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Determine the Length of Your Workouts

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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

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Sesame

Drew Baye wrote:
Sesame wrote:
I think you might be overstepping your knowledge at this point especially since you are not nor have you ever been a distance runner.

This is based on the experiences of several SS instructors who've worked with endurance athletes who've improved their performance doing just that.

In fact, in college my brother took an exercise and conditioning related course, and the instructor required the entire class to run regularly during the semester. My brother refused, and told the instructor that he was already doing other conditioning (at the time he was using SuperSlow HIT, once or twice a week, and doing NO running at all). At the end of the semester, everybody was tested on the 2-mile run. Bill's time was way below everyone elses in class except for one student who was there on a CC scholarship, and he was only a short way behind him.

Drew Baye



That's great story! Ok, let's see how well YOU do for a five mile run? Game??
;)

Seriously, all the best to your brother BUT pointing to HIM as proof that most "endurance runners" run too much and can cut back to once or twice a week (i think you said) is like pointing to a single powerlifter and saying "See! That's how you have to train!"
:)

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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Sesame wrote:
"Kenyan runners, and especially those originating from the Kalenjin tribe, have dominated international middle- and long-distance running for over 40 years, prompting significant interest in the factors contributing to their success."

This just the HIT vs. HVT argument applied to running. Sure high-volume will get you there, but at what costs? At the very least you're talking about a great consumption of time. At the worst, you're talking about unnecessary punishment of your joints and connecting tissues.

As far as the Kenyans are concerned, the factors contributing to their success could NOT be duplicated in any one person's lifetime. This SKILL, was developed over many, many generations --- so many generations, in fact, that their running abilities are probably as much evolutionary as they are training related.

There's no big "secret" there, pal --- they ran their whole lives, their fathers ran, their grandfathers ran, and so on. I'm not Jimmy-the-Greekin' ya when I say that their breeding circle is very, very tight.

No melting pot mutt who contributes to this forum could EVER match their running prowess even with "the perfect program" --- even if one existed. Therefore, using the Kenyans as your big arguement-ending trump card is at best a flawed strategy and at worst totally irrelevant.

Scott
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bill1

California, USA

Acerimmer1 wrote:
Ciccio wrote:
Acerimmer,

are your wrists fully supinated on that pic? If so you have really long biceps! Be happy!

Propably you're right with assuming the impression of elongated biceps is due to your forearms(they look quite big as well) grow bigger.
If anything at all, muscle bellies will shorten over time from aging. Visible elongation due to training is just not possible.


Franco



More supination is possible but uncumfortable, my forearm also shakes around. I don't really know if full supination for you and me is the same because I have a limited ROM in my elbow as compared to most according to what I read (it may have been something by Jones) my elbow joint only flexes to an angle which is probably not much less than 80 degrees, and is undoubtably greater than 45 degrees. Because our bones are obscured by our muscles though it's not easy for me to tell exactly where it lies but I'd say probably between 70 and 55 degrees.

Looking closely I think it's a little more supinated than the photo of Caseys arm Darden uses as a guide on page 56 of the New HIT.

I'm happy with that explanation about my forearms, I wouldn't rule out a surgical solution for lomg tendons in the future. I think more research is needed in general!



I'll rule it out. Surgical elongation of muscle for cosmetic purposes will never happen , it is not feasable. Surgical " shortening " of a long tendon will never happen ,for cosmetic purposes, either as the result would be a grotesque limb , incapable of full extension.

In the Yates photos , it is prettty obvious that the mass of his forearms have increased dramatically giving the appearance of a difference in trained and untrained bicep length.

How old is Yates in the seated photo ? 13, 14 maybe?

Bill
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Drew Baye

Florida, USA

Sesame wrote:

Seriously, all the best to your brother BUT pointing to HIM as proof that most "endurance runners" run too much and can cut back to once or twice a week (i think you said) is like pointing to a single powerlifter and saying "See! That's how you have to train!"
:)



Apparently you missed the part where I said, "This is based on the experiences of several SS instructors who've worked with endurance athletes who've improved their performance doing just that."

As for the 5 mile run, no thanks. I like my knees the way they are.

Drew Baye
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Sesame

simon-hecubus wrote:
Sesame wrote:
"Kenyan runners, and especially those originating from the Kalenjin tribe, have dominated international middle- and long-distance running for over 40 years, prompting significant interest in the factors contributing to their success."

This just the HIT vs. HVT argument applied to running. Sure high-volume will get you there, but at what costs? At the very least you're talking about a great consumption of time. At the worst, you're talking about unnecessary punishment of your joints and connecting tissues.

As far as the Kenyans are concerned, the factors contributing to their success could NOT be duplicated in any one person's lifetime. This SKILL, was developed over many, many generations --- so many generations, in fact, that their running abilities are probably as much evolutionary as they are training related.

There's no big "secret" there, pal --- they ran their whole lives, their fathers ran, their grandfathers ran, and so on. I'm not Jimmy-the-Greekin' ya when I say that their breeding circle is very, very tight.

No melting pot mutt who contributes to this forum could EVER match their running prowess even with "the perfect program" --- even if one existed. Therefore, using the Kenyans as your big arguement-ending trump card is at best a flawed strategy and at worst totally irrelevant.

Scott



Running is as big a part of your evolution as it is theirs. Only 'recently' have we stopped running but they haven't.

I find it interesting that many here rail against running, a very natural activity (probably more natural than weightlifting)as inherently damaging to joints and connective tissue; and complain that it is entirely unnecessary for fitness yet very few of you have become fit enough to do it (run 5 miles)with what you are now using (weightlifting).

If your weightlifting routines are sufficient to make you cardio fit then I ask why aren't you able do it?
:|
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Sesame

Drew Baye wrote:
Sesame wrote:

Seriously, all the best to your brother BUT pointing to HIM as proof that most "endurance runners" run too much and can cut back to once or twice a week (i think you said) is like pointing to a single powerlifter and saying "See! That's how you have to train!"
:)



Apparently you missed the part where I said, "This is based on the experiences of several SS instructors who've worked with endurance athletes who've improved their performance doing just that."

As for the 5 mile run, no thanks. I like my knees the way they are.

Drew Baye


I didn't miss it.

While I don't doubt for a minute there exist endurance athletes that overtrain, just as there are in any class of atheletes, but a blanket statement that all runners should immediately reduce their training to once or twice a week (based on the "experiences of several SS instructors") and all those that do will experience great performance improvement is a bit overreaching and unfounded, imo.
:)
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Sesame wrote:
Running is as big a part of your evolution as it is theirs. Only 'recently' have we stopped running but they haven't.

I find it interesting that many here rail against running, a very natural activity (probably more natural than weightlifting)as inherently damaging to joints and connective tissue; and complain that it is entirely unnecessary for fitness yet very few of you have become fit enough to do it (run 5 miles)with what you are now using (weightlifting).

If your weightlifting routines are sufficient to make you cardio fit then I ask why aren't you able do it?
:|

You missed my point. I wasn't railing against running. No one will argue that running makes for great cardio fitness --- it just comes with great costs.

I was railing against your argument that we could all be great marathoners if we trained like the Kenyans, which is BS. You could train 10 years straight "with their methods" and be in the best possible condition, and still never duplicate their results. That's evolution.

Scott
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Sesame

simon-hecubus wrote:
Sesame wrote:
Running is as big a part of your evolution as it is theirs. Only 'recently' have we stopped running but they haven't.

I find it interesting that many here rail against running, a very natural activity (probably more natural than weightlifting)as inherently damaging to joints and connective tissue; and complain that it is entirely unnecessary for fitness yet very few of you have become fit enough to do it (run 5 miles)with what you are now using (weightlifting).

If your weightlifting routines are sufficient to make you cardio fit then I ask why aren't you able do it?
:|
You missed my point. I wasn't railing against running. No one will argue that running makes for great cardio fitness --- it just comes with great costs.

I was railing against your argument that we could all be great marathoners if we trained like the Kenyans, which is BS. You could train 10 years straight "with their methods" and be in the best possible condition, and still never duplicate their results. That's evolution.

Scott


Simon, I never meant to imply that we'd all become world class marathoners or even should if we could, just like you will never be a dorian yates no matter how you train.

My point is several fold:

1) I know many of you [mistakenly] think you're fit, when you are clearly not. If you were, you could run 5 miles if you wanted to.

2) ENDURANCE running provides fitness bennies that are difficult [probably IMPOSSIBLE] to duplicate with any other activity. Lower BP and lower pulse pressures are two that i can mention offhand.

I question the assumption that running is automatically associated with damaged joints and connective tissue.

(And you MIGHT be able to accomplish smthg CLOSE enough to TRUE running on the treadmill ...)
:)
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Acerimmer1

Sesame wrote

I find it interesting that many here rail against running, a very natural activity (probably more natural than weightlifting)as inherently damaging to joints and connective tissue; and complain that it is entirely unnecessary for fitness yet very few of you have become fit enough to do it (run 5 miles)with what you are now using (weightlifting).

My reply is one fold:

I don't think running is the problem, at least in terms of injury, it's the surfaces people tend to do it on that cause problems.



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amg455

Sesame wrote:
Drew Baye wrote:
Sesame wrote:

Seriously, all the best to your brother BUT pointing to HIM as proof that most "endurance runners" run too much and can cut back to once or twice a week (i think you said) is like pointing to a single powerlifter and saying "See! That's how you have to train!"
:)


Apparently you missed the part where I said, "This is based on the experiences of several SS instructors who've worked with endurance athletes who've improved their performance doing just that."

As for the 5 mile run, no thanks. I like my knees the way they are.

Drew Baye

I didn't miss it.

While I don't doubt for a minute there exist endurance athletes that overtrain, just as there are in any class of atheletes, but a blanket statement that all runners should immediately reduce their training to once or twice a week (based on the "experiences of several SS instructors") and all those that do will experience great performance improvement is a bit overreaching and unfounded, imo.
:)



You always miss the point and it's called genetics. You CAN'T duplicate it and I sure as hell ain't gonna try. Runners are grossly overtrained. End of the MF story.


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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

How in the fuck did a discussion on ectomorphs and HGs turn into this?

Congratulations, Sesame. With the post about how you wish you looked like Dolph Lundgren, you sucessfully derailed the discussion onto a different set of tracks entirely.

You give new meaning to the term "attention deficit disorder".

Scott
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eintology

California, USA

You guys were talking about elongating bones, muscles, and tendons through surgery. There is this one guy at Gold's Venice who wants to have some type of radical surgery performed on himself to make his entire pelvis narrower. Not look narrower, made narrower; by bringing in the bones at the hips and illiac crest. I am not kidding.

In Gold's, sometimes one is privy to conversations and information one doesn't necessarily want to hear about, and this was one of those times. Can you imagine the scarring? He too is calling himself a Hard Gainer, but obviously this is more a case of a No Brain - er.

Erik
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eintology

California, USA

amg455 wrote:

End of the MF story.



Okay, that's the end of the Monday through Friday story, but what about Saturday and Sunday (rrr.)?

E

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Sesame

I haven't missed one single point but you obviously can't read. Can't duplicate what? What are you talking about?? How about *you*? Can a guy that eats NO CARBS run 5 miles?
:)
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eintology

California, USA

sinan wrote:
The point that you raised about reaching the highly competitive/elite/world class level in an endurance event - triathlon, rowing, running, etc. by encorporating HIT while aproximating the distance and intensity of the racing distance is what I am trying to reconcile. I know that HIT works, i am also very aware of overtraining (although it should be noted that my body can endure high volumes of aerobic and resistance training - my old workout is 15 miles a day 6 days a week 10 sets of 35 pushups with 2 minutes rest in between sets 3 days a week M-W-F). HIT seems logical BUT you have to put in the miles if for nothing else but for the psychological and physiological adaptation of prolonged strength endurance work in high temperatures.


I may be wrong, but I think this might have been directed toward me?

Yeah, I mean as I said several posts up above, if you look at the way people like Mark Allen, Lance Armstrong and you yourself train, it requires enormous volumes of work, because the activity itself is so incredibly grueling. I am the first one to appreciate the less is more approach, but I don't think it applies in quite the same for what you are trying to accomplish.

To me anyway, it seems as though the training would have to approximate the demand of the competition. The ultra endurance athletes lift weights, but the endurance training definitely takes precedence over this. Now of course one could say they are all training wrong, but I am not going to be the person to say that. I mean some of those Alpine hills they climb in the Tour de France are difficult to manage even in an Opel (and that's after the Opel has had a tune up), let alone on a bicycle.

Erik
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Sesame

eintology wrote:
sinan wrote:
The point that you raised about reaching the highly competitive/elite/world class level in an endurance event - triathlon, rowing, running, etc. by encorporating HIT while aproximating the distance and intensity of the racing distance is what I am trying to reconcile. I know that HIT works, i am also very aware of overtraining (although it should be noted that my body can endure high volumes of aerobic and resistance training - my old workout is 15 miles a day 6 days a week 10 sets of 35 pushups with 2 minutes rest in between sets 3 days a week M-W-F). HIT seems logical BUT you have to put in the miles if for nothing else but for the psychological and physiological adaptation of prolonged strength endurance work in high temperatures.

I may be wrong, but I think this might have been directed toward me?

Yeah, I mean as I said several posts up above, if you look at the way people like Mark Allen, Lance Armstrong and you yourself train, it requires enormous volumes of work, because the activity itself is so incredibly grueling. I am the first one to appreciate the less is more approach, but I don't think it applies in quite the same for what you are trying to accomplish.

To me anyway, it seems as though the training would have to approximate the demand of the competition. The ultra endurance athletes lift weights, but the endurance training definitely takes precedence over this. Now of course one could say they are all training wrong, but I am not going to be the person to say that. I mean some of those Alpine hills they climb in the Tour de France are difficult to manage even in an Opel (and that's after the Opel has had a tune up), let alone on a bicycle.

Erik



Very good points! Well taken! I doubt Lance Armstrong is going to become fitter and improve on his performance by abandoning his current training protocol for one session a week! This proves my point nicely!
:)
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a.adams

South Africa

If you want to talk about the Kenyan's and their attributes, there was ones some research done in Africa that most outside Africa don't know about. They found that the East Africans were generally beter at distance or endurance competitions and the West Africans were generally beter at short or explosive competitions. One of the posible reasons found was altitude, the East African area is very mountainous and has high altitudes whereas the West African area has a much lower altitude ie. more oxygen.

The nation record for a marathon for Nigeria a country on the West coast of Africa would not even come in the top 20 of Kenya's top athletes of that year. So it all boils down to what you where born with.
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Drew Baye

Florida, USA

Sesame wrote:
I haven't missed one single point but you obviously can't read. Can't duplicate what? What are you talking about?? How about *you*? Can a guy that eats NO CARBS run 5 miles?
:)


Actually, you keep missing several.
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Acerimmer1

a.adams wrote:
If you want to talk about the Kenyan's and their attributes, there was ones some research done in Africa that most outside Africa don't know about. They found that the East Africans were generally beter at distance or endurance competitions and the West Africans were generally beter at short or explosive competitions. One of the posible reasons found was altitude, the East African area is very mountainous and has high altitudes whereas the West African area has a much lower altitude ie. more oxygen.

The nation record for a marathon for Nigeria a country on the West coast of Africa would not even come in the top 20 of Kenya's top athletes of that year. So it all boils down to what you where born with.


So is that an evolutionary adaption to altitude, a training adaption, or both?
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Acerimmer1

Oh and check this.

It's worth a read.

"Repeated contractions alter the geometry of human skeletal muscle"

http://jap.physiology.org/...tract/93/6/2089
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