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Failure<=Exhaustion??
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tylerg

Why does working out to failure cause excessive fatigue and exhaustion in some but not in others?

I have thought of this question quite often over the past couple of weeks, as there seems to be a lot of discussion revolving around this.

Wizard has just posted some good material on the working out with Intensity. Some have responded by stating that they don't feel the pain and exhaustion that others seem to feel when working to failure. Why is this?

Could it be muscle composition? Either a higher or lower percentage of ST vs FT, or any of the various combinations that may be found.

Could it be nutrition? Is the type of pre-workout eating important to how you workout and how you recover? By the same token, is your post-workout meal/drink conducive to better recovery? Do they matter that much when it comes to that "totally spent and achy" feeling that is experienced for a couple of days after. And what about total nutrition? How important is it?

Does the time of day have anything to do with how you perform and how you feel after, in recovery? Is early morning the best for muscle gain and perforance, or would afternoon be better? What about after dinner?

What effect does stress have on the revocery process? And of course, how much of a role does sleep have to play?

The endocrine system is vital for all of our bodily functions. How much does this factor into our ability to workout out and recovery? Do some people's bodies produce more "recovery" friendly hormones than others?

How much of it is mental? When I know I am about to have a bad day at work (situations that you know are going to arise) and I am not looking forward to it, I wake up and feel every ache and pain imaginable. It is a major "workout" just dragging myself out of bed. If, on the other hand, I know that good things are happening, I am up early and ready to take on the day. How much does this type of thing transfer to our workouts and recovery?

These are some questions that I have and don't have the answers for. If anyone does have any answers, please post them.

What I do know, is that everyone is different and responds to working out different. Intensity seems to be a relative term in this respect. For some, it means working to Momentary Muscular Failure. For others, perhaps one set but one rep shy of failure. Others may need more volume, perhaps two or three sets, all just one rep shy of failure.

Until we are ALL the SAME, we ALL will respond differently to different stimuli. We will recover differently as well.

One of the most important things that I have read on this forum is when Scott wrote something to the effect of "knowing his body so much better now." I don't know his body and what would be best with him. The advice that I can give him and others, is to simply lift heavy weights in a perscribed protocol for a period of time and see if it works. If not, change it and make some adaptations to what may work better.

Dr. Darden has done substantial and significant work on High Intensity Training. This method works for me. Over the years, his methods have changed, or been adjusted to accommodate greater gains. Some foundational premises remain: Work with heavy weights, use good form, train 2-3x/week, train to MMF, etc. His eating plan for fat loss is the same. The key point is: he tested things out and either made adjustments accordingly or didn't if they weren't warranted.

Thoughts?

Tyler
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noone

New York, USA

Lots of good questions. I have thought about this as well, but not to the extent you have proposed. I am one of the people you refered to as obtaining "excessive fatigue and exhaustion." One answer right off the bat: Quality of sleep. For the people who get "excessive fatigue and exhaustion," how would they rate their quality of sleep?

Oddly, I have never been a very high calorie individual. I am wondering if not enough calories are taken in each day, will recovery suffer to a greater degree? Leading to overtraining easier. Or, the other way, if you are on a low cal diet, should you avoid failure?

I am trying to loose the fat on my abs by going on a low cal diet right now. I am doing 3 workouts per week, a couple reps short of failure. This will be a good test to see if this theory works. When I reach my target, I am going to slowly add back calories and start going to failure.

Bret

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NATUREBOY

I suspect that many NTF-trainees are simply not as mentally tough as those that consistently train to failure.
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natemason5

Ontario, CAN

This what I know works for me. I've been going to failure for about 2.5 months now, and I've seen significant changes in strength. I don't feel fatigued after the workout(maybe 15 minutes after, but nothing the day after), but I also have a very high calorie intake (2500+), and most of them are before 12noon. I work out at around 4pm every monday, wednesday, friday. I 've also seen improvements in my abs, even though I've increased my calories.

Anyways...that's what works for me, but I've still got tons to learn about this.

Thanx
Nathan
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JOE W

NATUREBOY wrote:
I suspect that many NTF-trainees are simply not as mentally tough as those that consistently train to failure.


Natch,

Maybe .Or it could be that the NTF trainees are smarter.Instead of wasting years beating their bodies to a pulp on a routine that their bodies can not gain on they have found something that works better for them.
The key is are you making progress on your current routine ?
If not you are probably overtraining by training too long,too often,or too hard.
Joe

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Sesame

JOE W wrote:
NATUREBOY wrote:
I suspect that many NTF-trainees are simply not as mentally tough as those that consistently train to failure.

Natch,

Maybe .Or it could be that the NTF trainees are smarter.Instead of wasting years beating their bodies to a pulp on a routine that their bodies can not gain on they have found something that works better for them.
The key is are you making progress on your current routine ?
If not you are probably overtraining by training too long,too often,or too hard.
Joe




Think about it.. which is MORE training {overtraining?):

1)stopping one rep shy but doing 2 or 3 sets or more?

or

2)doing that extra rep to failure (w/o excessive straining} but one set per exercise?

Your NTF tarining will more quickly lead to overtraining because the volume is double or triple what you'd do with HIT.

It's only ONE rep. There's no magic in avoiding it. At least I can't see any..
:|
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NATUREBOY

I was thinking perhaps body type has to do with the level of fatigue one experiences when training to failure.

As an endomorph, I do not 'feel the burn' when exercising to failure like I would suspect other body types do. Moreover, each repetition gets progressively harder and harder until the positive movement becomes impossible, no matter how hard I try. And although I'll still be putting extra 'umph' into that last repetition, trying to cheat it up or whatever, it still doesn't 'hurt', at least not anywhere near to the degree that you guys are talking about. There is a little discomfort but nothing major. After my workout I'll drink some water, have dinner, watch tv, and go to bed. No problems. I'll be sore the next day, sure - but I make sure not to train again until at least most of the soreness has subsided.
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csmith72

Natureboy,

How many reps do you do? I feel the burn when more than 8. If I do lower reps I just can't get the weight up but there is no burn like you described.

Chris
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waynegr

Switzerland

Hi there all,

I think if you have been doing HIT for some time, say 18 months, you should be working each muscle group one time per ever 5 to 7 days on a split, I go for 7 days, and if your working like that on the basic program to failure, you should not be sore in the morning after some time, well I was not, but maybe that?s just me, but I think I am a fast recover, if you specialise you should be a bit sore.

If your still doing full body workouts, yes they are hard and quite draining physically and mentally, I do not do those anymore, I find working each bodypart one time per week on a split far better and more appealing, working this way, I did last week 33 exercises all to failure and forced reps, and without trying to be big headed there was no draining at all, in fact the opposite, lots of energy, you might look at some of the times I post my posts.

Mind you if I had to go back to 2 to 3 full body workouts per week things may be different, than its hard mentally, now for me, there is no thinking hours before I am not looking forward to the training later, it?s I cant wait to do it, then get on with other things.

Water will play a big part, lots should be consumed.

Now the pain I get is very high, that is on higher reps, doing 8 reps there is hardily any pain, but on the 9th it very quickly kicks in, big time, leg work for me is very hard, and now I am doing bioforces 30, 15 and 10 reps program, and then a nice pose at top and bottom 10 reps to finish off sometimes, say no more, well the pain is very high, but I have always been very stubborn.

If you have not got the right amount of calories, you will find it very hard to recover, and GROW; yep you will grow, but very slowly, unless you have superior geans.

Thank you Wayne
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Sesame wrote:
NATUREBOY wrote:
I suspect that many NTF-trainees are simply not as mentally tough as those that consistently train to failure.


Your NTF tarining will more quickly lead to overtraining because the volume is double or triple what you'd do with HIT.

It's only ONE rep. There's no magic in avoiding it. At least I can't see any..
:|



NB,
Apparently I was mentally tough enough to make myself sore all the time when I trained to failure. Or maybe it's just that I have too vivid of an imagination, which just made it SEEM like I was sore...


Sesame,
You're making an assumption that NTF training MUST include an increase in volume, which isn't always the case.

The recently-cited Kevin Dye was still only doing about 8-9 sets per workout. I myself continue to do 7-8 exercises per workout, one set each.

Scott
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

tylerg wrote:
[EDITED]Could it be muscle composition? Either a higher or lower percentage of ST vs FT, or any of the various combinations that may be found.

Does the time of day have anything to do with how you perform and how you feel after, in recovery? Is early morning the best for muscle gain and perforance, or would afternoon be better? What about after dinner?

What effect does stress have on the revocery process? And of course, how much of a role does sleep have to play?

How much of it is mental? When I know I am about to have a bad day at work (situations that you know are going to arise) and I am not looking forward to it, I wake up and feel every ache and pain imaginable. It is a major "workout" just dragging myself out of bed. If, on the other hand, I know that good things are happening, I am up early and ready to take on the day. How much does this type of thing transfer to our workouts and recovery?

What I do know, is that everyone is different and responds to working out different. Intensity seems to be a relative term in this respect. For some, it means working to Momentary Muscular Failure. For others, perhaps one set but one rep shy of failure. Others may need more volume, perhaps two or three sets, all just one rep shy of failure.

Until we are ALL the SAME, we ALL will respond differently to different stimuli. We will recover differently as well.

Tyler


Lots of good ideas there, Tyler. Let me address a few of them.

FIBER TYPE
I doubt you have much here. I have different fatigue responses throughout my body. However, most of my muscles test on the STF end of the scale, which would mean that I should tolerate more exercise. I can exrcise fine, it's just that to-failure training makes me sore allthe time.

Does that mean that STF muscles aren't made for HIT? I doubt it. I see Casey as a guy who must have a lot of STF muscles in his body. The 3-part leg routine of AJ's is brutal and I doubt Casey would do well with FTF leg muscles on it.

TIME OF DAY
For me, I know that this is very important. Lots of experimentation went into finding the best time of day for me.

First thing in the morning: Not awake enough, which is dangerous. I don't think weight training is a good idea on an empty stomach.

After Work: Gym's too crowded and I'm too mentally worn out for the best concentration.

Early Lunch Time: Perfect. It's at least 2.5 hours after I ate breakfast and I'm mentally and physically at my peak.
(these are my observations and not inteneded to be an Rx for anyone else).

SLEEP
One honest note on sleep is that I know I don't get enough of it, only about 6 hours a night. Unfortunately, there are personal reasons which don't allow me any more than that at this time.

I would be willing to wager that sleep is a big part of needing to back off for me. However, there were times when I got 7-8 hours and the soreness issue still loomed large for me, but my record keeping was not as specific at that time to really give very good data about it.

MENTAL
Not a problem for me. I loved working out to failure. I enjoyed feeling shaky after my workouts. I was shaky, but I was pumped-up at the same time, with a sense of satisfaction at a job well done.

The soreness for me came on the next day. A lot of it wouldn't be there when I woke up the next day, but would come on throughout the day. My legs, for instance, start feeling really sore the next evening, with the worst part getting out of bed the second day after training!

I still get sore now with NTF, but it's just enough to let me know I did a good job. I'm adding weight to at least 5 or 6 of my 7 exercises every workout. My body still has plenty to complain about ;-)

I resent any notion (not yours, by the way, Tyler) that someone is less than because they don't train-to-failure like "Real Men" do. To anyone who thinks that way: Gimme a fucking break and grow the hell up!


-------------------------------------------
You're right, everyone is different. Period. Dr. D's guidelines provide a great starting point, but there may come a time, when you must find your own way.

Hopefully we can learn from each other even while we're on our own perspective pathways. To me, that's what this forum is about.

Scott
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NeuroMass

tylerg wrote:
Why does working out to failure cause excessive fatigue and exhaustion in some but not in others?




I have thought of this question quite often over the past couple of weeks, as there seems to be a lot of discussion revolving around this.


* Well because working to muscular failure requires maximum effort and that creates a lot more stress and recovery demands not only to the muscles but also to the CNS.


Wizard has just posted some good material on the working out with Intensity. Some have responded by stating that they don't feel the pain and exhaustion that others seem to feel when working to failure. Why is this?


* Provided that you train at High Intensity exhaustion and tolerance to pain depends on each individuals training experience, physical and mental fitness and also his threshold to pain.


Could it be muscle composition? Either a higher or lower percentage of ST vs FT, or any of the various combinations that may be found.


* Maybe.

Could it be nutrition? Is the type of pre-workout eating important to how you workout and how you recover? By the same token, is your post-workout meal/drink conducive to better recovery? Do they matter that much when it comes to that "totally spent and achy" feeling that is experienced for a couple of days after. And what about total nutrition? How important is it?


* Nutrtion is also very important not only to the recovery process but also for optimum exercise performance.


Does the time of day have anything to do with how you perform and how you feel after, in recovery? Is early morning the best for muscle gain and perforance, or would afternoon be better? What about after dinner?


* I think most ideal time to train is the time of the day you are use to training in the first place. The body operates in a Rhythm and if you train on a specific time of the day your body will eventually get use to it and synchronize your body rhythm to accomodate.


What effect does stress have on the revocery process? And of course, how much of a role does sleep have to play?


* A lot. Not only physical stress but also psychological and emotional stress.


The endocrine system is vital for all of our bodily functions. How much does this factor into our ability to workout out and recovery? Do some people's bodies produce more "recovery" friendly hormones than others?



* The endocrine system is vital not only for bodybuilding but also for overall well being. Of course some people may be more efficient than others and that is quite normal.



How much of it is mental? When I know I am about to have a bad day at work (situations that you know are going to arise) and I am not looking forward to it, I wake up and feel every ache and pain imaginable. It is a major "workout" just dragging myself out of bed. If, on the other hand, I know that good things are happening, I am up early and ready to take on the day. How much does this type of thing transfer to our workouts and recovery?


* I think you have already answerd your own question.



These are some questions that I have and don't have the answers for. If anyone does have any answers, please post them.

What I do know, is that everyone is different and responds to working out different. Intensity seems to be a relative term in this respect. For some, it means working to Momentary Muscular Failure. For others, perhaps one set but one rep shy of failure. Others may need more volume, perhaps two or three sets, all just one rep shy of failure.


* We are the all the same in a sense that we all have the general blueprint of a Human Being but in that similarity thier exist awide range of variations between us.

Intensity is a given factor for hypertrophy such as the exposure to sunlight to tanning. The variation exist in our tolerance to the stress involved such as in volume, frequency and intensity.


Until we are ALL the SAME, we ALL will respond differently to different stimuli. We will recover differently as well.


* Yes thier is noi such thing as a ONE SIZE FITS ALL routine. We should experiment to find out exactly what is ideal for us. But of course the experment should always be guided by the right principles.


One of the most important things that I have read on this forum is when Scott wrote something to the effect of "knowing his body so much better now." I don't know his body and what would be best with him. The advice that I can give him and others, is to simply lift heavy weights in a perscribed protocol for a period of time and see if it works. If not, change it and make some adaptations to what may work better.

Dr. Darden has done substantial and significant work on High Intensity Training. This method works for me. Over the years, his methods have changed, or been adjusted to accommodate greater gains. Some foundational premises remain: Work with heavy weights, use good form, train 2-3x/week, train to MMF, etc. His eating plan for fat loss is the same. The key point is: he tested things out and either made adjustments accordingly or didn't if they weren't warranted.

Thoughts?

Tyler


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HamsFitness

I have a feeling it is something real simple - although most here dont like it when things are simple!

Get fitter and eat high energy food!

Fatigue is tiredness(in one of its forms) if you tire out quick - my guess is you need to get fitter - thats not an insult by the way.
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NATUREBOY

csmith72 wrote:
Natureboy,

How many reps do you do? I feel the burn when more than 8. If I do lower reps I just can't get the weight up but there is no burn like you described.

Chris


I usually do 5-7 reps per exercise, at a 4/4 cadence (40-56 second TUL).

I agree that whenever I go above 8 reps (which I do for certain body parts) I do 'feel the burn'.

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HamsFitness

the burn is you muscle building up and oxygen debt due to creatine phosphate energy system running out of phosphates and then crossing over to the anaerobic lactate energy system - burning is build up of toxins - such us co2

some peoples creatine phosphate energy system may last a little longer than others = no burn or it could simply be that people have differing pain thresholds
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