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Dr. Darden: Recommended Protein Intake?
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uchiyama1

Dr.Darden,

What is your current recommendation for protein intake?

C
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Ellington Darden

Not much. Approximately 0.5 grams of protein per pound of of body weight.

Ellington
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uchiyama1

Excellent. Thanks Dr.Darden
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ATP 4 Vitality

Ron Brown, author of "The Body Fat Guide" states:


"Human breast milk contains approximately 10% of calories from protein. This supplies all the protein needs during infancy, the time of a human's life when protein needs are the highest. On a diet of 10 % protein, an infant will double its weight in 6 months and triple its weight in a year. How can an adult who is not building new tissue at the same rate possibly need a higher percentage of protein than this?"

-------------

Hard to refute his logic
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Lioncourt

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Ron Brown, author of "The Body Fat Guide" states:


"Human breast milk contains approximately 10% of calories from protein. This supplies all the protein needs during infancy, the time of a human's life when protein needs are the highest. On a diet of 10 % protein, an infant will double its weight in 6 months and triple its weight in a year. How can an adult who is not building new tissue at the same rate possibly need a higher percentage of protein than this?"

-------------

Hard to refute his logic


Logical yes, but not scientifically accurate on the needs for adults are when we actually study adult protein intakes.

Babies just need calories in general, they're growing more than just muscle in those years.

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ATP 4 Vitality

Lioncourt wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Ron Brown, author of "The Body Fat Guide" states:


"Human breast milk contains approximately 10% of calories from protein. This supplies all the protein needs during infancy, the time of a human's life when protein needs are the highest. On a diet of 10 % protein, an infant will double its weight in 6 months and triple its weight in a year. How can an adult who is not building new tissue at the same rate possibly need a higher percentage of protein than this?"

-------------

Hard to refute his logic

Logical yes, but not scientifically accurate on the needs for adults are when we actually study adult protein intakes.

Babies just need calories in general, they're growing more than just muscle in those years.



I'm not remotely interested in any dietary arguments on the internet, however, Mr. Brown never stated any scientific data for adults. He merely asked a question.

The current research on how much protein is necessary is far from settled and is highly controversial. So where can one find accurate scientific data on protein intake for adults? The governmental RDA's of protein intakes are the recommended daily allowances, not minimal amounts. There is a wide range of percentage of protein that the human body can remain healthy at.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...pubmed/16004827

BTW, I like meat very much, all kinds, and I no longer fall for gimmick diets, such as Paleo, which swept up certain sub-HIT groups.

Food can bring much pleasure and be part of a healthy and productive life. Some seem to obsess over food.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

Ellington Darden wrote:
Not much. Approximately 0.5 grams of protein per pound of of body weight.

Ellington


Dr. Darden,

o.5 is a wow, how much fat and carbs should we consume.

thx, dan
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Average Al

Ellington Darden wrote:
Not much. Approximately 0.5 grams of protein per pound of of body weight.

Ellington


If you base the amount on body weight, then the amount of protein per lb of lean mass will depend on how much fat you are carrying. Someone obese who is losing weight would end up dropping protein intake over time. Does this ever become a consideration? Or is the 0.5 gm/lb recommendation generous enough to cover all circumstances?

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Ray200

Lioncourt wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Ron Brown, author of "The Body Fat Guide" states:


"Human breast milk contains approximately 10% of calories from protein. This supplies all the protein needs during infancy, the time of a human's life when protein needs are the highest. On a diet of 10 % protein, an infant will double its weight in 6 months and triple its weight in a year. How can an adult who is not building new tissue at the same rate possibly need a higher percentage of protein than this?"

-------------

Hard to refute his logic

Logical yes, but not scientifically accurate on the needs for adults are when we actually study adult protein intakes.

Babies just need calories in general, they're growing more than just muscle in those years.



Reminds me of a Dan Duchaine Q&A column where he recited his 'favourites'. One aspiring bodybuilder noted his friend's two Rottweiler pups were packing on huge amounts of muscle by eating nothing but dog food and asked Duchaine if he should do the same.
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farhad

Massachusetts, USA

uchiyama1 wrote:
Dr.Darden,

What is your current recommendation for protein intake?

C



This is an out-of-context question. There are many variables that need to be taken into account. Primarily, who is the individual are are seeking protein intake for?
Male/Female?
20 year old? 65 yr old?
Calorie surplus? Calorie deficit?
10% bodyfat? 35% bodyfat?
HIT training(2X/week)? Volume training (6X/wk) Marathon training?
Etc...




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HeavyHitter32

farhad wrote:
uchiyama1 wrote:
Dr.Darden,

What is your current recommendation for protein intake?

C


This is an out-of-context question. There are many variables that need to be taken into account. Primarily, who is the individual are are seeking protein intake for?
Male/Female?
20 year old? 65 yr old?
Calorie surplus? Calorie deficit?
10% bodyfat? 35% bodyfat?
HIT training(2X/week)? Volume training (6X/wk) Marathon training?
Etc...


Agreed.
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Ellington Darden

I firmly believe that lack of protein intake is NOT the problem people are having in strength training and bodybuilding. "Maybe," as Arthur Jones once said, "there's a starving bodybuilding holdup somewhere in a yet-to-be discovered cave, who may be deficient in protein. But I seriously doubt it."

The problem is primarily one of training (lack of intensity and form), and secondarily one of poor genetics.

Ellington
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Grant D.

Dr. Darden,

Very clear response regarding protein. I am ALWAYS amazed as I see form breakdowns in commercial gyms and most YouTube Videos. It appears just as a trainee is beginning to get into higher loads and intensity they loose most gain potential with exruciating form.

Thank You
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NewYorker

New York, USA

Amino acids are absorbed at the rate of about 10g per hour.

Unless you are taking specific PEDs then 0.5g per pound of body weight is a lot.

If you eat 33g of protein in one meal, some of that is very likely stored as fat. Much has been studied about the acidic affect of excess protein.

And the tolerances from bodybuilder to bodybuilder are quite small.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Arthur Jones penned this many years ago:

"Twenty years ago, the subject of diet was seldom mentioned in weight-training publications - and when it was, no great emphasis was placed upon it; but at approximately that point in time, the supposed benefit to be derived from massive amounts of protein was "discovered" -and the floodgates were opened. Since then, the propaganda devoted to the factor of diet has reached such proportions that it now dominates the entire field of physical training."
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Crotalus


The problem is primarily one of training (lack of intensity and form), and secondarily one of poor genetics.


I doubt anyone can blame their diet on lack of results unless they are cheating on their 'contest diet' and come in too fat.

The 'intensity and form' points are true but they can also be taken too far as quite a few of us here learned over our many years of training.
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Equity

Ellington Darden wrote:
I firmly believe that lack of protein intake is NOT the problem people are having in strength training and bodybuilding. "Maybe," as Arthur Jones once said, "there's a starving bodybuilding holdup somewhere in a yet-to-be discovered cave, who may be deficient in protein. But I seriously doubt it."

The problem is primarily one of training (lack of intensity and form), and secondarily one of poor genetics.

Ellington


In all respect ( I'm a reader /fan of a lot of your works); a lack of volume is also the cause concomitant with lack of genetics.

In subjects with 'poor genetics' the preponderance of slow and intermediate muscle fiber type are a good cause of lack of gains. I know you have previously outlinend guidelines for 'muscular efficiency' in regards to rep range. But I don't think this volume goes far enough for people with less than average strength /power genetics.

Regards

Equity
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PTDaniel

I watch hundreds of trainees train over the course of a month. What most of them lack is consistency, intensity, proper pace to accumulate fatigue(1 set of 8 reps, 5 minutes texting, 5 minutes talking, another set..), and reasonable form. There will be neon colored shaker cup after neon colored shaker cups filled with pre-workout and post-workout drinks and a mad rush to take advantage of the "two hour window", but nothing relevant to real success in their muscle gaining efforts.
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parker1

Ellington Darden wrote:
Not much. Approximately 0.5 grams of protein per pound of of body weight.

Ellington


Dr. Ron Rosedale, a 'low carb' endocrinologist, has published multiple papers on protein intake that agree 100% with Dr. Darden's recommendation. The biggest concern is the impact of too much protein on IGF-1 and the negative impact on cancer cells, etc.

Brad Pilon, author of Eat/Stop/Eat, in his paper on protein requirements, noted everything eventually pointed back to no more than 50% of LBM is needed for health and to build muscle. His credentials: "After 4 years of University I graduated with honors (and Dean?s list too) with a degree in Applied Human Nutrition."

Popular protein requirements are set by the supplement industry; science has known better for over 100 years. eg Prof. Henry Chittenden wrote about exceptional improvements in health simply by reducing protein recommendations from over 130 or so to 50 - 60g/day. This was around 1905.

30 or 40 years later, Dr. William Rose discovered the minimal maintenance amount of protein is around 20 grams a day. Even scientists at the WHO recommend around 5% of your diet should be protein. This is based on countries around the world who exhibit longer lifespans than the US with lower rates of western disease -- heart disease, cancer, Type 2 diabetes, Alzheimer's, etc.

Even Barry Sears, PhD (MIT), of the Zone Diet fame said extra protein does absolutely no good in terms of muscle growth.

Just like at Mike Mentzer -- genetics? yes. juicing? not doubt...much like his peers who were doing the same thing. A big difference? Mike didn't consume near the protein guys like Arnold, Coe, et al, did and all things being equal did quite well--politics and other issues aside.

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ATP 4 Vitality

P1,

Good informative post

Thanks
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ATP 4 Vitality

I will be doing a "meatless" Friday along with one-day a week fast of 600 calories for a time period of 6 weeks.
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S.M.Punisher

Any thoughts on the one meal a day plan?

I tried it a few times, always in the evening, and felt good on it. The idea was to eat whatever I wanted, within reason. I always thought I would eat more sweets but usually felt satisfied after all the quality nutrients were in.

Anyone think it's a good plan long term, regardless of whether the goal is fat loss, maintenance or muscle building?
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HeavyHitter32

I do a "mini fast" each day. I usually don't eat 4-5 hours before bedtime (helps my stomach a lot)...7 hours in bed for sleep...then I usually workout the following morning (whether cardio and/or wight training).
So, I go about 12-13 hours each day without eating.
I'm probably around 10% bf right now and eat every 3 hours or so throughout the day and drink plenty of water. I've been doing this for several years now and it works well for me.
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ATP 4 Vitality

S.M.Punisher wrote:
Any thoughts on the one meal a day plan?

Don't! Stick to Dr. Darden's diet recommendations.


I tried it a few times, always in the evening, and felt good on it.

please read Matt Stone's "The Catecholamine Honeymoon"

Intermittent fasting can be stressful,
perhaps leading to high levels of adrenal hormones... why risk this?

The idea was to eat whatever I wanted, within reason. I always thought I would eat more sweets but usually felt satisfied after all the quality nutrients were in.

Anyone think it's a good plan long term, regardless of whether the goal is fat loss, maintenance or muscle building?


More smaller meals a day keeps metabolic equilibrium....keeps hormone and blood glucose stable.....which is more conducive to health, fat loss and muscle gain.
The reason for intermittent fasting is many don't want the required planning and preparation of more smaller meals a day.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

S.M.Punisher wrote:
Any thoughts on the one meal a day plan?

I tried it a few times, always in the evening, and felt good on it. The idea was to eat whatever I wanted, within reason. I always thought I would eat more sweets but usually felt satisfied after all the quality nutrients were in.

Anyone think it's a good plan long term, regardless of whether the goal is fat loss, maintenance or muscle building?


I tried the one meal a day plan for about a week, I was way too lethargic and lightheaded. I think the 4 small meals a day work for me much better

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