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ics1974

Bioforce and Wayne,

I have read bits and pieces about this Direct Compensation theory from a few threads and am trying to piece it all together to understand how it works.
Could you please describe in detail how this type of training works, a sample routine and any other info you can provide?

Thanks.

ICS
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waynegr

Switzerland

Hi there all,

ICS and the rest of you, hope this helps, it?s a bit long, but well worth the read.

Bioforce?s program,

John, cannot find what you wrote on the below, will look more later.
The entire stimulus for strength/hypertrophy, are there, particularly the MMT, (Maximum Muscle Tension) and MMMT (Momentary Maximum Muscle Tension)

Hope the below saves you some time.

Hope the below helps, John (bioforce) is calling his training program, Direct Compensation Training,

Bioforce?s program is basically like this, it?s roughly 1/2 rep speed, first set you do 30 reps, rest 5 to 8 minutes, add roughly 20 to 30%, then do 15 reps, rest 5 to 8 minutes, add roughly15 to 25%, then do 10 reps, then you may do a full stop sat the top and bottom set, with reduced weight.

Please you will need some break in sets, 1. Because it is HARD, 2. Because you first need to get the weights right, on all 3 to four sets.

I like to work it the way I described above, one muscle group at a time, but bioforce likes to superset see below.

Below is what bioforce wrote himself, just get ready to go to a new level of intensity and growth.

BIOFORCE WROTE.

For Muscular Hypertrophy, you need to focus on two primary areas:

1) Stressing the muscle fiber structure itself to stimulate the maximum fiber recruitment and size
2) Stress the Metabolic Support System (mitochondria, circulatory structures,etc)

To address these areas you need attempt to do the following:

1) create significant moment of MMMT. That is Momentary Maximum Muscle Tension. This will stimulate the fibers to develop maximal thickness and structure

2) Perform reps and sets to stimulate the Metabolic Support System

this will cause the internal muscle support structures to increase in size to support the "metabolic needs" of the muscle or group targeted. In order to provide this type of "dual" stimulation in a High Intensity Program, let me give a personal example of a 3 set system later below, that accomplishes it all.


DIRECT COMPENSATION is a result, stimulated by "increasing" the stimulus, beyond what previously had worked. If that previous stimulus was a single set to eccentric failure, something else has to be added.

So now we have a 26-year-old jock who has trained HIT for several years, and has harvested a high percentage of his/her capacity. There is no "SUPER" any more, only DIRECT.

This means, he/she has taken each exercise out as far as they can strength wise, and have hit a plateau where (once again) NO "SUPER" COMPENSATION takes place.

The only way to stimulate further growth is to add additional "DIRECT" stimulation. This means that to provide a stimulus that will either harvest remaining capacity, or (if possible) increase capacity a bit further (remember this guy/gal is 26, not 86)

Set One = This set acts as a warm up, (warm up, hehehe John, this by far the hardest set) and maximally stresses the musculature and all the support systems as a warm up. Which ( I though no warm up was needed, until I rested 5 minutes after the first set, then did set two, before when ever I did a warm up, I only waited about 1 minute, no wonder) is needed to achieve maximum metabolic, structural, and CNS efficiency.
Pump after the first set is pretty incredible.

Set Two = This is a maximal effort set, and the last two reps are "dead stops". While this is generally a difficult set, failure is not always the goal. If I am in a "progress" phase, I only look for a rep or couple pound increase every session.

Set Three = this set is to failure but the overload rep or weight goal is more important. Each rep is attacked with the intension of moving the weight as fast as possible. Intensity is at the level that I have to sit at the end for a few seconds and regain orientation. It is a violent, intense effort and the first two sets are staging to prepare for it. There would be NO WAY to get here in a single set.

Set Four = NOT SURE WHAT THIS IS FOR,

The Mental, Metabolic, and Motor limits are explored with this type of training and "each" can create, its own limiting factor. To reach Maximum Potential, one must be prepared to recognize the stimulus needed for the goal (load/volume/time wise) and develop each of those limiting factors to allow maximum, or high percentage results.


If we are training with the "old" HIT how can we go beyond failing at 200# x 10? By adding something, yes that's it.

That additional stimulus will produce a "DIRECT" response proportionate to the now increased or additional stimulus.

I know that this is Blasphemy to some Dogmatic HITTers, but that is how I see it.

Bioforce?s program works on the principle of "Direct Compensation" and is designed to stimulate continuous results after you have plateaued with "Single Set to Failure".

(I myself used it progressively for 16 weeks) It is BRUTAL, very, and Painful. It requires dedication to the goal and a relentless focus on each set.

The results are nothing short of phenomenal, and you will achieve your lifetime bests in each movement you have selected as "key exercises

Just make sure and throw out any and all ideas of what you thought HIGH INTENSITY was all about. This can be a whole new level, if you make sure and focus and push yourself a bit.

You must attack each set like you are running the 100m sprint and want the best "time" of your life. This MUST be done on each set. You do not let up or relax until you pass the finish line (which is the rep goal for the set).

I need to make something clear about the "high reps" perception.

I didn't set out to really do "high reps". They were a result of applying "sets to failure" to all my sets. The damndest thing happened. Weights that I thought were "HEAVY" still allowed me to do HIGH reps. I mean, if I was going to take a set to failure, and even with a heavy weight I didn't fail until 20-30 reps, what was I supposed to do???

I mean I applied taking each set (usually 3-4) to failure. Now to be sure, this was "ONLY" over two main exercises per workout and I only worked that part directly 1-2 times a week and no more.

For example if it was arm day, I would usually warm up with 135 x 15 then 205 x 15, then 225 x 5 in the CGBP (close grip bench press). I would super set this with standing E-Z Barbell curls with 105 x 15, then 135 x 15 then
155 x 15.

Well I decided to make all the sets "to failure" and things changed.
I started with 135 x 30, 205 x 15, 235 x 10 on the close grip bench super set with then 105 x 30, 135 x 15, 155 x 10 in the E-Z Curl

Hey for some "old guy" (over 50) those were pretty respectable, and you
could see I wasn't "slakin"

After around 6 months of this (give or take) I ended up:

235 x 30, 275 x 15, 325 x 5 in the CGBP and 165 x 30, 205 x 15, and 265 x 6 in the E-Z Curl

Most every workout I would also do a final set of each where I would "drop" down and do a set of "very strict" stop at the top, and stop at the bottom and pause reps.

315 x 5 CGBP (dead stopping each rep on my chest)
205 x 10 EZ curls (dead stopping each rep at the bottom)

The pump after the first set will be like no pump you have ever had!!!! BUT....you have to commit to working in the pain/burn zone on the first sets.

So don't get the idea that this is a "high rep" program. All I did, was make the warm-up set count, as well as the "approach" set. So make yourself a training schedule, and each trip to the gym, know your reps and weight goal for "EACH" set, and make it. Every set is an
opportunity to set a "new personal record".

Some workouts you'll set 6 personal records, some you'll only get 1 or 2,but all you need do is match or exceed by a rep or a pound to count the record.

This way "EVERY" workout is the best workout you ever had. Each workout is a personal record and Life is good and you are "Livin' LARGE"!!!!

If you make the record on the first set, you're pretty much guaranteed (as long as you rest long enough to recover) to either match or beat the second set, and so on to the third.

These sets then provide "DIRECT" Compensation. That is the third set, even if it is not a record will improve your ability for the first set of the next session. Once that ability has been achieved it will "cascade" to ability in the 2nd and 3rd sets, and the process continues.

Thank you Wayne
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ics1974

Wayne,

Thanks for all the info. I do have a few questions.

Should you do this program with all muscle groups or just lagging ones?

Is this program meant to be used all year long or only when at a sticking point?

How many exercises should you do per muscle group?

Thanks

ICS

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waynegr

Switzerland

Hi there,

The program is supposed to be used after you have harvested a high percentage of your capacity form training HIT for several years, but bioforce said it could be used on a beginner.

You can use it on a lagging bodypart or all your muscle, but be warned, this training is brutal, if you are not used to it you may become nauseated, doing over two bodyparts per workout is not recommended at first, if you do it on ever body part you will need to split your routine throughout the week.

You then asked me how many exercises to do per bodypart; it is a three set system, well 4,
it?s roughly 1/2 rep speed, first set you do 30 reps, rest 5 to 8 minutes, add roughly 20 to 30%, then do 15 reps, rest 5 to 8 minutes, add roughly15 to 25%, then do 10 reps, then you may do a full stop sat the top and bottom set, with reduced weight.

You take any exercise, like the squat, lateral raise or bent over row, and do the above.

Wayne
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HeavyHitter32

Wayne,

How much muscle mass and measurement increase did you gain on this program if you measured (and what tool did you use to measure)?
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Wayne,

You can't continue to ignore the 400-lb gorilla...
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Ciccio

simon-hecubus wrote:
Wayne,

You can't continue to ignore the 400-lb gorilla...


:)))
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waynegr

Switzerland

Hi there all,

Will post how much I gained thur night, very busy.


Wayne
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ics1974

Tried the workout last night. Wow what a burn you get from doing high reps.
I think I will try this for a while and see what happens.

Thanks

ICS
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

ics wrote:
Tried the workout last night. Wow what a burn you get from doing high reps.
I think I will try this for a while and see if I get what happens.

Thanks

ICS


Not to be an ass, but you could get a burn by curling 5-lb DBs for 3 minutes. It doesn't mean it's gonna make you grow.

I remain skeptical that the first of the three sets is nothing but an overdone warm-up set.

Scott
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HeavyHitter32

Ciccio wrote:
simon-hecubus wrote:
Wayne,

You can't continue to ignore the 400-lb gorilla...

:)))


400 pounds? Sheesh. This "Gorilla" is King Kong! But, I'm glad to see I'm getting some respect around here. :-)
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ics1974

Scott,

Don't worry I don't think you are an ass. ;-)

I think the reason you do the first two sets is to get your muscle in a metabolic state.
I know for a fact that I perform better when doing a work set after a warm up set compared to working out the same muscle cold.
I came across this while sampling Max-OT training.
I also found this to be true when doing multiple sets only when giving myself allot of rest between sets.
If I could get 8 reps to failure on the first set I would sometimes get 9 or 10 reps on the second set if I rested about 5-10 minutes after the first set.

Here is a test to try with your first set of the day.

Set 1-2 (12 and 10 reps respectively)
40% of my work set

Set 3 (6 reps)
65% of work set

Set 4 (3 reps)
75% of work set

Set 5 (1 rep)
90% of work set

Set 6 normal work set to failure.

Note: Rest 2 to 3 minutes between all sets and only work to failure on work set.

Let me know what happened.

ICS
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HeavyHitter32

I agree with Scott.

I tried Bioforce?s approach for several workouts; a great pump initially (soon went away), but it did nothing for size and strength (other than neural adaptation increases from doing faster reps at 1/2 versus my usual 4/4). In fact, I started looking a bit softer after several workouts (despite no change in other variables, i.e., diet, etc).

Also, I have found one set per exercise just as effective as three or four sets. Other than the occasional set extended or ?shock tactic,? I see no reason to perform more than one set to failure per exercise. I do see value of doing MULTIPLE exercises per muscle, however.

Also, I still think that slower, controlled reps around 4/4 will stimulate more growth than 1/2. The quality of contraction is greater, more demanding; thus more intense, and will stimulate more growth per unit of time. Period. This is just based on MY personal experience with MY body; I cannot speak for anyone else on this matter.
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Ciccio

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
I agree with Scott.

I tried Bioforce?s approach for several workouts; a great pump initially (soon went away), but it did nothing for size and strength (other than neural adaptation increases from doing faster reps at 1/2 versus my usual 4/4). In fact, I started looking a bit softer after several workouts (despite no change in other variables, i.e., diet, etc).

Also, I have found one set per exercise just as effective as three or four sets. Other than the occasional set extended or ?shock tactic,? I see no reason to perform more than one set to failure per exercise. I do see value of doing MULTIPLE exercises per muscle, however.

Also, I still think that slower, controlled reps around 4/4 will stimulate more growth than 1/2. The quality of contraction is greater, more demanding; thus more intense, and will stimulate more growth per unit of time. Period. This is just based on MY personal experience with MY body; I cannot speak for anyone else on this matter.



I didn't comment this bio force training up to now but what struck me imediately when reading it first time was why not to do the heavy set first?

It makes just no sense at all to tire the muscle with pumping sets before you're going heavy. If you desire a 2nd or a 3rd set(I nowadays think it doesn't matter that much if it's the same exercise or another one for the same muscle), start out with the heavy one for low reps when your muscle is fresh to achieve high muscle tension and then later perform the 2nd with high reps to stimulate the "support-systems" to a higher degree.

And I don't approve the fast (explosive) rep-speed of bio force as well. You're much better of with at least the classical 2/4.

Franco

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Ciccio

BTW, wayne, where's the beef?

Franco
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

ics wrote:
Scott,

Don't worry I don't think you are an ass. ;-)

I think the reason you do the first two sets is to get your muscle in a metabolic state.


Like that lady on the Golden Girls used to say: "What does it mean?" Metabolic State? It sounds like info-mercial BS.

ics: You can follow BioForce's program if you want, but please don't start talking like him.

Scott
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Hey, did anyone else notice that John's been gone about as long as Bill? I hope there hasn't been any foul play...
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Ciccio

simon-hecubus wrote:
ics wrote:
Scott,

Don't worry I don't think you are an ass. ;-)

I think the reason you do the first two sets is to get your muscle in a metabolic state.


ics,

Like that lady on the Golden Girls used to say: "What does it mean?" Metabolic State? It sounds like info-mercial BS.

You can follow BioForce's program if you want, but please don't start talking like him.

Scott


I'm a bit dissapointed, Scott, I thnk you should know when you got a new state in your country.

Franco


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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Ciccio wrote:

Scott

I'm a bit dissapointed, Scott, I thnk you should know when you got a new state in your country.

Franco



Sorry, man. I must have missed it - the States of Confusion and Denial have been getting all the press lately!
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ics1974

Scott,

I am willing to give Bioforces routine a go as this is something I have not tried yet and it does make sense to me.

The theory of H.I.T also sounds logical at first but in practice it only produces minimal Hypertrophy for me.
I have given Dr. Darden?s routine a go for almost 10 months with no results. I have given Heavy Duty a go with no results. I have also tried your fiber testing and TUL routine ideas with no results.

As far a H.I.T goes it does not work for me, and it does not work for many others. What should I do, continue doing H.I.T until one day when it magically starts to work?

I would like to see one person that started from a beginner level get huge from training H.I.T. And please don't point me to someone that already was huge via volume and then claimed that H.I.T made them this way.

Another thing about one set to failure. All the studies you guys mention say there is no significant difference between one set and three, yet they all do show the three set group did have better gains. Not much but definitely better. Why is this not significant? If there is any improvement whatsoever between one set or three then that is very significant and does prove one is superior to the other.

ICS


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HeavyHitter32

ics wrote:
Scott,

I am willing to give Bioforces routine a go as this is something I have not tried yet and it does make sense to me.

The theory of H.I.T also sounds logical at first but in practice it only produces minimal Hypertrophy for me.
I have given Dr. Darden?s routine a go for almost 10 months with no results. I have given Heavy Duty a go with no results. I have also tried your fiber testing and TUL routine ideas with no results.

As far a H.I.T goes it does not work for me, and it does not work for many others. What should I do, continue doing H.I.T until one day when it magically starts to work?

I would like to see one person that started from a beginner level get huge from training H.I.T. And please don't point me to someone that already was huge via volume and then claimed that H.I.T made them this way.

Another thing about one set to failure. All the studies you guys mention say there is no significant difference between one set and three, yet they all do show the three set group did have better gains. Not much but definitely better. Why is this not significant? If there is any improvement whatsoever between one set or three then that is very significant and does prove one is superior to the other.

ICS





Scott, check out some the IART materials. Regarding the studies, about 15% show multiple sets with insignificantly better increases. The overall percentage is so small it doesn't mean much. Also, Doing one set per muscle is MUCH different than doing one set PER EXERCISE for MULTIPLE exercises. In other words, doing one set of bench press for chest is nothing like doing one set of flyes, one set of decline press, and one set of incline presses. Know what I mean? One set needs to be defined within context and most of these studies didn't define it all that well anyway.

I DO NOT think one set per muscle is optimal for most people.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

HeavyHitter32 wrote:

Scott, check out some the IART materials. Regarding the studies, about 15% show multiple sets with insignificantly better increases. The overall percentage is so small it doesn't mean much. Also, Doing one set per muscle is MUCH different than doing one set PER EXERCISE for MULTIPLE exercises. In other words, doing one set of bench press for chest is nothing like doing one set of flyes, one set of decline press, and one set of incline presses. Know what I mean? One set needs to be defined within context and most of these studies didn't define it all that well anyway.

I DO NOT think one set per muscle is optimal for most people.


No arguement there. I've read much of the IART literature about 2-3 years ago and am in the process of going through some of it again. You are exactly right about one set of 2 to 4 exercises being the way to go.

I've told a couple of times about doing a position-of-flexiuon (POF) series of exercises for my biceps and triceps at the beginning of the year. This was 3 exercises done back-to-back with about 10-20 seconds in between. I did biceps one workout and triceps the next. After 3 cycles I had put 1/4" on my upper arms. Oh yeah, one last thing... this was during my NTF experiment (none of these sets were done to failure).

Here's where you have to be careful though:

1. I don't think you can go "all-out" ALL of the time with that many sets for your body. You have to do this in cycles. You'll do your regular toe-to-head workout, with 1 exercise per bodypart, but you'll start out with 3 or 4 exercises for chest, let's say. After 3 or 4 cycles, you'll switch to some other muscle.

2. You MUST change after 3 or 4 cycles or risk diminishing returns or even backsliding (this concept is a cornerstone of IART literarture).

3. Based on what Andrew has been saying since I came to this site, you MUST take your muscles out of their comfort zone to get them to grow. HOWEVER, the direction that you take them MUST be in keeping with the nature of the muscle in question. In other word, you won't get far by using a regimen best suited for STF muscles on a muscle that's FTF.

4. I agree that John's ideas will take you outside your comfort zone, but I only see a miniscule percentage being able to thrive on his program. To his credit, he is quick to point out that: only the most adavanced trainees who have stagnated or plateaued on all other forms of stimulation need try his routine. I'll bet you dimes to donuts that of the people who actually qualify under that caveat, only a small percentage of THEM will do well on his regimen!

ICS: I tried your experiment today at lunch. I have to get back to work for now, but will try to post tonight on my results. Here's a teaser: On the work set, I got 75% more reps, but my TUL was about the same!
Omega LP:
Today - 380 x 14 reps, 67 seconds, Pos. Failure
Last Week - 380 x 8 reps, 69 seconds, Not to Failure
Last Week: 24 min Gym Time, Today: 47 min

Talk amongst yourselves...
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ics1974

Scott,

I guess you tried the test with Bioforces 1/2 rep speed instead of what you currently do.
Next time try the same test but using your normal rep speed and see if you progress more.

ICS

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NATUREBOY

ics wrote:
Scott,

I am willing to give Bioforces routine a go as this is something I have not tried yet and it does make sense to me.

The theory of H.I.T also sounds logical at first but in practice it only produces minimal Hypertrophy for me.
I have given Dr. Darden?s routine a go for almost 10 months with no results. I have given Heavy Duty a go with no results. I have also tried your fiber testing and TUL routine ideas with no results.

As far a H.I.T goes it does not work for me, and it does not work for many others. What should I do, continue doing H.I.T until one day when it magically starts to work?

I would like to see one person that started from a beginner level get huge from training H.I.T. And please don't point me to someone that already was huge via volume and then claimed that H.I.T made them this way.

Another thing about one set to failure. All the studies you guys mention say there is no significant difference between one set and three, yet they all do show the three set group did have better gains. Not much but definitely better. Why is this not significant? If there is any improvement whatsoever between one set or three then that is very significant and does prove one is superior to the other.

ICS




ICS,

I am just speculating from the posts I've seen you write in the past, but...it seems to me that you are perhaps one of those individuals that is genetically predisposed to always being 'small', regardless of what you do. Have you considered this possibility? Are your goals realistic? Are you placing too much emphasis on hypertrophy and not appreciating you strength gains? Regardless of what program you do, I hope it works out for you, but if you have not 'sat down and talked to yourself' regarding this, maybe you should.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

ICS,

I just think that 20-30 rep sets waste energy that could be better spent. How about: 15, 10, and 5 reps for the three sets (MAYBE 20,12,8 for legs)? That's at least within the realm of acceptable rep schemes.

After today, I can tell you that waiting 3-5 minutes between sets is for the birds --- I don't care if you guarantee I'll look Mike Mentzer in his prime, I don't have that kind of patience...and I only did it on one exercise!!

-------------------------------------------------
Here's the part where I ALMOST sound like a an HVTer:

You bring up a good point about studies. In this case, "Significant" is a statisical term. I believe that you must have a 95% probability that the multiple-set group is at at least a double-digit percentage better than the single-set group.

What does it mean, "some one left a cake out in the rain"?

Here is the problem that HITers don't tell you: Virtually NONE of the test groups on the studies listed are large enough to get this level of probability, unless ALL multi-set test subjects get >10% gains than the single-set group. In other words, if even one guy in these small groups fails to grow on the multi-set regimen more than his single-set conterparts, there can be no "significant" difference...Admittedly, this is very misleading to say the least.

However, this tells you nothing that no one here hasn't admitted time after time: If you've got the time, then go for it!!! Do all the goddamn sets you want.

I work out at lunch. With 10-15 minutes each way getting over there, I don't have an hour or more to spend at the gym.

ICS: I know you can change you regimen without "flipping out" too much. You can bring some growth in jumps and spurts with some minor short-term adjustments.

I can't TELL you how to workout, but I dont want you to get disillusioned if the DC training burns you out...

If it does work for you, then give me a heads-up so I can Google some good recipes for Crow.

Later,
Scott
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