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Cardio & Fat Loss w/ HIT?
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elecjet

New York, USA

james pate wrote:
Cherry wrote:
I don't really understand this discussion. Aside from health and longevity benefits, I see nothing magical about cardio, it just burns additional calories. Of course, don't eat those surplus calories in first place and you won't have to burn them off with activity.

However, max says cardio can help you spare muscle loss while dieting. I didn't know this, and I'm not sure how it would work.



Hi folks
I have to agree. Running/cardio is not as effective as I wish it was. I dont have any studies to quote. All I have is my own personal experience.

I spent most of my life as a runner. Running was a major activate from the age of 11 to 39. To be honest I loved to run cross country. I was always lean. As I got into my mid 20s, I found it to be a great stress relief. It would help me unwind from the work day.

I never considered a gym until after I damaged my left knee in a work accident in 1997. I went to the gym out of desperation. I was no longer lean. I weighed in at 215lbs plus.

Over the next 3 to 4 years I worked out 3 to 5 times a week; starting with a 3 mile run in 30 mins, followed by lifting weights at random until I was totally spent. This did lean me out again, but for all my work I never gained any muscle mass.

My weight stayed constant at 192-195lbs until I was laid up once again for a year in 2002. I was 36yrs old and my weight went as high as 220lbs while I was idle. Once I got back into my regular routine of a 3 mile warm up plus weights, I did lose some weight but I never regained original weight of 192-195lbs. I had evened out at the 200lbs mark, with little definition to my arms and chest and a midsection of fat that would not move.

Having pickup the New HIT in December this past year was when things started to change. After 6 months on the beginning routines while recovering from a minor back injury, I have started the leaning process as Ellington describes. My arms are building even as I and leaning out. I know that I am building muscle mass. I believe that the calorie reduced diet would also work with my old routine but there would be little or no muscle growth.

It is good to have the knowledge and experience in the book available here in the forums as well where people are putting HIT to work. In closing, I do remember asking a personal trainer about a HIT program being promoted at the gym in 1999. He told my to forget it as it was only for really bodybuilders and not the likes of me. ;)

Regards
James


Nice story. So are you still running this to this day or no more?

IN my personal experience i just think running sucks ass. Where am i running to? I am running nowhere and this never made sense to me. Big deal if i go to the store i'll walk there.

I don't know it's just me but "cardio " work it just friggen boring as hell and i would rather do most things but that. But that's just me, i would rather have more time in the day. But if i do sit around alot in a day i do find myself going for a fast walk or riding a stationary bike even though it's boring me inside lol.
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james pate

Ontario, CAN

elecjet wrote:


Nice story. So are you still running this to this day or no more?...........

......... But if i do sit around alot in a day i do find myself going for a fast walk or riding a stationary bike even though it's boring me inside lol.


Hi elecjet

I am not running anymore. It was hard to give up, even after first reading the New HIT. I tried running with HIT but I just don?t have enough to go round. I had to make a decision and take one over the other.

Regards
James
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Max

Oklahoma, USA

Drew Baye wrote:
http://baye.com/...baye-june95.jpg

Contest shape. No cardio, just HIT



No disrespect intended towards Drew, you have to respect the dedication and effort to get into that condition but it kind of shows what I was saying. He looks way too skinny for a bodybuilding contest. You look much better in your avatar.
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Max

Oklahoma, USA

Cherry wrote:
I don't really understand this discussion. Aside from health and longevity benefits, I see nothing magical about cardio, it just burns additional calories. Of course, don't eat those surplus calories in first place and you won't have to burn them off with activity.

However, max says cardio can help you spare muscle loss while dieting. I didn't know this, and I'm not sure how it would work.





While I don't have any "studies" showing this to be the case, I have seen many people prepare for bodybuilding competitions over the past 14 years and no one has been able to hold on to muscle mass without doing some cardio. I just think it has to do with being able to eat more while still losing fat.

I don't really have an answer as to why and I'm not here to argue with anyone about it, I just know what works from real world experience but for some reason that's not good enough for some people.

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Drew Baye

Florida, USA

saseme wrote:
Drew,

Do you think it is at all possible to maintain that kind of shape(family and business permitting) year round, or is it only possible periodically because it's too physically taxing or such?


It is possible to stay relatively lean year round, but not in contest condition. People just need to watch what they eat.
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Drew Baye

Florida, USA

Cherry wrote:
I don't really understand this discussion. Aside from health and longevity benefits, I see nothing magical about cardio, it just burns additional calories. Of course, don't eat those surplus calories in first place and you won't have to burn them off with activity.

However, max says cardio can help you spare muscle loss while dieting. I didn't know this, and I'm not sure how it would work.



Aerobics wouldn't spare muscle loss. It would contribute to it.

The small additional amount of calories burned by the extra activity could more easily just not be eaten. Either way, the calories don't get there. The difference is, achieving the same negative net calorie balance by controlling dietary intake doesn't expose the body to the same stress that doing so with additional activity does. Also, people greatly overestimate the number of calories burned by activities.

It isn't just some people that can do it either. I've trained a wide variety of people, and none of them have failed to lose bodyfat with a combination of HIT and a moderately reduced calorie diet, without having to do any aerobics. As long as they are consistent with their diet, the fat will come off.
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Drew Baye

Florida, USA

Max wrote:
Drew Baye wrote:
http://baye.com/...baye-june95.jpg

Contest shape. No cardio, just HIT


No disrespect intended towards Drew, you have to respect the dedication and effort to get into that condition but it kind of shows what I was saying. He looks way too skinny for a bodybuilding contest. You look much better in your avatar.


Perhaps that's because it was a natural contest and I don't use steroids. The standards set by the bodybuilding magazines and drug-users are unrealistic.

I like the way I look better when I'm not quite as ripped and holding more muscle, but I had to get as lean as possible for the contest.

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Max

Oklahoma, USA

Drew Baye wrote:
Max wrote:
Drew Baye wrote:
http://baye.com/...baye-june95.jpg

Contest shape. No cardio, just HIT


No disrespect intended towards Drew, you have to respect the dedication and effort to get into that condition but it kind of shows what I was saying. He looks way too skinny for a bodybuilding contest. You look much better in your avatar.


Perhaps that's because it was a natural contest and I don't use steroids. The standards set by the bodybuilding magazines and drug-users are unrealistic.

I like the way I look better when I'm not quite as ripped and holding more muscle, but I had to get as lean as possible for the contest.




I don't want take anything away from your efforts because your conditioning was incredible however you just looked way too thin, even for a natural show. I think I've read that you are around 5'-8" or so and I know people who compete naturally at 180-190lbs. at that height.

If you're that height, I'd guess from the picture your 150 to 160 tops. I myself have competed at 211 at 5'-11" and I've never touched a drug in my life. But like I said I give you a lot of credit for getting so ripped, I know genetics also play a big role.

I do agree that the magazines set unrealistic standards but then when people finally realize this they get discouraged and set their standards too low because they're natural.
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FamilyMan

Missouri, USA

BFBullpup wrote:
I've seen your posts at T-Nation, FamilyMan. I was wondering when you'd visit the HIT boards. Welcome. :-)

HIT training is my cardio.

I believe you train at home, right? Good, that will make it easier for you to change exercises.

I know it's hard to believe that weight training alone can be cardio. I decided to try this more than a year ago and now I'm convinced. If I were to do cardio again, it would be solely to condition myself for a sport .

Thought I'd chime in as somebody who is happy with here he is without cardio.



Thanks for the welcome. It is good to get some straight answers from people who have confidence in HIT.

What you are suggesting confirms what I am asking. In the past, I have always tried cardio to loose fat... with limited results. Why bore myself & keep doing something that doesn't work? I DO work out at home, so I am limited on my access to cardio equipment. If I had a sport to train for OR get outdoors for a hike, that would be different. That is living instead of running on a hamster wheel.

I am game to try HIT alone for fat loss. Thanks for all the input.
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Cherry

FamilyMan wrote:
BFBullpup wrote:
I've seen your posts at T-Nation, FamilyMan. I was wondering when you'd visit the HIT boards. Welcome. :-)

HIT training is my cardio.

I believe you train at home, right? Good, that will make it easier for you to change exercises.

I know it's hard to believe that weight training alone can be cardio. I decided to try this more than a year ago and now I'm convinced. If I were to do cardio again, it would be solely to condition myself for a sport .

Thought I'd chime in as somebody who is happy with here he is without cardio.


Thanks for the welcome. It is good to get some straight answers from people who have confidence in HIT.

What you are suggesting confirms what I am asking. In the past, I have always tried cardio to loose fat... with limited results. Why bore myself & keep doing something that doesn't work? I DO work out at home, so I am limited on my access to cardio equipment. If I had a sport to train for OR get outdoors for a hike, that would be different. That is living instead of running on a hamster wheel.

I am game to try HIT alone for fat loss. Thanks for all the input.



If your sole purpose for exercise of any kind for fat loss only then the most time efficient way is to not eat it on in the first place.

Whether you do HIT or cardio (or ?) it still takes much more time to burn it off than to eat that twinkie or dish of icecream or whatever.

Just don't eat more than you need and you'll save tons of time because you won't have to do ANYTHING for fat loss.

Of course, most of us exercise for reasons other than fat loss. My primary purpose if health & longevity.
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elecjet

New York, USA

Cherry wrote:
FamilyMan wrote:
BFBullpup wrote:
I've seen your posts at T-Nation, FamilyMan. I was wondering when you'd visit the HIT boards. Welcome. :-)

HIT training is my cardio.

I believe you train at home, right? Good, that will make it easier for you to change exercises.

I know it's hard to believe that weight training alone can be cardio. I decided to try this more than a year ago and now I'm convinced. If I were to do cardio again, it would be solely to condition myself for a sport .

Thought I'd chime in as somebody who is happy with here he is without cardio.


Thanks for the welcome. It is good to get some straight answers from people who have confidence in HIT.

What you are suggesting confirms what I am asking. In the past, I have always tried cardio to loose fat... with limited results. Why bore myself & keep doing something that doesn't work? I DO work out at home, so I am limited on my access to cardio equipment. If I had a sport to train for OR get outdoors for a hike, that would be different. That is living instead of running on a hamster wheel.

I am game to try HIT alone for fat loss. Thanks for all the input.



If your sole purpose for exercise of any kind for fat loss only then the most time efficient way is to not eat it on in the first place.

Whether you do HIT or cardio (or ?) it still takes much more time to burn it off than to eat that twinkie or dish of icecream or whatever.

Just don't eat more than you need and you'll save tons of time because you won't have to do ANYTHING for fat loss.

Of course, most of us exercise for reasons other than fat loss. My primary purpose if health & longevity.



I agree with the do not eat it and then you do not have to burn it off that cherry has said.

Of course it's hard to have a strict diet but man to not do USELESS cardio is great in the long run.

I'm still doing my one meal a day thing and this is alot easier to track those calories then eating smaller meals a day. Not saying it's the best but so far that and H.I.T are working hand and hand strangely enough.

Oh yeah no cardio.
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FamilyMan

Missouri, USA

Drew Baye wrote:
http://baye.com/...baye-june95.jpg

Contest shape. No cardio, just HIT


Drew, you are totally ripped! Good job!

I will NEVER be able to get that lean. Then, that is not my goal either. I wonder how genetics works into using HIT for fat loss. I'm willing to try.
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FamilyMan

Missouri, USA

Cherry wrote:
Landau wrote:
Health and Longevity from "cardio" is a pipe dream, pure conjecture. Wishfull thinking at best, and you say this as a matter of fact, which it is not.

Cherry wrote:
Right off the top of my head... I've seen about half dozen studies demonstrating a reduced risk of mortality with cardio fitness. Cardio can also reduce pulse pressures and improve artery stiffness, ...I'd say those are health benefits, wouldn't you?


Part 2 - Is Cardio exercise necessary for cardiovascular fitness?

I admit that this thought may be baggage from the 80's or something. I have the impression in my mind that the National Heart Association etc. (someone, I don't know who) prescribes X amount of cardio exercise to strenghten the heart for longevity. I also have an impression (perhaps false or irrelevant w/ HIT) that BodyBuilding w/out cardio lead to a higher risk of heart attack. Do we NEED cardio exercise to maintain heart fitness?

I HAVE felt the physical demand of a 20-30 minute HIT routine. Often, I will collapse onto the couch for 15 minutes post workout until my heart calms. I FEEL that. But, what is most healthy for our hearts?
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elecjet

New York, USA

FamilyMan wrote:
Cherry wrote:
Landau wrote:
Health and Longevity from "cardio" is a pipe dream, pure conjecture. Wishfull thinking at best, and you say this as a matter of fact, which it is not.

Cherry wrote:
Right off the top of my head... I've seen about half dozen studies demonstrating a reduced risk of mortality with cardio fitness. Cardio can also reduce pulse pressures and improve artery stiffness, ...I'd say those are health benefits, wouldn't you?


Part 2 - Is Cardio exercise necessary for cardiovascular fitness?

I admit that this thought may be baggage from the 80's or something. I have the impression in my mind that the National Heart Association etc. (someone, I don't know who) prescribes X amount of cardio exercise to strenghten the heart for longevity. I also have an impression (perhaps false or irrelevant w/ HIT) that BodyBuilding w/out cardio lead to a higher risk of heart attack. Do we NEED cardio exercise to maintain heart fitness?

I HAVE felt the physical demand of a 20-30 minute HIT routine. Often, I will collapse onto the couch for 15 minutes post workout until my heart calms. I FEEL that. But, what is most healthy for our hearts?


I really do not know what's more healthy for the heart. But like you said your heart is pounding after a good h.i.t workout so obviously this is working the heart big time. More productively in my opinion.

I would suggest maybe do a run or a bike ride. maybe go until tired on each, then give h.i.t a honest try and then go back and test your skills again. If they improve then you know the answer.

I always wondered myself how can just lifting improve skills in other things. But i think the fact that you lose the fat helps tremendously. So maybe it's the fat lost the really gives you more energy and power to run without the flab bouncing all over.
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NATUREBOY

FamilyMan wrote:

Part 2 - Is Cardio exercise necessary for cardiovascular fitness?

I admit that this thought may be baggage from the 80's or something. I have the impression in my mind that the National Heart Association etc. (someone, I don't know who) prescribes X amount of cardio exercise to strenghten the heart for longevity. I also have an impression (perhaps false or irrelevant w/ HIT) that BodyBuilding w/out cardio lead to a higher risk of heart attack. Do we NEED cardio exercise to maintain heart fitness?

I HAVE felt the physical demand of a 20-30 minute HIT routine. Often, I will collapse onto the couch for 15 minutes post workout until my heart calms. I FEEL that. But, what is most healthy for our hearts?


HIT is great exercise for your heart and lungs.

Remember, you heart and lungs have no idea *how* you're working them. Whether you're running, doing HIT, or making love...it's all the same.

The only point at which cardio might be necessary is once you've cut your workout down to 3-4 sets once a week...which will take well over a year.

As a beginner, you should start off at 12 sets, 3x's week, which is PLENTY.
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BF Bullpup

Massachusetts, USA

FamilyMan wrote:
Part 2 - Is Cardio exercise necessary for cardiovascular fitness?


To answer that, in my opinion, no. Regular HIT is enough. I remember huffing and puffing going up the stairs when I started but I don't have that problem anymore, so I guess my cardio has improved since then. But I don't know HOW MUCH.

If I may hijack a little bit, I'd like to add a Part 3 - which is better for the heart and lungs: HIT or regular cardio? If there is a qualitative difference? I did say above that I would do cardio only for sports (like for example rugby, nonstop moving back and forth for two 40-minute halves), but would that be even be necessary and/or more beneficial?
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deanjones

FamilyMan wrote:
This is my first post here. My wife and I started HIT via the Big Arms Challenge on T-Nation. We were impressed by the results of the challenge, and have decided to experiment with HIT throughout the Summer. I have read most of "The NEW HIT", but have some questions you more experienced folk may be able to answer.

* I am interested in more info on how HIT relates to fat loss & cardiovascular health. Would you include low impact bike, running, etc. along with non-specialized HIT training?
i.e., Is HIT optimal for fat loss? Does HIT provide the cardiovascular exercise necessary for a healthy heart?


... and this is probably why Darden does what he does. Another informed believer that experienced results. :)

I despise cardio as well, FamilyMan. Doing HIT for the past 6 months has been all the cardio I have needed. Doing it right will make you want to puke your heart is racing so much and you're out of breath by the end of the routine easily... I have personally felt a HUGE increase in my cardio endurance from just doing HIT.

Before HIT, when I was doing longer split routines, I was doing cardio on my days off and running about 30 - 45 minutes at a time at a range of about 6 - 8 MPH. My cardio endurance was great at that time and I can honestly say that I feel to be at that level right now.

I'm not sure if this is the case for others or not, but it has been for me.

Enjoy HIT and welcome to the forums.

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spud

FamilyMan wrote:
Drew, you are totally ripped! Good job!

I will NEVER be able to get that lean. Then, that is not my goal either.


In that case, don't bother doing cardio. If your goal is not to get as lean as Drew then just stick with HIT, diet and of course superhydration.

FamilyMan wrote:
I also have an impression (perhaps false or irrelevant w/ HIT) that BodyBuilding w/out cardio lead to a higher risk of heart attack.


I doubt that lifting weights in an high intensity manner will increase the risk of a heart attack. It probably reduces it.

The parts of "bodybuilding" that will increase the risk if a heart attack are eating excessive amounts of bad food and taking lots of drugs and hormones. I doubt you will be doing either of these.

When people talk about "fitness", the first thing you have to think about is "fit for what?"

HIT won't make you fit for something like a triathlon as you need the specific adaptations that come from practicing swimming, cycling and running. HIT will make you more than fit enough for the activities that you will encounter in everyday life.

Improved cardiovascular performance (usually increased endurance in some form of activity) does not necessarily mean you have a healthier heart.

What is the definition of a healthy heart?

How do you make it healthier?
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deanjones

FamilyMan wrote:
I also have an impression (perhaps false or irrelevant w/ HIT) that BodyBuilding w/out cardio lead to a higher risk of heart attack.


That's hilarious.... I just read that. Where do people come up with this stuff?

In all honestly, I used to have high cholesterol. Not extremely high, but right around the danger zone at 190. I had a check-up 2 months ago and guess what? It was down to 150. The doc recommended that I try to up the HDL a tiny bit, but he stated, and I quote "Your cholesterol levels are excellent."

Also, I have had heart palpitations for a few years. They appeared out of no where. Even when I did a lot of running (the 30 - 45 minutes about 3 - 4 times a week), they didn't clear up. However, I have not had them since I started HIT. Is this because of HIT? I don't know... However, it's a huge coincidence for me.

Overall, my cardio endurance is up and I have never felt healthier. I've been VERY pleased with HIT and will never go back to doing split routines again.
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FamilyMan

Missouri, USA

Thanks to all for your responses. I just got back into town and read through the posts. There is a lot of food for thought, and some good points that I needed to hear.

natureboy wrote: Remember, you heart and lungs have no idea *how* you're working them.

This makes sense to me. There is nothing magical about running on a hamster wheel. HIT will do just as well for heart & lungs.

Concerning cardiovascular risks of Bodybuilding,
Spud wrote: The parts of "bodybuilding" that will increase the risk if a heart attack are eating excessive amounts of bad food and taking lots of drugs and hormones. I doubt you will be doing either of these.

It is clear to me now that those pointing a finger at "unhealthy" Bodybuilders had an agenda. They wanted to sell running. No level of running would have undone the damage of poor diet & drug use! Clean living w/ HIT can be a healthy lifestyle... even without cardio running.

I also really appreciate all the personal experiences shared. This is not just textbook research. It is what is working for YOU!



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FamilyMan

Missouri, USA

I want you guys to know you have really helped me to think through this cardio issue.

I have been a slave to "cardio" out of fear of gaining fat or dropping dead with a weak heart. Because of these silly ideas I picked up somewhere, I have always felt like I NEEDED to run. For the first time in my adult life, I feel fredom from the chains of the exercise bike and running.

Thanks for helping to clear my thoughts,
Dan the FamilyMan
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HamsFitness

FamilyMan wrote:
I want you guys to know you have really helped me to think through this cardio issue.

I have been a slave to "cardio" out of fear of gaining fat or dropping dead with a weak heart. Because of these silly ideas I picked up somewhere, I have always felt like I NEEDED to run. For the first time in my adult life, I feel fredom from the chains of the exercise bike and running.

Thanks for helping to clear my thoughts,
Dan the FamilyMan


Hey Dan,

I followed the thread on T-nation on the arms challenge - if I remember your post and pics you did a good job and have good size frame to work from - give a HIT a good honest try and never be afraid to ask here for help if things are quite tuned in right.

Enoy and good luck!
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Cherry

Moving quickly through a HIT workout will provide some cardio conditioning. The problem as i see it is that many want to "catch their breath" before moving on to next set. Obviously that will limit any cardio. You're going to have to set all the sets up before you start, can you do that?

Another thing is how will you challenge your cardio system to improve further? You know what i mean, once you got your HIT routine down how will you make the cardio more demanding?

When I did a Nautilus Circuit we set 12-15 sets ups before we started. Then, each successive workout, we attempted to finish the workout sooner than the one before. In this way we challenged and subsequently improved our cardio.
Curious, how will you do it??
As you know your muscles need challenged to grow bigger, your cardio won't improve without it either.

:|
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spud

Cherry, how much has your "cardio" improved in the last 6 months?
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Cherry

spud wrote:
Cherry, how much has your "cardio" improved in the last 6 months?


how much have you?

;)))
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