"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."
This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.
To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.
I have read Darden?s NEW HIT book and I have read Hutchin?s Super Slow. Darden advises 3 to 4 seconds positive and negative on most exercises and Hutchin?s advises 10 seconds positive and negative. Should we really do reps slow or even super slow?
Darden likes to use examples of animals as to why we should lift more slowly. In his book he uses examples of house cats, gorillas, lions, etc? but the main study in the book of why we should lift slower had to do with house cats. The house cats lifting slower and heavier weights produced bigger forearms than the cats who lifted lighter weights but used faster reps.
Personally I don?t think it is good science to compare ourselves to animals for anything especially in Kung Fu with the Monkey style. If you roll around on the ground like a monkey to fight another human you are in for a rude awakening. And to me it is no different than comparing humans to animals when it comes to exercise.
We are made to move quickly when walking, jogging, running, fighting, playing sports, making love, etc? We really don?t move anything like a sloth. For those who don?t know what a sloth is, check the links below. Sloths move very slow almost like a slow motion video as compared to our faster movements. That is why I don?t believe in doing reps slow or super slow and I don?t believe in doing them too fast either. If a sloth wanted to get bigger and stronger should we make it move fast like us or should we make it move slow which a sloth does naturally? I would make a sloth do slow reps to match its natural movements. Making it move faster and performing faster reps might even hurt the animal. And for humans I would make them do faster reps than the sloths.
I used to believe that the amount of weight used dictates rep speed. For lighter weights you perform faster and higher reps and for heavy weights perform slower and lower reps. Sounds good right? This is not so, you can control the speed of the rep whether the weight is light or heavy. I don?t believe in slow, super slow, or super fast reps. Different exercises will have different rep speeds. I do believe in being controlling the reps without using momentum, meaning my positive and negative movements are smooth, and there are no jerky movements. My rep speed is dictated by the feel of the exercise more than anything. For example when doing calf raises my reps will faster than doing lat pulldowns or chin ups. If I moved like a sloth on all my exercises that would be difficult, not to mention would drive me nuts. It takes a great deal of concentration to do reps slow. Why? Because our bodies were not designed to move slow. I do believe in slowing down rep speed but only to the point where reps are still manageable. The only time I will move slowly is when I perform negatives.
Do you really want to move and train like a sloth? Click the links:
Wow!
Well I think the consensus is to move slow enough to where you are doing good form and not throwing weight. I personally don't count my cadence but I go slow enough to not cheat on any movements.
About cadence, going slower is often new to many people because as you know most folks use lots of momentum in the gym. So teaching a cadence is good to help emphasize good form and to keep one from getting hurt.
I have read Darden?s NEW HIT book and I have read Hutchin?s Super Slow. Darden advises 3 to 4 seconds positive and negative on most exercises and Hutchin?s advises 10 seconds positive and negative. Should we really do reps slow or even super slow?
Super slow, I think has been covered in other threads. But to think 3 or 4 seconds is slow, is wrong. I would say controlled, not slow. 8 whole seconds is not a long time in a single rep. 8 x12 is a minute and 36 seconds for a set. Do you think 30 seconds is enough to get anything out of lifting?
tigon wrote:Darden likes to use examples of animals as to why we should lift more slowly. In his book he uses examples of house cats, gorillas, lions, etc? but the main study in the book of why we should lift slower had to do with house cats. The house cats lifting slower and heavier weights produced bigger forearms than the cats who lifted lighter weights but used faster reps.?
Cats, like people are mammals. We have common attributes. Cats are the greatest land predator known to nature. Cats, unlike us,spend about 12 to 14 hours a day sleeping as well. So they get plenty of rest. The do short, intense boughts of exercise, and that keeps them healthy and strong. Race a cat up a tree sometime and tell me how you fare.This is another comparison Dr Darden made that you omitted.
tigon wrote:Personally I don?t think it is good science to compare ourselves to animals for anything especially in Kung Fu with the Monkey style. If you roll around on the ground like a monkey to fight another human you are in for a rude awakening. And to me it is no different than comparing humans to animals when it comes to exercise.
So all that testing we do on mice and rats for medicine is a waste of time too? Damn and here I thought because second hand smoke killed a lab animal it might effect me. Guess I was wrong. Thanks for setting me straight.
Oh and lots of people have had it handed to them by fighting using Kung Fu styles. If you ever read about the history of Kung Fu, you'll find it was developed as an exercise style, and used the examples of animals as a way of comparison. Monkeys never use a ridge hand or leg sweep. Stop comparing Kung Fu to what you saw in Bloodsport... Better yet, walk into a Kung Fu school and ask to face off against someone who is skilled in it. ( No one ever becomes a master of Kung Fu. Its a lifelong journey)
tigon wrote:We are made to move quickly when walking, jogging, running, fighting, playing sports, making love, etc? We really don?t move anything like a sloth. For those who don?t know what a sloth is, check the links below. Sloths move very slow almost like a slow motion video as compared to our faster movements. That is why I don?t believe in doing reps slow or super slow and I don?t believe in doing them too fast either. If a sloth wanted to get bigger and stronger should we make it move fast like us or should we make it move slow which a sloth does naturally? I would make a sloth do slow reps to match its natural movements. Making it move faster and performing faster reps might even hurt the animal. And for humans I would make them do faster reps than the sloths.
What? Are you insane? Your falling into the fast paced world we have made, one that our bodies can't keep up with. Fast food, fast cars, fast relationships, fast divorces. Slow down a bit. All this fast creates fast heart attacks, fast deaths and faster growing guts. Chew your food, and you fill up faster so you won't consume so much. We eat faster than our brain can keep up, so we consume more, and gain weight faster. Fast is not the way we were designed Moderate speed, thats a human. 3to 4 seconds is a moderate pace.Just right.
Btw, sloths are slow as a defensive measure. Try running in the rainforest sometime from wild animals and tell me how long you survive. Now climb up and hang above them. Pound for pound, sloths have greater arm and leg strength than a man, all due to intensity.
tigon wrote:I used to believe that the amount of weight used dictates rep speed. For lighter weights you perform faster and higher reps and for heavy weights perform slower and lower reps. Sounds good right? This is not so, you can control the speed of the rep whether the weight is light or heavy. I don?t believe in slow, super slow, or super fast reps. Different exercises will have different rep speeds. I do believe in being controlling the reps without using momentum, meaning my positive and negative movements are smooth, and there are no jerky movements. My rep speed is dictated by the feel of the exercise more than anything. For example when doing calf raises my reps will faster than doing lat pulldowns or chin ups. If I moved like a sloth on all my exercises that would be difficult, not to mention would drive me nuts. It takes a great deal of concentration to do reps slow. Why? Because our bodies were not designed to move slow. I do believe in slowing down rep speed but only to the point where reps are still manageable. The only time I will move slowly is when I perform negatives.
Do you really want to move and train like a sloth? Click the links:
Thanks for the Mutual of Omaha lesson. So on negatives you can be a sloth, but on positives, you need to have momentum help you out. I think I follow your idea. Write your book on rapid fire positives and sloth like negatives, and I'll compare your proven methods to the others I have cast aside. Thanks.
Personally, I agree that it is never a good idea to move either superficially slow or fast. Rather, I move just slowly enough to eliminate momentum and no slower. Having short limbs, I've come to favor a ~2/3 speed.
NATUREBOY wrote:
Personally, I agree that it is never a good idea to move either superficially slow or fast. Rather, I move just slowly enough to eliminate momentum and no slower. Having short limbs, I've come to favor a ~2/3 speed.
That's it in a nutshell, plus one more point: The movement will often dictate the duration of each repetition. The longer the range-of-motion (ROM), the longer the rep.
A cadence of 2/2 may be fine for wrist curls or calf raises, though way too fast for machine pullovers.
One last thing: you can move slow and still potentially harm yourself on turnarounds (the top and bottom of the rep). A brief pause in the stretched or bottom position is a good guard against a "bounce" that would allow you lift the weight with a cheat and/or injure yourself.
simon-hecubus wrote:
NATUREBOY wrote:
Personally, I agree that it is never a good idea to move either superficially slow or fast. Rather, I move just slowly enough to eliminate momentum and no slower. Having short limbs, I've come to favor a ~2/3 speed.
That's it in a nutshell, plus one more point: The movement will often dictate the duration of each repetition. The longer the range-of-motion (ROM), the longer the rep.
A cadence of 2/2 may be fine for wrist curls or calf raises, though way too fast for machine pullovers.
One last thing: you can move slow and still potentially harm yourself on turnarounds (the top and bottom of the rep). A brief pause in the stretched or bottom position is a good guard against a "bounce" that would allow you lift the weight with a cheat and/or injure yourself.
Scott
Agreed.
Plus if I may add another $0.02 in, I think using an extended negative phase (i.e. 2/3 or 2/4) instead of matching positive and negative phases helps me catch my wind and re-focus mentally for the next rep.
NATUREBOY wrote:
Plus if I may add another $0.02 in, I think using an extended negative phase (i.e. 2/3 or 2/4) instead of matching positive and negative phases helps me catch my wind and re-focus mentally for the next rep.
True dat. Typically, the longer the ROM, the greater the difference between positive and negative portions of the rep.
"Tiger wrote: Super slow, I think has been covered in other threads. But to think 3 or 4 seconds is slow, is wrong. I would say controlled, not slow. 8 whole seconds is not a long time in a single rep. 8 x12 is a minute and 36 seconds for a set. Do you think 30 seconds is enough to get anything out of lifting?"
I bet you don?t even do a 4 second negative or positive. I could believe 2 but not 4 seconds on the negative and positive. Yes 30 seconds of work on the calf raise will do plenty. It depends what exercise you do with how long a rep takes. I do 2 sets for calves a warm up of 15 to 20 reps and a work set of 10-12 reps and that?s it. My rep speed is problem one second up and one second down.
Tiger wrote: Cats, like people are mammals. We have common attributes. Cats are the greatest land predator known to nature. Cats, unlike us,spend about 12 to 14 hours a day sleeping as well. So they get plenty of rest. The do short, intense boughts of exercise, and that keeps them healthy and strong. Race a cat up a tree sometime and tell me how you fare.This is another comparison Dr Darden made that you omitted.
If you want to train like a cat then that means you would be training in a fast and explosive and manner, not training with slow reps.
Tiger wrote: So all that testing we do on mice and rats for medicine is a waste of time too? Damn and here I thought because second hand smoke killed a lab animal it might effect me. Guess I was wrong. Thanks for setting me straight.
Oh and lots of people have had it handed to them by fighting using Kung Fu styles. If you ever read about the history of Kung Fu, you'll find it was developed as an exercise style, and used the examples of animals as a way of comparison. Monkeys never use a ridge hand or leg sweep. Stop comparing Kung Fu to what you saw in Bloodsport... Better yet, walk into a Kung Fu school and ask to face off against someone who is skilled in it. ( No one ever becomes a master of Kung Fu. Its a lifelong journey)
Maybe Kung Fu was a bad example to use. I know martial arts are ?arts.? I have trained in a few styles myself, however, I could care less about the magical aura of martial arts. If someone knows Kung Fu do you think I or anyone else would lay down for them in a fight or make us run? IMO martial arts give people a false sense of security. So what if someone has a black belt or whatever, no one really cares.
Tiger wrote:
What? Are you insane? Your falling into the fast paced world we have made, one that our bodies can't keep up with. Fast food, fast cars, fast relationships, fast divorces. Slow down a bit. All this fast creates fast heart attacks, fast deaths and faster growing guts. Chew your food, and you fill up faster so you won't consume so much. We eat faster than our brain can keep up, so we consume more, and gain weight faster. Fast is not the way we were designed Moderate speed, thats a human. 3to 4 seconds is a moderate pace.Just right.
Btw, sloths are slow as a defensive measure. Try running in the rainforest sometime from wild animals and tell me how long you survive. Now climb up and hang above them. Pound for pound, sloths have greater arm and leg strength than a man, all due to intensity.
So you are an expet on sloths and cats now? I agree we need to slow down but I didn?t mention anything about our fast paced society. I don?t like the way things are either. You better get your anger in check or you will have a heart attack.
Tiger wrote: Thanks for the Mutual of Omaha lesson. So on negatives you can be a sloth, but on positives, you need to have momentum help you out. I think I follow your idea. Write your book on rapid fire positives and sloth like negatives, and I'll compare your proven methods to the others I have cast aside. Thanks.
The amount of weight you use on negatives almost forces you to do them slowly. I have no choice.
Why do you have to be so angry? Message boards are just for people to post their opinions. If you disagree with someone that doesn?t mean you don?t have to trash them. What I write is not the Bible, it is only my opinions. Take it easy?
Look around at the injuries that occur in gyms and see if they ever occur during slow-cadence exercise. Every tear that I have seen occured with ballistic movement and it was on the first rep. Moving slowly reduces momentum and that's a plus - not a bad thing. Also, remember that movement in the gym has little if anything to do with movement outside of a gym.
If you want to get faster - get stronger and practice the exact activity you wish to increase speed in. Lifting in 10 seconds will not slow you down or make your "real-life" movements 10 seconds. I have tried many tempos and am currently experimenting myself. I really like the style I was using - starting very slow and increasing the speed moderately each rep. The problem is like everyone else tried to tell me - it's far too complicated and I honestly found no advantage to it. I think a 3/3 is a good rate of speed to standardize on and I would tell anyone who is in doubt about their speed to move slower. As Ken Hutchins pointed out force = mass x acceleration. Why subject yourself to increased risk with greater forces?
tigon wrote:
I bet you don?t even do a 4 second negative or positive. I could believe 2 but not 4 seconds on the negative and positive. Yes 30 seconds of work on the calf raise will do plenty. It depends what exercise you do with how long a rep takes. I do 2 sets for calves a warm up of 15 to 20 reps and a work set of 10-12 reps and that?s it. My rep speed is problem one second up and one second down
I do a 3/3 strict cadence. Your one second up down equates to 24 seconds tops per set for calves. Every book I have read says your calves are perhaps the most difficult muscle to train. Most advocate multiple sets. But stop and think :one set at 24 seconds won't give you the same intensity I am getting at one set for 72 seconds to faliure. The whole point is not the time its the intensity involved with the time. One second up and down, I am sure momentum is now involved.
tigon wrote:If you want to train like a cat then that means you would be training in a fast and explosive and manner, not training with slow reps.
Cats play fast. They hunt fast. They stretch slow and intense. Thats the way they exercise. So if I was training like a cat, I would train briefly and intensly. Now, If a cat wanted to be muscular, (Which they don't) They would stretch slower. Has something to do with more fast twitch, less slow twitch muscle as I recall.
tigon wrote:Maybe Kung Fu was a bad example to use. I know martial arts are ?arts.? I have trained in a few styles myself, however, I could care less about the magical aura of martial arts. If someone knows Kung Fu do you think I or anyone else would lay down for them in a fight or make us run? IMO martial arts give people a false sense of security. So what if someone has a black belt or whatever, no one really cares.
Semantics aside, there are no black belts in kung fu. Thats Karate, but I digress. A good martial artist never says, hey Im warning you I know kung fu, anymore than someone yells, back off I have a knife. People who do that are A) Stupid, or B) have no knowledge of fighting. There is no magical or mystical aura. Thats Hollywood.
As for false sense of security, yes your right, but some knowledge is better than no knowledge, wouldn't you agree. Not to get off topic, but the issue with most modern martial arts is they don't train you to fight, they train you to play tag.
tigon wrote:So you are an expet on sloths and cats now? I agree we need to slow down but I didn?t mention anything about our fast paced society. I don?t like the way things are either. You better get your anger in check or you will have a heart attack.
There was no anger in my post. so don't worry, I check my BP often and its fine. Your the one who is talking sloths and cats. Thats what your thread is about, as I recall. Dr Darden used these animals as examples, as they are strong and powerful. You brought up sloths as a response to his cats and apes. Fast reps are not controlled reps. I was using our fast paced lifestyles as a retort to your fast rep statement.
tigon wrote:The amount of weight you use on negatives almost forces you to do them slowly. I have no choice.
But if your throwing the weight up on the positive, then are you getting everything you can out of it?
tigon wrote:Why do you have to be so angry? Message boards are just for people to post their opinions. If you disagree with someone that doesn?t mean you don?t have to trash them. What I write is not the Bible, it is only my opinions. Take it easy?
Tigon
There is no anger here, trust me.
You were trashing Dr Darden, were you not, if not so openly, the by underhanded methods. Message boards are for opinions, and as you expressed yours, you were basically saying his knowledge and expierence are pointless because you showed us a sloth.
If you can show me some proof your method works, not just ripping on his animal analogies, then by all means, I am willling to listen. But saying our training is slothlike is just a bad comparison.
I am not martial arts illiterate. I know kung fu practitioners wear sashes. I was just making a point everyone would understand. Anyways, lets not talk about martial arts. Cats get their exercise from running, leaping, hunting, mating, and none of that they do slowly. Stretching is just stretching, it doesn?t build muscle or strength, it provides flexibility and healing.
I respect any opinion you have. I also respect Darden and Arthur Jones, I think they are brilliant men. My intentions wasn?t to rip Darden but rather view reps in a different way. He compared reps to cats and I compared reps to sloths. Cats get their exercise from mainly fast movements and sloths get their exercise from slow movements.
So why would you make a cat do slow reps and sloth do fast reps? Cats are like sprinters, short bursts of energy and power. Sprinters look pretty good to me as compared to someone who just walks. I am not for reps that are too slow and I am not for reps that are too fast, and all rep speeds depend a lot on the exercise you are doing.
I use a lot of HIT techniques such as training the whole body in my training but doing slower reps is something I don?t do. I pay no attention to my cadence, I just use a speed that feels the best. I just know I don?t do a 3 or 4 second positive or negative.
As proof, I will post a pic of my calves along with their measurements and my calf routine which is short and sweet. Just give me some time to get them posted.
Thanks? Tigon
PS: How do you change the color of the font text when posting?
Again, I'm not looking to fight. But cats running, hunting, mating etc. are their normal activities. Cats spend over 12 hours a day sleeping. Stretching is how they exercise, believe it or not. Everything else is just how they live.
Dr Dardens examples are just that: examples. As I said, cats don't look to build their own bodies. They do the bare miniumum to exert themselves. When they do act its intensive and explosive sure, but again, they don't work a job, or deal with bills etc. Most of the time they rest. If they did understand how to work out, I am sure they would, as Dr Dardens example showed.
As for the font, when you quote a person, you need to cut and paste the begining ["quote"] and place the end [/"quote"] at the end of their statement. Then after you add your comments, post the ["quote"] [/"quote"]around the next portion you want to quote. Just leave out the "" from your quote action.
I think it's a little funny how some people argue from completely theoretical viewpoints and expect reality to conform to their reasoning and analogies. I think slow is better because...I think fast is better because...
It reminds me of the those who say they read so and so's book and now they're confused about how to train. Where's the confusion?
Why not just try both methods, measure your results, and then know for sure?
It would take a lot less time than arguing the point with someone else on a discussion forum--who also doesn't know, incidentally--and would have the added benefit that in the end, you could be confident of your answer.
David_27 wrote:
I think it's a little funny how some people argue from completely theoretical viewpoints and expect reality to conform to their reasoning and analogies. I think slow is better because...I think fast is better because...
It reminds me of the those who say they read so and so's book and now they're confused about how to train. Where's the confusion?
Why not just try both methods, measure your results, and then know for sure?
It would take a lot less time than arguing the point with someone else on a discussion forum--who also doesn't know, incidentally--and would have the added benefit that in the end, you could be confident of your answer.
I always find it funny when someone jumps into a discussion, acts like the voice of reason, offers no insight whatever, and then rides the fence on the subject.
Boards like this are for discussion. To say neither of us knows what we are talking about, without really knowing us, is just as big a fallacy.
I have lifted as fast as one second up and one second down for years. It didn't workfor me. I have tried the moderate controlled tempo, and I am getting results. So I do have confidence in my opinon.
He has an viewpoint, I have mine. We were bringing opposing views to light. I think an open discussion is far shorter a period of time for someone who wants to learn as opposed to trying something for 6 months and finding out it won't work. You can either learn from someones mistakes, or repeat them. The choice is yours.
tylerg wrote:
I find when I am training with my cat, the faster I swing it by the tail, the farther it sails when I let go.
I think the cat has CNS Burnout, 'cause she just doesn't seem to want to train much anymore.
Oh well, time for Chinese food
Maybe you should look into using dogs or small horses and see if your range increases. If so, you may be ready to move into a gym and start a real workout. I am sure the SPCA would prefer that. Or at least find some friends who will want try your training methods, and see if they get similar results. It sounds like your onto something. Or on something.
Perhaps its a little of both column a and a little of column b.
tylerg wrote:
I find when I am training with my cat, the faster I swing it by the tail, the farther it sails when I let go.
I think the cat has CNS Burnout, 'cause she just doesn't seem to want to train much anymore.
Oh well, time for Chinese food
Thanks Tyler. I figured I should stop by here before heading to the airport, and a little bit of humor is just what I needed to break up an otherwise stressful morning :)
TigerFighter VS wrote:
I think an open discussion is far shorter a period of time for someone who wants to learn as opposed to trying something for 6 months and finding out it won't work.
--It would be, if anyone actually learned something from it. But you see, the result of your forum discussion is *inconclusive*. You still believe as you did at the start, as does your opponent, and it's all a finger exercise. Experimentation, even if it took months, would leave you *sure*. IMO, that would be a superior result.
OK here are my calves and my calf routine. I am 34 years old, height is 5?8? and weight is 200 lbs. My calves are 17 inches flexed and 16 1/2 inches relaxed. Personally I don?t care much for measurements but I just threw mine out there for the measuring crowd. I don?t care how big I get, my main goal is to have good health. I just want to feel and look good.
I perform a whole body workout every 4th day. I only do one exercise per workout for calves. I use standing calf raises, seated calf raises, and leg press calf raises. I don?t alternate exercises I just use the least busiest machine in the gym that day, however I do prefer seated and leg press calf raises to take the pressure off of my spine. For poundages I just go as heavy as I can with safety in mind and the poundages are different for each machine of course.
I do one warm up set of 15-20 reps, then rest until I am ready to go for the working set. For the work set I do 10-12 reps. I believe my thighs and calves respond better to higher reps so that is why I do 10-12 reps on the working set. I don?t time or pay much attention to my cadence but I guess it would be one sec on the positive and one second on the negative.
So it looks like this:
Sets reps
1* 15-20
1 10-12
* is a warm up set
This looks easy but it is not if you give an honest good effort.
We have 4 untrained men all same height, age, weight, etc. They will all perform ten 200 meter intervals on a track with 30 seconds rest between bouts for one month. One man will walk very slowly, the second man will speed walk, the third man will jog, and the fourth man will sprint.
Now who do you think will be in better shape and have the better body by the end of the month? You know it would be the fourth man, the sprinter. All men are moving the same amount of weight but the fourth man is moving his weight the fastest.
I am not saying to do super fast reps. All I am saying is do we really have to do slow or extra slow reps to get results?
Drew Baye wrote:
TigerFighter VS wrote:
Do you think 30 seconds is enough to get anything out of lifting?
Absolutely.
Ok, let me rephrase. Do you think a single set, completed in 30 seconds would be optimal for muscle growth? Or would you advocate a more moderate tempo for lifting?
We have 4 untrained men all same height, age, weight, etc. They will all perform ten 200 meter intervals on a track with 30 seconds rest between bouts for one month. One man will walk very slowly, the second man will speed walk, the third man will jog, and the fourth man will sprint.
Now who do you think will be in better shape and have the better body by the end of the month? You know it would be the fourth man, the sprinter. All men are moving the same amount of weight but the fourth man is moving his weight the fastest.
I am not saying to do super fast reps. All I am saying is do we really have to do slow or extra slow reps to get results?
Tigon
But we aren't talking aerobic exercise. We are talking anerobic exercise for muscle gains.
So in your example, yes your sprinter will have a leaner body. But we are looking to add muscle not conditioning ourselves for speed. That usually encompasses smaller muscles.
