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Ronnie Coleman...
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HIT

Norway

on an old nautilus machine!
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HIT

Norway

One more pic
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NeuroMass

HIT ,

Yeah I saw the the Video and when he perform that exercise it seems to me that he was just playing around with it. He may be STRONG but doesn't even train close to muscular failure.

PEACE.
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MasterChief

I saw that in his movie. I have a love-relationship to those old superset machines made by Nautilus. They where far from perfect but it doesnt matter.
My favorite was the leg extension/Leg press machine.



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bill1

California, USA

I personally believe that people like Coleman are about 99% genetics and 1% drugs. Why? well for instance you gave JIm Carey (for example) all of the newest ,most fantastic combination of drugs in the world and trained him any way you liked, he would still wouldn't be much more than Jim Carey.
Coleman has long muscle bellies,short tendons, probably has a lot of fast twitch muscle fiber type throughout his body and on top of that he probably exhibits a GENERAL response to exercise; which allows him to grow even when working in a limited range of motion. All the drugs do is allow him to tolerate all of the overtraining he does. Or in the words of Arthur Jones, he has developed what he has "literally in spite of his efforts". Imagine how he might look if he had the brains and the will to train in a proper fashion! (and he wouldn"t need the drugs either)
Bill1
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HeavyHitter32

Bill,

Despite Coleman having amazing genetics, steroids are pretty amazing too. I've seen guys with average genes gain 30 pounds of muscle on them. Jim Carey would be much bigger on them. As big as Coleman? Of course not. But, he would be bigger. As someone implied in another thread, Coleman is probably 40-50 pounds heavier because of drugs.
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rtestes

Mississippi, USA

bill1 wrote:
Imagine how he might look if he had the brains and the will to train in a proper fashion! (and he wouldn"t need the drugs either)
Bill1


Do we have any examples of those that trained in the "proper fashion" that we would want to display? I haven't seen anyone that wasn't tained by volume training and/or drugs that made the top of the ladder. I wish someone would start their son on HIT and prove your premise.
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bill1

California, USA

I have seen photos of John McWilliams whose biceps were literally the size of grapefruits. These photos were taken at least a decade before the advent of steroids. (his triceps weren't bad either) The premise that outstanding levels of muscular size can be achieved without the use of drugs has been proven many times over.
What you are asking is that someone, who has the potential for great muscular size, also have the ability of indipendant thought. Both are rare traits with the latter being even more scarce than the former. Coleman obviously has the potential for great size ,but he is also very smooth. Why? Perhaps it is because the IFBB has banned diuretics in order to avoid any more deaths on stage. Steroids cause a large degree of fluid retention. If you look at the same competitors today in comparison to thier recent past you will notice a dramatic difference in thier appearance.Cut before the diuretic ban, smooth after.
I maintain that if someone has the potential to reach a certain size that they can actualize that size without drugs. But they must train properly in order to do so. Like it or not the world is black and white, 1+1=2, A is A. Thats it. And there is plenty of research that demonstrates what effective training consists of as opposed to annecdotal evidence.
Why do all the top bodybuilders take drugs? Because they all do. Does that mean it is the only way to reach the top? If everyone believed that the sun revolved around the earth would that make it so? Do bodybuilders on steroids actually have greater "muscular " size than they would without them or are they just holding a lot of fluid?

Bill1

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NeuroMass

bill1 wrote:
I personally believe that people like Coleman are about 99% genetics and 1% drugs. Why? well for instance you gave JIm Carey (for example) all of the newest ,most fantastic combination of drugs in the world and trained him any way you liked, he would still wouldn't be much more than Jim Carey.
Coleman has long muscle bellies,short tendons, probably has a lot of fast twitch muscle fiber type throughout his body and on top of that he probably exhibits a GENERAL response to exercise; which allows him to grow even when working in a limited range of motion. All the drugs do is allow him to tolerate all of the overtraining he does. Or in the words of Arthur Jones, he has developed what he has "literally in spite of his efforts". Imagine how he might look if he had the brains and the will to train in a proper fashion! (and he wouldn"t need the drugs either)
Bill1


Bill1,

Have you seen photos of Ronnie Coleman before when he was still NATURAL (or claimed to be)? I must agree we looked amazing then but very far from waht he is now. He use to compete at about 240 lbs. and not as DENSE and RIPPED as he is now.

The fact are DRUGS are very powerful and dangerous compounds and it could make up as much as 30% of a Pro-bodybuilder's development. I beleive to be a succesful pro bodybuilder these days you must have GREAT GENETICS, DECIPLINE, DRIVE and a lot of DRUGS! These guys are JUICED to the gills! They stack different kinds of Steroids with HGH, INSULIN, IGF-1, THYROID hormones, DNP, Prostaglandins and some even use these OIL INJECTIONS just to enhance thier appearance.
So don't be decieved drugs has a lot to do with that FREAKY, UNNATURAL look we often see with Pros today.

PEACE.
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HIT

Norway

Would a bodybuilder like Coleman be bigger with HIT?? I think not, but maybe he would have got his results a little quicker and maybe not spend as much time in the gym.

Here's a pic of Cormier from his dvd on a nautilus pulldown.
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NeuroMass

HIT wrote:
Would a bodybuilder like Coleman be bigger with HIT?? I think not, but maybe he would have got his results a little quicker and maybe not spend as much time in the gym.

Here's a pic of Cormier from his dvd on a nautilus pulldown.


HIT,

With all the DRUGS they're taking who knows how HUGE they could become! One thing's for sure they did not attain taht kind of development through sheer GENETICS and training alone.

PEACE.
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HeavyHitter32

I maintain that if someone has the potential to reach a certain size that they can actualize that size without drugs.

Steroids dramatically increase your body's protein rate sythesis to such a degree that is impossible to do naturally. We are talking about *synthetially derived compounds* which mimic the anabolic effects of testosterone --- the key hormone to musculature.

You aren't going to accomplish this same effect of steroids no matter how intense your workouts are, or how many protein shakes you drink.


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HIT

Norway

One more Cormier
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bill1

California, USA

No one can EXCEED their potential that is simply a fact that is not subject to change, no matter what they do or what they take. If by nature you have the potential to become a certain size it only stands to reason that you can become that size. Once again steroids allow you to get away with overtraining. But overtraining in and of itself will produce nothing in the form of gains. The side effects of all the drugs do not create the best appearance one can attain. Growth hormone enlarges the liver and the spleen causing the 42" waist. The smooth look caused by fluid retention can only be overcome by diuretics. If taking all this crap and training with high volume, like a pussy, were all it took to create a massive physique thier would be a lot more top guys. Thier are billions of people in the world and many more are wieght training than ever before and drugs are more available than they were before the ban. So why are thier only a handful of top guys?

Bill1
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rtestes

Mississippi, USA

bill1 wrote:
No one can EXCEED their potential. If taking all this crap and training with high volume, like a pussy, were all it took to create a massive physique thier would be a lot more top guys. Thier are billions of people in the world and many more are wieght training than ever before and drugs are more available than they were before the ban. So why are thier only a handful of top guys?

Bill1


Desire to achieve it. Can you imagine how many Babe Ruths never had a desire to play baseball? You underestimate the power of drugs.

If HIT offers the ability to succeed in physical development, what examples do we offer untainted by drugs or volume training? Who in the last 35 years or so has climbed to the top using HIT alone? I am afraid the answer is no one. The real question is why? That question should be asked to those that have had the potential and the knowledge and didn't act on it. Why not ask Coe and Viator for insight?
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Max

Oklahoma, USA

rtestes wrote:

If HIT offers the ability to succeed in physical development, what examples do we offer untainted by drugs or volume training? Who in the last 35 years or so has climbed to the top using HIT alone? I am afraid the answer is no one. The real question is why? That question should be asked to those that have had the potential and the knowledge and didn't act on it. Why not ask Coe and Viator for insight?



Well, my answer to that question is that HIT is not the best method for size. Strength, yes, size, no. Just from my own personal experience I have made great strength gains when using HIT but not much in way of size. It worked for size when I was a beginner then I stalled out after gaining about 15lbs. When I finally decided to up the volume put on a little more than 40lbs. I still do cycles of HIT (I'm using it now) and never gain any size. I still do the HIT cycles for a change of pace or when I have time constraints due to my schedule, and the increased strength really helps when I up the volume again.

But I'm not going to argue with anyone over this, everyone can do whatever they want. I just wish some people wouldn't be so narrow minded, there are a lot of training methods that work and HIT is not the be all, end all of training. I should mention that I don't follow the crap routines you see in the magazines. When I talk about higher volume I'm mean things like the old 5x5, 10x3, etc. And there are a lot of great workouts over on T-Mag.


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HeavyHitter32

bill1 wrote:
No one can EXCEED their potential that is simply a fact that is not subject to change, no matter what they do or what they take. If by nature you have the potential to become a certain size it only stands to reason that you can become that size. Once again steroids allow you to get away with overtraining. But overtraining in and of itself will produce nothing in the form of gains. The side effects of all the drugs do not create the best appearance one can attain. Growth hormone enlarges the liver and the spleen causing the 42" waist. The smooth look caused by fluid retention can only be overcome by diuretics. If taking all this crap and training with high volume, like a pussy, were all it took to create a massive physique thier would be a lot more top guys. Thier are billions of people in the world and many more are wieght training than ever before and drugs are more available than they were before the ban. So why are thier only a handful of top guys?

Bill1


Bill,

A handful of top guys? Depends how you define it. Bodybuilders are FAR FAR larger today than back in the 60's. Compare the top 10 guys of today to the top 10 guys of the 50's or 60' (or 70's and 80's and 90's for that matter!!). While it's true the gene pool has grown since more people are into bodybuilding these days and the population has increased, it is obvious that genetic freaks such as Casey Viator and Sergio Oliva are almost migets compared to Ronnie Coleman and some of these other near 300 pound bodybuilders. When Arnold was in his competitive peak at 230 or so pounds, that would be MUCH too thin for today's standards at a height 6'1.

Have you been around bodybuilders or trainees who have taken steroids? Have you had experience with some of these people? I have. I have seen people gain 25-35 pounds of muscle in a matter of a couple of months -- experienced trainees as well. This would have NEVER been possible otherwise. I have seen this verified on electrical impedance BF composition machines. I've also seen strength increases fly through the roof with these.

While no one is suggesting that one will become a champ on steroids, steroids will allow you to reach a level that would have not been possible naturally. We are talking about synthetic compounds which alter your body's chemistry.We are talking about CHANGING YOUR BODY'S RATE OF PROTEIN SYNTHESIS! You cannot do this naturally. You are, in essence, denying the facts of science and reality here. Steroids have been around for years and have been used in a variety of manners and ways to increase lean body mass --- not just in bodybuilding, but legitimate medical reasons, as well. There is a good reason why they exist.

Also, there is a genetic component to steroids as well. Some people respond better to them than others due to better receptors, etc. NO different than with any other type of drug or compound. Some people respond differently to certain medications that otherwise. I'm sure you know people who can't take certain medications or simply don't respond as well to them.

Drugs allow the body to do things and make changes that would NEVER have been possible before. Pharmaceuticals exist for good reason.
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HeavyHitter32

I forgot to add in my previous post -- steroids and other growth drugs are much more rampant today and are more powerful than back in the day of Oliva or Arnold. Also, they are more widespread. Even baseball players are on them today breaking home run records that were never even approached for many, many years. Barry Bonds is a perfect example.
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bill1

California, USA

Over the years I have trained a number of people almost all of whom were competative bodybuilders. At the time steroid use was very limited and more of a rumor than anything else. If you could find a doctor who would prescribe them you could buy and use them for any reason. Many bodybuilders looked at them as merley another supplement.
Out of all the guys I trained most won or placed in local and national titles. Few used drugs. What they all had in common besides good genetics was the desire to work hard. But only one guy was willing and able to perform what I then called an Arthur Jones workout from start to finish. Within a matter of months he put on about twenty pounds and became much leaner than he had been previously. He was cut to the bone,shredded, ripped, diced, sliced, whatever you want to call it; he was muscular. He then proceeded to win two state contests in a row, no problem. He was far and away the best of the bunch. At a height of 5'7" he claimed to weigh 210 and to possess a 18,1/2" arm.
Not a soul doubted it. But I measured his arm at 16,3/4" and his wieght was actually 185 on the button.
Shortly after his biggest win he decide he wanted to train for the Mr. A
but he had "learned" that Arnold was using winsterol and Oliva was using decca. And both were training with double split high volume routines 6 days a week. So he found a doctor that would prescribe Decca and started training the way Arnold did. Did he get bigger? Yeah he did ,but it sure wasn't muscle. His measurements increased but he was smooth ,not fat ,just bloated with water. He placed 13th in the 1982 Mr. A. If he would have entered in his previous shape I have no doubt he would have placed much higher or perhaps even won.
So whats the point? The measurements and wieghts you read about are lies. How tall is Arnold or Ferrigno? I have stood next to both of them and they are not as tall as they claim to be. So whats a lie about a few inches or so in hieght or arm size? No big deal.
And I've heard all the jargon about synthesis and receptors and emgs etc. Why do they give steroids to AIDS patients burn victims etc.? To prevent muscle WASTING. If anyone wants to believe that the only way to build large muscular size is through drugs then, like Ronnie Coleman ,the only thing "thats just a peanut" is the thing between your ears.
And by the way the stuff about Babe Ruth etc. those guys didn't train at all! They believed wieght training would make you muscle bound. So are drugs the major difference or is it training? If Michael Jordan took steroids would he have been able to jump higher? He certainly couldn't have played baseball any worse. To paraphrase what somebody once said "put an ampule of whatever under a barbell and see how far it will lift the bar."
Bill1
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NeuroMass

bill1 wrote:
No one can EXCEED their potential that is simply a fact that is not subject to change, no matter what they do or what they take. If by nature you have the potential to become a certain size it only stands to reason that you can become that size. Once again steroids allow you to get away with overtraining. But overtraining in and of itself will produce nothing in the form of gains. The side effects of all the drugs do not create the best appearance one can attain. Growth hormone enlarges the liver and the spleen causing the 42" waist. The smooth look caused by fluid retention can only be overcome by diuretics. If taking all this crap and training with high volume, like a pussy, were all it took to create a massive physique thier would be a lot more top guys. Thier are billions of people in the world and many more are wieght training than ever before and drugs are more available than they were before the ban. So why are thier only a handful of top guys?

Bill1


Bill1,

DRUGS could oviously allow you to go past your NATURAL GENETIC POTENTIAL. It actually changes the body's METABOLIC status. With drugs (steroids,HGH, etc.) you can actaully change your body's METABOLIC status.

The effect of drugs on the REVCOVERY ABILITY is just one of the many factors that is affected by DRUG use in bodybuilding. In fact it could change the way you progess nutrients (nutrient partitioning) and retain as much NITROGEN in the body as possible. HORMONES are pretty powerful drugs and no NATURAL method could ever duplicate it's effects.

I rememebr an interview of Mike Mentzer before where he related his own experience with steroids. He said that it made a whole lot ofdiffernce when he took drugs during competition because when he is not on drugs he loses a lot of muscle size when he dieted for a contest but with DRUGS he even gained MASS even on a VERY LOW CALORIE diet! Mind you he was just talking Anabolic Steroids now most of the TOP PROS are using a lot more steroids and other kinds of drugs!

PEACE.
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bill1

California, USA

NeuroMass wrote:



,

DRUGS could oviously allow you to go past your NATURAL GENETIC POTENTIAL. It actually changes the body's METABOLIC status. With drugs (steroids,HGH, etc.) you can actaully change your body's METABOLIC status.

The effect of drugs on the REVCOVERY ABILITY is just one of the many factors that is affected by DRUG use in bodybuilding. In fact it could change the way you progess nutrients (nutrient partitioning) and retain as much NITROGEN in the body as possible. HORMONES are pretty powerful drugs and no NATURAL method could ever duplicate it's effects.

I rememebr an interview of Mike Mentzer before where he related his own experience with steroids. He said that it made a whole lot ofdiffernce when he took drugs during competition because when he is not on drugs he loses a lot of muscle size when he dieted for a contest but with DRUGS he even gained MASS even on a VERY LOW CALORIE diet! Mind you he was just talking Anabolic Steroids now most of the TOP PROS are using a lot more steroids and other kinds of drugs!

PEACE.


Sorry but ,thats not true . Your ability to increase the size of any given muscle is limited by the amount you can expand the width, because you cannot ,repeat, cannot increase the length.And the length in turn limits the potential width.In an adult ( with the exception of giantism) there simply is no such thing as the potential to increase a muscles lenght. That is simply a fact that is not subject to change no matter what magazines you read, or how much you pray or wish or whatever you might do.

Bill1
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bill1

California, USA

A final note:

It is now well documented with numerous legitimate studies that almost anybody with very few exceptions can increase thier muscular size and strength,if they follow a certain method of training.
And that method of training is not high volume and it does not involve drugs.
For anyone to state that only the top guys in the bodybuilding world have reached their own individual potential for size is ludicrous on the face of it. And to the further surmise that as all of these dummies take drugs that you can only attain full potential by taking drugs is just plain stupid.
Or would you have me believe that as all men are animals and as all horses are animals therefore all men are horses? Some are horses asses but that is not the point.

Bill1
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NewYorker

New York, USA

"Sorry but ,thats not true . Your ability to increase the size of any given muscle is limited by the amount you can expand the width because you cannot ,repeat, cannot increase the length.And the length in turn limits the potential width. That is simply a fact that is not subject to change no matter what magazines you read, or how much you pray or wish or whatever you might do.

Bill1 "

Yep. If we learn one thing about bodybuilding that should be it. Of course, the drug/supplement companies and distributers have billions of dollars to lose if enough people catch on to this simple fact.

A muscle's width can only grow to a certain proportion of its length. A muscle's length is fixed. You can reach this limit through proper training, rest, seven or eight hours of sleep a night and a normal healty diet. You do not need drugs or supplements.

I will never have 20 inch upper arms. I will never be 7 feet tall. I will never be a grand master in chess.

Everyone has their own genetic strengths and weaknesses. I am gifted in some areas, average in most and weak in others.
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HeavyHitter32

And that method of training is not high volume and it does not involve drugs.
For anyone to state that only the top guys in the bodybuilding world have reached their own individual potential for size is ludicrous on the face of it. And to the further surmise that as all of these dummies take drugs that you can only attain full potential by taking drugs is just plain stupid.


Bill,

No one is saying that, nor is anyone implying you will become Mr. Olympia on drugs either. All that some of us are saying is that steroids work and no matter how big you get naturally, you will be even bigger on roids. I have seen this happen and it's quite obvious to almost anyone. It's backed up by the scientific and medical community, as well as almost everyone's personal experience I have to talked to, including mine.

I am willing to bet that the *average* male trainee could gain an ADDITIONAL 30 pounds of muscle on steroids that would have not been possible training naturally. I have seen this happen and have talked to enough people who would probably agree. Again, this is just an average estimate. There will be people who gain less and there will be people who gain more. Much of this depends on your current size, genetics, receptors, etc. Again, there is also a genetic component to steroids as well.

I would argue that someone who doesn't have decent muscle belly length and takes steroids will not look good aesthically. I have seen bodybuilders take on a "chimpanzee" look...shorter, knotty-plumplike muscles, instead of longer, fuller -- more pleasing aesthically.

As big as you can get naturally, you WILL be bigger on steroids. You will have more lean body mass and greater strength.

To quote someone:

"Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining."

;-)
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rtestes

Mississippi, USA

bill1 wrote: For anyone to state that only the top guys in the bodybuilding world have reached their own individual potential for size is ludicrous on the face of it. And to the further surmise that as all of these dummies take drugs that you can only attain full potential by taking drugs is just plain stupid.
Bill1


Bill,
Who would you point out that has built their size and strength to their potential without drugs or volume training? I just want some good examples to tell people about. Even Dr. Darden might have a problem with this one.

Right now, HIT produces average good results or a number of people are hiding their talents under a bushel for some reason. Can you help me with some good examples of elite bodies built by HIT?
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