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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
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must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
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This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

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Average Al

Nwlifter wrote:
Ah ok, that's what I was guessing, that the 1x per week full body SS stuff isn't what got him big in the first place...


entsminger wrote:
DownUnderLifter wrote:
entsminger wrote:
.....maybe since he's making such wonderful gains now Maybe he's training under Bioforce! Ha ha.

Didn't you make some good gains using Bio's methods Scott?

DUL

==Scott==
Yes I did actually make some gains using BioForces methods. I wouldn't recommend them to just anybody but they did work and better than most I'd tried. As for Josh his story is a long drawn out one on here and he's been at it consistently for many years. From my recollection , which is questionable at best,he started out like most of us and most likely built his basic frame on typical workout methods. Then somewhere along the line he discovered the RENEX way and kept working out that way. You know, if you keep at this stuff long enough and consistently enough you'll get about as big as you can regardless if your doing RENEX machines or lifting cinder blocks with a broom pole.



There is an interview with him in the discussion threads from 2007, where he says he started using HIT methods in 1995, mostly inspired by Mike Mentzer's routines. As of the 2007 interview, he was using using Super Slow for some exercises.

Somewhere along the line, he had a pec tear, I think from heavy bench pressing. I think that injury might have lead him further into the Super Slow stuff.



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Average Al

Grant D. wrote:
Very refreshing and progressive to see a guy (Josh) who is not only making progress with science, but showing the results of resistance training. One key aspect he states is "beware of outroading". Compare Josh to anyone here who posts pics or videohs (sic). We have folks throwing weights (with calk) and tending to injuries while showing zero progress over 100,000 posts. Guys micro-analyzing zones or muscle tissue fiber while showing regression over decades with a conciliatory acceptance of no-progress and No Mas.

The current SOA is found in the efforts of Trentine, Darden, McGuff, Little, Grant ...

Extreme Intensity
Laser Focus
Reduced Motion
Adequate Recovery
Low Volume
Gravity Circuit

#hello welcome to the Science of 2017. Who can say they are making progress or accepting age, abuse, and regression. One must adjust to make progress with injury, system overload, joint abuse, bewilderment ... with the above.

Here is your bag of tools which you eventually will require as you make progress and achieve machine and joint limitations

303030
Done in One (aka 6060)
Max Pyramid
Max Contraction
Omega

Cheers Grant :)


The problem with judging 'progress' from pictures is knowing how lean someone is at the time of the picture.

My understanding is that most bodybuilders of the natural persuasion lose muscle mass when cutting those last few percentage points of fat. They might look quite muscular from being so lean, but actually aren't carrying as much muscle as when at the peak of their bulk.

Relax the diet, let the body fat creep up a bit, and you will be bigger, and might look bigger despite being less ripped. It could be quite misleading to compare photos at ripped/contest leanness versus non-contest walking around weight. You'd need a timeline of contest pictures to conclude that Josh was still progressing.

In any case, what proof do you have that JT is using any of the techniques you list at the end of your post? I thought he has been pretty much pure Renex/SS for many years now.
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HeavyHitter32

Nwlifter wrote:
Ah ok, that's what I was guessing, that the 1x per week full body SS stuff isn't what got him big in the first place...


entsminger wrote:
DownUnderLifter wrote:
entsminger wrote:
.....maybe since he's making such wonderful gains now Maybe he's training under Bioforce! Ha ha.

Didn't you make some good gains using Bio's methods Scott?

DUL

==Scott==
Yes I did actually make some gains using BioForces methods. I wouldn't recommend them to just anybody but they did work and better than most I'd tried. As for Josh his story is a long drawn out one on here and he's been at it consistently for many years. From my recollection , which is questionable at best,he started out like most of us and most likely built his basic frame on typical workout methods. Then somewhere along the line he discovered the RENEX way and kept working out that way. You know, if you keep at this stuff long enough and consistently enough you'll get about as big as you can regardless if your doing RENEX machines or lifting cinder blocks with a broom pole.



I could be wrong, but I recall Josh was doing various HIT and Heavy Duty-like programs during the years prior. He also dabbled in some Zone training as I remember a testimony and pic of him in one of the books.
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Nwlifter

Oh ok, thanks, so as far as you know, he built most of his muscle with some form or forms of HIT and some of Brian's methods?
That's really cool. Too bad he doesn't post here so we could just ask him.



HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
Ah ok, that's what I was guessing, that the 1x per week full body SS stuff isn't what got him big in the first place...


entsminger wrote:
DownUnderLifter wrote:
entsminger wrote:
.....maybe since he's making such wonderful gains now Maybe he's training under Bioforce! Ha ha.

Didn't you make some good gains using Bio's methods Scott?

DUL

==Scott==
Yes I did actually make some gains using BioForces methods. I wouldn't recommend them to just anybody but they did work and better than most I'd tried. As for Josh his story is a long drawn out one on here and he's been at it consistently for many years. From my recollection , which is questionable at best,he started out like most of us and most likely built his basic frame on typical workout methods. Then somewhere along the line he discovered the RENEX way and kept working out that way. You know, if you keep at this stuff long enough and consistently enough you'll get about as big as you can regardless if your doing RENEX machines or lifting cinder blocks with a broom pole.



I could be wrong, but I recall Josh was doing various HIT and Heavy Duty-like programs during the years prior. He also dabbled in some Zone training as I remember a testimony and pic of him in one of the books.


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Grant D.

Al

Yes, IMO the only pics or comparisons are those we make on ourselves over time.

Josh is surely using HIT ... SS principles for his clients. However, when one begins to approach one's genetic capacity one must Focus Intensity without Outroading and be very abbreviated since one is handling(holding) relatively incredible weight. If one is outroading and heaving the weights progress will stall (even with chalk :) ).

Many confuse leanness with gains when all they have is more visible definition. However, if one down regulates volume and extends recovery one can gain within a lower calorie load ... why? ... because the exercise becomes a very small part of one's lifestyle and purpose. In my case I exercise about 250 to 300 seconds every two weeks, and I add weight almost every reocurrance with visible gains. Recall we call it Resist(ance) Exercise not Performance Exercise.

How many of you have been at a higher body weight, but stall ... and after months or years or decades of stagnation decide to "lean-out" and give-up on progress that has eluded you for a generation? You eventually look no different than the three month newbies. The solution is evident with Little, Darden, perhaps Trentine's self protocol
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Oh ok, thanks, so as far as you know, he built most of his muscle with some form or forms of HIT and some of Brian's methods?
That's really cool. Too bad he doesn't post here so we could just ask him.

==Scott==

Look back in the archives and you'll find that when Josh was on here it evolved into shouting and insult matches from both sides. Josh was pompous claiming his way was the only and best way. The clods on here argued HIT was the only way. Both sides needed reigning in. Josh and many of us have trained using varying methods. Most ways will build significant muscle if done properly.There's no magic or mystical set or rep pattern slow or fast, strict or cheating or whatever that provides super results over the others.Try different methods, find what you like and seems good for you and just keep doing it and you'll build muscle if you work hard and smart and consistent.
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Nwlifter

Yes for sure, not thinking anything about his method as an Rx, just was curious as I've yet to find someone that looks like that, FROM using super slow once a week, so it would be quite amazing if this were to ever happen.

I did search out his posts, there were a million posts, way too many to sift through so was just curious.



entsminger wrote:
Oh ok, thanks, so as far as you know, he built most of his muscle with some form or forms of HIT and some of Brian's methods?
That's really cool. Too bad he doesn't post here so we could just ask him.

==Scott==

Look back in the archives and you'll find that when Josh was on here it evolved into shouting and insult matches from both sides. Josh was pompous claiming his way was the only and best way. The clods on here argued HIT was the only way. Both sides needed reigning in. Josh and many of us have trained using varying methods. Most ways will build significant muscle if done properly.There's no magic or mystical set or rep pattern slow or fast, strict or cheating or whatever that provides super results over the others.Try different methods, find what you like and seems good for you and just keep doing it and you'll build muscle if you work hard and smart and consistent.


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HeavyHitter32

Nwlifter wrote:
Yes for sure, not thinking anything about his method as an Rx, just was curious as I've yet to find someone that looks like that, FROM using super slow once a week, so it would be quite amazing if this were to ever happen.


Yeah I've never heard of someone doing that with SS 1X week as a beginner to advance. It seems like it's always advanced trainees who move toward that approach (at least for a while).

I also think SS with conventional equipment is not optimal based on my dealings with it. Certain cammed machines are designed for it (like Josh's) where it can perhaps work better.

You take a free weight exercise where the resistance curve falls off and you're moving 10/10, it's a lot of waste of time for the muscle in those drop off points.

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Nwlifter

Success: I agree, everytime I find some BBer who uses something like this, if you look things up, you find they were usually pretty big before they started that particular method. Which means good genetics and already a lot of muscle. Many of them, you see pics of when they were teens and were twice as big as most people will ever get to in a lifetime of lifting... and they were there at like 17 years old.

SS with standard equipment: I've done it quite a few times, I found for many exercises, it's better to limit the ROM a bit to even out the curves, but then 10 seconds is too slow for a 1/2 curl, etc. I've gained using it many years ago,(more like the BIG routine though, 3x full body) but everytime, after a few weeks I just dreaded trying restrain and go that slow.


HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
Yes for sure, not thinking anything about his method as an Rx, just was curious as I've yet to find someone that looks like that, FROM using super slow once a week, so it would be quite amazing if this were to ever happen.


Yeah I've never heard of someone doing that with SS 1X week as a beginner to advance. It seems like it's always advanced trainees who move toward that approach (at least for a while).

I also think SS with conventional equipment is not optimal based on my dealings with it. Certain cammed machines are designed for it (like Josh's) where it can perhaps work better.

You take a free weight exercise where the resistance curve falls off and you're moving 10/10, it's a lot of waste of time for the muscle in those drop off points.



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DSears

Nwlifter wrote:
Success: I agree, everytime I find some BBer who uses something like this, if you look things up, you find they were usually pretty big before they started that particular method. Which means good genetics and already a lot of muscle. Many of them, you see pics of when they were teens and were twice as big as most people will ever get to in a lifetime of lifting... and they were there at like 17 years old.

SS with standard equipment: I've done it quite a few times, I found for many exercises, it's better to limit the ROM a bit to even out the curves, but then 10 seconds is too slow for a 1/2 curl, etc. I've gained using it many years ago,(more like the BIG routine though, 3x full body) but everytime, after a few weeks I just dreaded trying restrain and go that slow.





Dr. McGuff is one of the few people I'm aware of that has stuck with SS for several years. He has built an impressive physique and he has a lot of irons in the fire between his gym, his medical practice and his writing. One thing about his training is that he does include some variety in what he does. He mixes up his movements and has experimented with J-Reps.

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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Many of them, you see pics of when they were teens and were twice as big as most people will ever get to in a lifetime of lifting... and they were there at like 17 years old.

==Scott==
Training is hard but even harder is looking at these hulks like a Viator and realizing that no way in hell 99% of use are ever going to get even close to how big he was. We look at these magazines and fantasize that we can look like these giants and then after lifting a while we get disappointed that we aren't making the progress we think we should toward that goal.You just have to face it that most us us don't have that kind of potential to look anything like them.Gee, maybe if I used the new GH12 rep system or J reps or Super slow I'd start growing like the Hulk. It ain't gonna happen. You just have to be honest with yourself and be satisfied with improving your build as best you can but it ain't gonna look like Zanes or Arnold no matter what you do.
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Nwlifter

Very true. I've read most people get close to their potential (not all but most) within the first few years of proper training, and it fits. Like you mention Viator, and look at Arnold, Mentzer, Lance... when they were teens they were freaken HUGE.

Mentzer at 19
http://www.davedraper.com/...-Mentzer71b.jpg

this website says this is Arnold at 14... fourteen!
https://bashny.net/.../5918da46f4.jpg

this says this is Lance Dreher at 17
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/...246981032_n.jpg




entsminger wrote:
Many of them, you see pics of when they were teens and were twice as big as most people will ever get to in a lifetime of lifting... and they were there at like 17 years old.

==Scott==
Training is hard but even harder is looking at these hulks like a Viator and realizing that no way in hell 99% of use are ever going to get even close to how big he was. We look at these magazines and fantasize that we can look like these giants and then after lifting a while we get disappointed that we aren't making the progress we think we should toward that goal.You just have to face it that most us us don't have that kind of potential to look anything like them.Gee, maybe if I used the new GH12 rep system or J reps or Super slow I'd start growing like the Hulk. It ain't gonna happen. You just have to be honest with yourself and be satisfied with improving your build as best you can but it ain't gonna look like Zanes or Arnold no matter what you do.


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HeavyHitter32

Nwlifter wrote:
Success: I agree, everytime I find some BBer who uses something like this, if you look things up, you find they were usually pretty big before they started that particular method. Which means good genetics and already a lot of muscle. Many of them, you see pics of when they were teens and were twice as big as most people will ever get to in a lifetime of lifting... and they were there at like 17 years old.

SS with standard equipment: I've done it quite a few times, I found for many exercises, it's better to limit the ROM a bit to even out the curves, but then 10 seconds is too slow for a 1/2 curl, etc. I've gained using it many years ago,(more like the BIG routine though, 3x full body) but everytime, after a few weeks I just dreaded trying restrain and go that slow.





Yes, I think if one really wants to do SS with free weights, use a Zone Training approach to it.

My first HIT experience was with about an 8/8 cadence to failure with 14 exercises 3 times a week and it was a living hell to get through...last about three weeks and I was only 19 at the time and I was burned out mentally and physically.

I later moved to a consolidation routine at 10/10 and it was a waste of time. I found a little beefier consolidation routine with a couple of single joint moves TWICE a week with regular cadence to be much better given to me by Mentzer back in the early 90s.
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HeavyHitter32

I've been training for 27 years very consistently and always drug free. A couple of times I took off a month during that time. But most of my gains came in the first year and were rather easy and fast. Everything since then has been a struggle to get and smaller.
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Nwlifter

Agree totally on both your posts above!
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HeavyHitter32

It was SO disappointing after that first year because I figured I would just keep gaining like that for a couple of more years after and get to be a 230 muscular beast, but never happened. :(
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PTDaniel

I've ramped my volume up to 15 sets per bodypart. I'm training each muscle group 2 to 3 times per week, use mostly a rhythmic repetition cadence and outroad plenty. As my volume and frequency increase, I'm still making gains. Last weight in I was 197 pounds at 9.9% body fat per Inbody 270 scale.

I used to train once every 10 days to 3 weeks to failure or beyond on a single set and found the approach inferior to my current approach. I was lifting (and lowering and holding) impressive weights, but the muscle development increase wasn't long lasting. The highest body weight I hit was around 185 pounds.

How can you tell your muscle development increases when you're packing on fat and just using strength increases as a proxy for muscle growth? At my current body fat I can see cosmetic changes in muscle development by sight. I then use body comp analysis to quantify lean body mass increases.
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PTDaniel

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
Success: I agree, everytime I find some BBer who uses something like this, if you look things up, you find they were usually pretty big before they started that particular method. Which means good genetics and already a lot of muscle. Many of them, you see pics of when they were teens and were twice as big as most people will ever get to in a lifetime of lifting... and they were there at like 17 years old.

SS with standard equipment: I've done it quite a few times, I found for many exercises, it's better to limit the ROM a bit to even out the curves, but then 10 seconds is too slow for a 1/2 curl, etc. I've gained using it many years ago,(more like the BIG routine though, 3x full body) but everytime, after a few weeks I just dreaded trying restrain and go that slow.





Yes, I think if one really wants to do SS with free weights, use a Zone Training approach to it.

My first HIT experience was with about an 8/8 cadence to failure with 14 exercises 3 times a week and it was a living hell to get through...last about three weeks and I was only 19 at the time and I was burned out mentally and physically.

I later moved to a consolidation routine at 10/10 and it was a waste of time. I found a little beefier consolidation routine with a couple of single joint moves TWICE a week with regular cadence to be much better given to me by Mentzer back in the early 90s.


I mix SS type reps in with rhythmic reps in the same set. For instance I will do a set where I alternate 5 reps with a rhythmic cadence with 1 or 2 slow reps (usually 5/5).
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PTDaniel

DSears wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
Success: I agree, everytime I find some BBer who uses something like this, if you look things up, you find they were usually pretty big before they started that particular method. Which means good genetics and already a lot of muscle. Many of them, you see pics of when they were teens and were twice as big as most people will ever get to in a lifetime of lifting... and they were there at like 17 years old.

SS with standard equipment: I've done it quite a few times, I found for many exercises, it's better to limit the ROM a bit to even out the curves, but then 10 seconds is too slow for a 1/2 curl, etc. I've gained using it many years ago,(more like the BIG routine though, 3x full body) but everytime, after a few weeks I just dreaded trying restrain and go that slow.





Dr. McGuff is one of the few people I'm aware of that has stuck with SS for several years. He has built an impressive physique and he has a lot of irons in the fire between his gym, his medical practice and his writing. One thing about his training is that he does include some variety in what he does. He mixes up his movements and has experimented with J-Reps.



Honestly McGuff doesn't look like he even works out to me. He just looks like an average guy who "watches what he eats."
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ron33

Entsminger posted , Try different methods , find what you like and seems good for you and just keep doing it and you will build muscle if you work hard , smart and consistent ... I think that is the best idea, I have read on the internet. that's what I did when first started working out. no magic potions like some try to say .. After a long illness where I had not the strength or energy to train like I used to .. I had a few conversations with Mike Mentzer and he said almost the exact same words ...
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Nwlifter

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
It was SO disappointing after that first year because I figured I would just keep gaining like that for a couple of more years after and get to be a 230 muscular beast, but never happened. :(


I think most of us belong to that club eh? LOL
My first summer of 'real' training, I gained 12 lbs of muscle 2 months, I thought the same!

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Grant D.

No one has or can make gains with SS or HIT, when performed correctly, after two years of the protocol. If one thinks they are still making gains it is performance. HIT is now an antiquated standard that does not foster continuous progress. Back in the 80's it was the best there was, then SS ... To sustain progress one must adapt the beyond these protocols.
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Grant D.

Ent if you did max pyramid the right way you would gain.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Grant D. wrote:
Ent if you did max pyramid the right way you would gain.


==Scott==
If I did MAX pyramid or any other so called new method I might make a small gain for a short while only because it would be something different than what I was doing not because it was some new superior muscle building method. It makes sense to look for new methods to shock the muscles with something different but the idea that any one method produces vastly superior results than the others is erroneous.
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HeavyHitter32

I've switched back to a more intense, heavier, briefer type of training for now. I pretty much went stale on all forms of CFT (even with lots of variation of such mixed including zones, etc.). So far looking better again. I do think it comes down to your body getting used to things and I also think I was allowing the resistance to get a little too light.
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