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Determine the Length of Your Workouts

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Keep Warm-Up in Perspective


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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

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Trentine
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StuKE

StuKE wrote:
hit4me wrote:
ok, what is considered too much of a good thing
6 days/week 2 -3 hours of weight training plus moderate cardio
2 - 3 days/week full body to MMF with moderate cardio
3 days/week split routine MMF with moderate cardio
1/2 marathon or full marathon runs
running 5 miles a day
Crossfit training 4 to 6 days week

with the maount of individuals training around the world in any of these fashions, what is the percentage of heart related deaths or even just attacks?

I wouldn't know. Maybe the percentage is low, maybe most sensible routines are fine. I'm not suggesting everyone avoids hard physical exercise, but after a point, and that point will vary from individual to individual, it is lilely doing more harm than good. I think that very vague statement is fair to say!
The old Tabata style training for me is an example I like to use: apparently great benefits for the cardiovascular system from an extremely short amount of high intensity aerobic exercise. 5-6 minutes I believe. It may be short, but it most certainly is not easy, requiring all out effort with the heart rate very high. Now it may well lead to great fitness, but it is not going to make a person a champion long distance cyclist or runner, also, if a person has any heart or other defect, you can be damn sure you run a much higher risk of exposing it. It's like a car - you can drive it around for years sensibly, or you can redline it and push the engine to it's limits and which do you think is going to be the more risky way of driving?






Nwlifter wrote:
Yes, there is always 'too much of a good thing'.
I remember reading an article about a marathon runner, he was vegan, super healthy, but ran a LOT each week for years, he started having fibrillation, they found his heart was so innervated that he was getting crossed signals, he had to have heart surgery where they actually cut all over his heart to severe some of the nerves.


Average Al wrote:
StuKE wrote:
Thanks guys. Actually, I was referring to aerobic exercise as opposed to the weight, but I suppose it can apply just the same.
I have heard/known people who have died after long / hard runs etc. I used to think it was only unfit people this happened to, shocking their body but no, it happens to regular runners too. Once read that they (the faceless 'they') said a Tour de France knocks time off your life. I wouldn't know how true that is, but the point that making your body work too hard can certainly be detrimental. An example for myself would be the time I suffered way more than I ever had on a 50 mile bike ride (mountain bike). I was in pain, exhausted, nauseous and just an absolute wreck. It turned out my front brake had been rubbing the whole way, but the point is, I knew it had crossed the line.
Af for weight training, I happen to think HIT is very good, as I think many other methods are, but it can leave you feeling mentally and physically drained for a few days afterwards.


This seems to reinforce the concerns you raise:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/....12830/abstract

"An interesting and still not well-understood example for old medical wisdom ?Sola dosis facit venenum? is the increased prevalence of atrial fibrillation (AF) in athletes. Numerous studies have shown a fourfold to eightfold increased risk of AF in athletes compared to the normal population. Analysis of the existing data suggests a dose-dependent effect of exercise. Moderate exercise seems to have a protective effect and decreases the risk of AF, whereas excessive exercise seems to increase the risk of AF."








Sorry, I really ballsed up that post. My reply is in there, begins with 'i wouldn't know...' But I messed up the formatting as using my phone is tricky.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

i have an appointment with my cardiologist on feb 9th, i am gonna ask him what he thinks of hard exercise, running marathons, training to MMF and etc and the effects on the heart and arteries as we get older.
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HeavyHitter32

I asked a cardiologist once a long time ago about training to failure and the heart. He said so long as you have no heart issues, it should be fine; but he said why train to that extent especially if you're not competing or looking to win a championship. He used to do weight training himself.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
I asked a cardiologist once a long time ago about training to failure and the heart. He said so long as you have no heart issues, it should be fine; but he said why train to that extent especially if you're not competing or looking to win a championship. He used to do weight training himself.


exactley, which is why i only go to MMF with no strain at all...2 to 3 seconds positive, 1 or 2 seconds hold and 3 to 4 seconds negative for 8 - 12 reps
no extreme heavy weights anymore or rest pause and no forced reps
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StuKE

I don't think any of us are suggesting we shouldn't train hard, but there is a point you don't need to go past. There is a certain pride in really pushing yourself, it's just best to be wise and know when to stop.
For those of us getting on a bit - and I should point out that I don't think of myself as old or past it of course, it is good to think about thinks a little. My own training will still be hard, still be heavy - though nott all the time. This is when experience and wisdom comes in to play. I don't have the tunnel vision goals I had as a teenager and into my twenties and thirties. The goals have changed, the love for working out has not.
Same with my bike rides, I used to go out with a heart rate monitor and ride keeping my heart rate up there at all costs. Now - I know that is not needed, I go out and I ride for exercise and fun. If I want to roll along, I do, and when I want to power up a hill, or accelerate off as the lights go green I do.
We are in this for the long run, until the end and Zi am pretty sure all of us here feel the same.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Whether Trentine and other ilk such as McGuff, Little and Hutchins intentionally omit the benefits of aerobic conditioning in their public literature and comments, we may never know. The overwhelming amount of research does not support their paradigm. Interesting, Dr. Darden, Pete Sisco, and even Mike Mentzer wrote of the value of aerobic conditioning.

Furthermore, the preponderance of research does not support one set to failure as optimal for strength and hypertrophy. To be honest, Trentine has said if limited to conventional equipment, he may suggest multiple sets. May I also state that Dr. Darden's best book, "BIG," used multiple set.



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entsminger

Virginia, USA

----Scott---
Josh should feel pretty good as the current top two threads are about him and he's not even writing in them!! Just imagine if he was!!! You should come back Josh and don't give me that I can't get on crap!
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Grant D.

Josh is the only one who is actually making progressive gains that has photos to show. Everyone else here is in a stagnated rabid(sic) hole of confusion.

As JT stated ... (paraphrase) "avoid outoading"



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StuKE

Grant D. wrote:
Josh is the only one who is actually making progressive gains that has photos to show. Everyone else here is in a stagnated rabid(sic) hole of confusion.

As JT stated ... (paraphrase) "avoid outoading"





Hmmm, many maybe, but not all (not that ai am progressing, but my intention at the moment is just to tick over).
Can someone please clarify outloading for me so I don't have to sift thrufh the thread to find it?

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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Grant D. wrote:
Josh is the only one who is actually making progressive gains that has photos to show. Everyone else here is in a stagnated rabid(sic) hole of confusion.

As JT stated ... (paraphrase) "avoid outoading"


StuKE wrote:
Hmmm, many maybe, but not all (not that ai am progressing, but my intention at the moment is just to tick over).
Can someone please clarify outloading for me so I don't have to sift thrufh the thread to find it?


My non-shill (or tinfoil) take on this is 'outroading' is where you're straining to complete the hardest or even impossible reps and bring in a lot of extraneous muscles beyond your target muscle(s) to complete the rep.

This is the source of much of the "dick in the dirt" post-workout fatigue and extended recovery periods of (incorrectly done) HIT workouts. And I completely concur.
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HeavyHitter32

simon-hecubus wrote:


My non-shill (or tinfoil) take on this is 'outroading' is where you straining to complete the hardest or even impossible reps and bring in a lot of extraneous muscle groups beyond your target muscles.

This is said to be the source of much of the "dick in the dirt" post-workout fatigue and extended recovery periods of (incorrectly done) HIT workouts. And I completely concur.


Yup.
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Nwlifter



My non-shill (or tinfoil) take on this is 'outroading' is where you're straining to complete the hardest or even impossible reps and bring in a lot of extraneous muscles beyond your target muscle(s) to complete the rep.

This is the source of much of the "dick in the dirt" post-workout fatigue and extended recovery periods of (incorrectly done) HIT workouts. And I completely concur.


2nd this too.
People need to consider..
Muscular failure or whole body volitional failure. Many must have missed Darden pointing this out too many times.

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MikaelPR

To the original point of the post, Joshua looks better in these pics than in pics from any time in his life. He's what 46-47 years old ? He doesn't appear to exhibit any of the tell tale signs of steroid use, so this is great news for all of us, right? If a man who has made it his life long mission to build his body to its maximum potential is making his best gains in middle age, we should all rejoice- there is hope ! A change in training and diet a few years ago showed me that I still have room to grow, and this post has re ignited a fire in me to dig in and try to reach my full potential.
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MDieguez

Agreed Mike
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DownUnderLifter

MikaelPR wrote:
.....A change in training and diet a few years ago showed me that I still have room to grow, and this post has re ignited a fire in me to dig in and try to reach my full potential.

Good to hear Mikael. What did you change in your training & diet?

Cheers

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MikaelPR

Utilizing zone training to focus on the sweet spots of an exercise, cluster sets to provide the required rest for muscle groups with low tolerance for exercise, and in general a move away from heavy, low rep, slow training to more moderate weight, higher rep training. With regards to diet, I'm not worrying so much about caloric intake as making sure I eat more protein and fats and eating less carbs, very loosely following Barry Sears Zone Diet. I would doubt anyone on this forum had a worse diet than I did, so anything I did was an improvement...
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Grant D.

Very refreshing and progressive to see a guy (Josh) who is not only making progress with science, but showing the results of resistance training. One key aspect he states is "beware of outroading". Compare Josh to anyone here who posts pics or videohs (sic). We have folks throwing weights (with calk) and tending to injuries while showing zero progress over 100,000 posts. Guys micro-analyzing zones or muscle tissue fiber while showing regression over decades with a conciliatory acceptance of no-progress and No Mas.

The current SOA is found in the efforts of Trentine, Darden, McGuff, Little, Grant ...

Extreme Intensity
Laser Focus
Reduced Motion
Adequate Recovery
Low Volume
Gravity Circuit

#hello welcome to the Science of 2017. Who can say they are making progress or accepting age, abuse, and regression. One must adjust to make progress with injury, system overload, joint abuse, bewilderment ... with the above.

Here is your bag of tools which you eventually will require as you make progress and achieve machine and joint limitations

303030
Done in One (aka 6060)
Max Pyramid
Max Contraction
Omega

Cheers Grant :)
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Grant D. wrote:
Very refreshing and progressive to see a guy (Josh) who is not only making progress with science, but showing the results of resistance training. One key aspect he states is "beware of outroading"...

...Here is your bag of tools...
303030 Done in One (aka 6060)
Max Pyramid Max Contraction Omega
Cheers Grant :)


I hate reruns.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Grant D. wrote:
Very refreshing and progressive to see a guy (Josh) who is not only making progress with science, but showing the results of resistance training. One key aspect he states is "beware of outroading". Compare Josh to anyone here who posts pics or videohs (sic). We have folks throwing weights (with calk) and tending to injuries while showing zero progress over 100,000 posts. Guys micro-analyzing zones or muscle tissue fiber while showing regression over decades with a conciliatory acceptance of no-progress and No Mas.

The current SOA is found in the efforts of Trentine, Darden, McGuff, Little, Grant ...

Extreme Intensity
Laser Focus
Reduced Motion
Adequate Recovery
Low Volume
Gravity Circuit

#hello welcome to the Science of 2017. Who can say they are making progress or accepting age, abuse, and regression. One must adjust to make progress with injury, system overload, joint abuse, bewilderment ... with the above.

Here is your bag of tools which you eventually will require as you make progress and achieve machine and joint limitations

303030
Done in One (aka 6060)
Max Pyramid
Max Contraction
Omega

Cheers Grant :)


-----Scott ----
Yes Josh looks good, no doubt about that , but there's no evidence that he really looks much better now than years ago. There's no time line on these recent pictures posted here. I don't know where these thousands of posts are showing guys on here going in reverse etc as you said? Seems to me that Turpin keeps making gains? Unlike most of us Josh does this stuff for a living . His whole waking day is training someone else or himself or some related activity. One couldn't help to keep getting better if that's all he had to do.
The sad thing related to this Josh Saga is that since he left this site and made it near impossible to see the Renex website we really have no idea how he's been training for quite some time. I would assume he's still doing it the Renex way but who knows, maybe since he's making such wonderful gains now Maybe he's training under Bioforce! Ha ha.
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Nwlifter

bioforce wow blast from the past, I forgot about him, I wonder where he is now a days!
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Nwlifter

So does anyone know the story, how did he get as big as he is in the first place then? How did he go from the first shot where he's really small to big like he is now? I'm new to this whole josh thing. Seems like someone here must know/remember/know him/be able to access that site?



entsminger wrote:
Grant D. wrote:
Very refreshing and progressive to see a guy (Josh) who is not only making progress with science, but showing the results of resistance training. One key aspect he states is "beware of outroading". Compare Josh to anyone here who posts pics or videohs (sic). We have folks throwing weights (with calk) and tending to injuries while showing zero progress over 100,000 posts. Guys micro-analyzing zones or muscle tissue fiber while showing regression over decades with a conciliatory acceptance of no-progress and No Mas.

The current SOA is found in the efforts of Trentine, Darden, McGuff, Little, Grant ...

Extreme Intensity
Laser Focus
Reduced Motion
Adequate Recovery
Low Volume
Gravity Circuit

#hello welcome to the Science of 2017. Who can say they are making progress or accepting age, abuse, and regression. One must adjust to make progress with injury, system overload, joint abuse, bewilderment ... with the above.

Here is your bag of tools which you eventually will require as you make progress and achieve machine and joint limitations

303030
Done in One (aka 6060)
Max Pyramid
Max Contraction
Omega

Cheers Grant :)

-----Scott ----
Yes Josh looks good, no doubt about that , but there's no evidence that he really looks much better now than years ago. There's no time line on these recent pictures posted here. I don't know where these thousands of posts are showing guys on here going in reverse etc as you said? Seems to me that Turpin keeps making gains? Unlike most of us Josh does this stuff for a living . His whole waking day is training someone else or himself or some related activity. One couldn't help to keep getting better if that's all he had to do.
The sad thing related to this Josh Saga is that since he left this site and made it near impossible to see the Renex website we really have no idea how he's been training for quite some time. I would assume he's still doing it the Renex way but who knows, maybe since he's making such wonderful gains now Maybe he's training under Bioforce! Ha ha.


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DownUnderLifter

entsminger wrote:
.....maybe since he's making such wonderful gains now Maybe he's training under Bioforce! Ha ha.


Didn't you make some good gains using Bio's methods Scott?

DUL
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

DownUnderLifter wrote:
entsminger wrote:
.....maybe since he's making such wonderful gains now Maybe he's training under Bioforce! Ha ha.

Didn't you make some good gains using Bio's methods Scott?

DUL


==Scott==
Yes I did actually make some gains using BioForces methods. I wouldn't recommend them to just anybody but they did work and better than most I'd tried. As for Josh his story is a long drawn out one on here and he's been at it consistently for many years. From my recollection , which is questionable at best,he started out like most of us and most likely built his basic frame on typical workout methods. Then somewhere along the line he discovered the RENEX way and kept working out that way. You know, if you keep at this stuff long enough and consistently enough you'll get about as big as you can regardless if your doing RENEX machines or lifting cinder blocks with a broom pole.
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Nwlifter

Ah ok, that's what I was guessing, that the 1x per week full body SS stuff isn't what got him big in the first place...


entsminger wrote:
DownUnderLifter wrote:
entsminger wrote:
.....maybe since he's making such wonderful gains now Maybe he's training under Bioforce! Ha ha.

Didn't you make some good gains using Bio's methods Scott?

DUL

==Scott==
Yes I did actually make some gains using BioForces methods. I wouldn't recommend them to just anybody but they did work and better than most I'd tried. As for Josh his story is a long drawn out one on here and he's been at it consistently for many years. From my recollection , which is questionable at best,he started out like most of us and most likely built his basic frame on typical workout methods. Then somewhere along the line he discovered the RENEX way and kept working out that way. You know, if you keep at this stuff long enough and consistently enough you'll get about as big as you can regardless if your doing RENEX machines or lifting cinder blocks with a broom pole.


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sgb2112

Actually..

https://www.youtube.com/...muFKlZ2s#t=1411
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