch on negative-only rest pause.
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HeavyHitter32

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Ellington Darden wrote:

His Negator machines are less productive than the ones from X-Force, at least in my opinion.

Ellington

I'm sure Edwin "Truck" Brown would agree with your assessment of the X-Force machines, with his 20 1/8 inch left arm measurement in only 4 workouts during 2 weeks. His left upper arm contracted went from 19.5 inches to 20.125 inches in 2 weeks. No drugs....Lots of food.

The best I've ever done in 2 weeks was 3/8 inch on negative-only rest pause.


No drugs, my ass. lol
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acas1959

Of course no drugs! ... just like Casey, Mike, Boyer and Sergio lmao
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hit4me

Florida, USA

acas1959 wrote:
Of course no drugs! ... just like Casey, Mike, Boyer and Sergio lmao


Jones did not use drugs and he looked pretty good at around 50 years of age

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entsminger

Virginia, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Ellington Darden wrote:

His Negator machines are less productive than the ones from X-Force, at least in my opinion.

Ellington

I'm sure Edwin "Truck" Brown would agree with your assessment of the X-Force machines, with his 20 1/8 inch left arm measurement in only 4 workouts during 2 weeks. His left upper arm contracted went from 19.5 inches to 20.125 inches in 2 weeks. No drugs....Lots of food.

The best I've ever done in 2 weeks was 3/8 inch on negative-only rest pause.


---Scott---
Maybe if he hadn't lifted in quite a while and his arm was still 19.5 and then he jumped on those machines and ate a ton more food would his arm go up that much in 2 weeks. Like in Colorado .
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ATP 4 Vitality

HeavyHitter32 wrote:

No drugs, my ass. lol


Mr. Brown does have superb genetics. However, it is a sad commentary that PED's have been involved for so very long in bodybuilding. Misuse of drugs is a very serious problem.

The insulin sensitivity of a young (19 year old) Casey Viator was most likely very high. With insulin's anabolic nature, and with Casey being very lean was of great advantage to optimal insulin sensitivity. That is one of the reasons carbohydrates are necessary in an anabolic diet, not to mention a protein sparing effect. I'm sure some athletes are misusing insulin sensitivity drugs.

Bodybuilding is certainly not as popular as once, but vanity surely is. Plus, supplements advertisements have never been as sophisticated as today. Caveat emptor.

After looking at various exercise
EMG's for a while now, it seems heavier loads illicit much more muscle activity. Different movements that recruit the same muscles, don't vary percentage activity levels very much. In other words, chin ups, rows, and pull ups recruit the same muscle in similar manners to more or less similar degrees. Trainers (gurus) will not admit this, as variety is way over stated.
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acas1959

Casey told many people over the years he used steroids, during and after the famous experiment no surprise here. I see no problem with people who use them in a safe manner but to pretend that a guy of that size is not on the gear is absurd.

Regards,
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acas1959

hit4me wrote:
acas1959 wrote:
Of course no drugs! ... just like Casey, Mike, Boyer and Sergio lmao

Jones did not use drugs and he looked pretty good at around 50 years of age



Yes he did looked great, probably like many posters in this forum do look like him drug free ... 19+ inch guns ... thats another story

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ATP 4 Vitality

Exercise with an eccentric emphasis can raise the resting energy expenditure.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...pubmed/18714225
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Average Al

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

Muscle cells produce phosphatidic acid during eccentric contractions which activates mTOR, the master enzyme responsible for muscle hypertrophy.



So mTor activation is good for hypertrophy. But what about aging and longevity? See the other thread on this, or consider this:

"Many experts in the biology of ageing believe that pharmacological interventions to slow ageing are a matter of ?when? rather than ?if?. A leading target for such interventions is the nutrient response pathway defined by the mechanistic target of rapamycin (mTOR). Inhibition of this pathway extends lifespan in model organisms and confers protection against a growing list of age-related pathologies. Characterized inhibitors of this pathway are already clinically approved, and others are under development. Although adverse side effects currently preclude use in otherwise healthy individuals, drugs that target the mTOR pathway could one day become widely used to slow ageing and reduce age-related pathologies in humans."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...les/PMC3687363/

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ATP 4 Vitality

Average Al wrote:

So mTor activation is good for hypertrophy. But what about aging and longevity? See the other thread on this, or consider this:



Al,

Good ?

Sometimes it is hard to see the forest for the trees. I personally see no reason to listen to anyone but experts about longevity. I don't think T-Nation is the best source of information...they are in the business of selling supplements. All anabolic workouts most likely cause mTor release.....but there is a clear need to stay strong. Individual needs/wants/desires will decide to what extent anabolic workouts will be employed. I doubt 1-2 weekly HIT workouts comprised with eccentric repetitions would affect longevity much if any. On the other hand, IGF-1 which is affected by diet, I do believe plays a large role in longevity. Valter Longo is an educated source of information on longevity. Most important, observe/ask what older people do. Older people don't bite.....lol.

Salt restriction, plant-based diet, calorie restriction, fasts, animal protein restriction, optimal insulin sensitivity, sufficient rest....and numerous other things play a role as regards longevity. All things said, a strong mind is more important than strong muscles.

P.S.

Many people have lived a long time and have never been to a gym. Furthermore, the Okinawa island people eat a very low fat, high carbohydrate diet: 85% carbohydrate, 9% protein, 6% fat. They are noted for their longevity. Protein supplementation?
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Crotalus

You live .... and then you die ... no matter what the hell you do.

You have people that get into their 90's eating vegetables and lemon water and others get there on cigarettes and whisky.

Just have a good time while you're alive and quit worrying about passing George Burn's 100 years.

But if THAT is what makes you happy , go for it . I just can't see getting around on a walker, portable oxygen and needing someone to wipe your ass worth it ... but that's just me.



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Nwlifter

Again.. mTOR is on a per-cell basis, it's not released into the body, it's within the cell that is stimulated. Increasing mTOR in a muscle cell will have zero affect on mTOR in other cells in the body.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

well lets see

Dr. Darden is in his seventies, i think Flanagan is still around, Jack Lalanne lived to his nineties, Arnold and Franco are still hitting the gym
Stallone is still pumping it up and also doing enhancement supplements too
Anibel Lopez is working HIT and training others the same these days

then there are those that passed early, the mentzers, mattarazzo, etc

when its your time, its your time...some live longer others don't, it all part of life circle

i think staying active and having a more positive outlook more than anything promotes a healthy lifestyle and longevity
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Crotalus

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:

Most important, observe/ask what older people do. Older people don't bite.....lol.


That advice reminds of another great quote from Jones ....

" You want to learn how to train a race horse ?
Don't ask the race horse ".

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Donnie Hunt

I've been enjoying the dialogue here.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Nwlifter wrote:
Again.. mTOR is on a per-cell basis, it's not released into the body, it's within the cell that is stimulated. Increasing mTOR in a muscle cell will have zero affect on mTOR in other cells in the body.


Not quite so simple.

mTor is "downstream of insulin, IGF-1, and a host of other pro-growth signaling compounds. mTor does not exist in a vacuum, as Bro-Science would have some to believe, but operates in a very complex environment called biochemistry to enable a very specific role called life.

P.S. "The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!"
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ATP 4 Vitality

Arthur Jones once wrote this:

http://www.arthurjonesexercise...

I hope soon that full understanding of titin's role in muscular contraction is fully understood. Arthur Jones' words were so very far ahead of time.

I do believe Arthur's "pre-stretch" ideas are now outdated. Pre-stretching only activates the cascade of occurrences involving titin's function. Just IMO!

Furthermore, eccentric lifting will alleviate any need for plyometrics. Proper initiation of titin's action can fully be accomplished by eccentrics, and more importantly, titin can be activated through the FULL range of movement.

Finally, FULL ROM can be enhanced with a form of eccentrics called EQIs, especially useful as one ages.
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Nwlifter

mTOR is within the cell, it's not a circulating 'hormone', raising mTOR in a muscle cell through mechanical work, will have nothing to do with mTOR in any other cell in the body. It's affected per cell, within 'that' cell. IGF1 etc, affects mTOR signaling 'in that cell'. Not bro science, real science! :)


ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
Again.. mTOR is on a per-cell basis, it's not released into the body, it's within the cell that is stimulated. Increasing mTOR in a muscle cell will have zero affect on mTOR in other cells in the body.

Not quite so simple.

mTor is "downstream of insulin, IGF-1, and a host of other pro-growth signaling compounds. mTor does not exist in a vacuum, as Bro-Science would have some to believe, but operates in a very complex environment called biochemistry to enable a very specific role called life.

P.S. "The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!"


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HeavyHitter32

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Arthur Jones once wrote this:

http://www.arthurjonesexercise...

I hope soon that full understanding of titin's role in muscular contraction is fully understood. Arthur Jones' words were so very far ahead of time.

I do believe Arthur's "pre-stretch" ideas are now outdated. Pre-stretching only activates the cascade of occurrences involving titin's function. Just IMO!

Furthermore, eccentric lifting will alleviate any need for plyometrics. Proper initiation of titin's action can fully be accomplished by eccentrics, and more importantly, titin can be activated through the FULL range of movement.

Finally, FULL ROM can be enhanced with a form of eccentrics called EQIs, especially useful as one ages.


marcph,

You used to be a big advocate of explosive, low rep multiple sets. What made you re-think this?
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