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New - Wider Shoulders Routine
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RobT

NEW - Wider Shoulders Routine - another great 2 weeks specialization challenge from Dr Darden on T-Nation.

In the same style at the Olde School Calf and Bigger arms challanges.

http://www.t-nation.com/...162532&pageNo=0

I'm in - anyone else here joining in?

Rob T
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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

It's a darn good specialization routine Rob. I was lucky enough to briefly consult on it with the good Doctor (you will see my name mentioned in a snippit). I thought the inclusion of the barbell finisher (especially in thirds) was very smart indeed. Sometimes the best things are merely a brilliant tweak of the obvious.

I encourage folks to give it a solid run. I personally had trouble with delts and needed this type of specialization not just to make them great but to build proper symmetry. Don't be under prepared though, the continuous sets 'triple threat' dumbbell work is a killer!

Regards,
Andrew
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james pate

Ontario, CAN

I plan to give the shoulder challenge a try.
Regards
James
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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

Right on James, get some good measurements (before and after) and let us know how it goes.

Regards,
Andrew
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Ellington Darden

I'm glad to see a few guys here doing the two-week wider-shoulder cycle over on T-Nation. The plan doesn't start until July 24th . . . so there's still time to sign up.

I'd sure like to get more HIT guys involved.

Ellington
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saseme

What's the reason for placing the rear lateral first, as quite often you see placed last in a shoulder routine?

I guess it makes more sense to run into the shoulder press immediately following the lateral raise or front raise than it does the rear.

I wonder about having the rear lateral in a shoulder routine at all, as I think it's like the pullover, as the pullover can be used in teh beginning of a back workout, or also at the end of chest workout, so to the real lateral can be used in both the shoulder and back workouts.
I'll have to go back and see if the rear lateral features in Dr. D's lat routine posted earlier.

Why not post the routine here, on your site?
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

saseme wrote:
What's the reason forplacing the rear lateral first, as quite often you see placed last in a shoulder routine?

I guess it makes more sense to run into the shoulder press immediately following the lateral raise or front raise than it does the rear.


It's supposed to be in order of strength, starting with the weakest movement first --- especially since the intention is to use the same set of DBs in all three movements. You'll be starting with a weight that may be OK for your rear delt head, but too light for laterals. By the time you pre-fatigue the delts (since there is lots of crossover between the 3 heads) with the RRs, the DB won't be as light for the FRs and LRs.

With that in mind, for myself I would switch the order of FRs and LRs. I'd do front raises before laterals since I am weaker in that movement. My order, from weakest to strongest, would be RRs/FRs/LRs.

Scott
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Ellington Darden

Scott is correct. On the three dumbbell raises, I suggest doing the weakest one first and the strongest one last. That order, from bent arm to lateral to front, works very well for me and the various trainees who I've worked with. I've never tried it Scott's way, but I will over the next several weeks.

Ellington
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marcrph

Portugal

Dr. Darden

I'm glad you're putting emphasis on shoulders. You are correct, in that visually nothing competes with wide shoulder development. In my opinion, the greatest bodybuilder of all time, Steve Reeves, would like this workout. He worked his shoulders 1st in his routines. He also de-emphasised trap development. I believe this routine would satisfy Mr. Reeves criteria for a robust shoulder workout.

My personal preference was your Super High Intensity shoulder workout, which involved upright rows, side laterals, and barbell presses. I have used this routine for a long time. This routine, utilizing double pre-exhaustion, which fatiqued the shoulders further by incorporating the biceps and the triceps. For this reason, I prefer this routine.

Yes, the old-school trainees worked the shoulders hard. No droopy pecs on narrow shoulders would suffice. A common goal in the old-days was to press 1 & 1/2 times your bodyweight overhead.

I further hope your experiment on T-Nation is wildy successful.

Marc
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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

In my experience (and I have tried) using the front raise first (before lateral) leaves you too sacked for a good quality side raise. The rear and front delts already get lots of quality work pressing and pulling it is the lateral head that needs the most direct stimulation. This order nails the lateral head mid stream then hits the shoulder again with big stablized weight.

You guys are thinking of order in the sense of exercise to exercise (as if performed separately). The point of this routine is to fully fatigue the shoulders from all angles 'before' hitting them with the assist of other muscles in the overhead press. The front raise isn't necessarily that much weaker than the side raise but it does not have the traps to help. If you have problems getting good reps to the front change where you palms are facing and bend your arms more.

Going to the side raise last leaves you either cheating too much to get at that important lateral head or having to use too light a load to properly fatigue the rear dealt.

When people have been through this attack (and if reminded) I can provide my 'next step' routine that I have used (an advanced hybrid of this routine). It is a fine tuning of things and some added blasting.

Regards,
Andrew
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

AShortt wrote:
In my experience (and I have tried) using the front raise first (before lateral) leaves you too sacked for a good quality side raise. The rear and front delts already get lots of quality work pressing and pulling it is the lateral head that needs the most direct stimulation. This order nails the lateral head mid stream then hits the shoulder again with big stablized weight.


You have a point regarding pressing and pulling movements working the front and rear laterals, but the lateral head comes into play there too. In addition, the lateral raise is probably the most frequently performed version of DB raises and therefore many folks will have strong side heads.

Let me carefully qualify that the order recommended was only for myself --- by the same token, Andrew, you are speaking for yourself and your strengths and weaknesses. I encourage everyone to find out which works best for them. Hopefully if you've been doing this for a while, you already know!

I'm not just pulling this out of my butt. I've done the initial tri-set myself many, many times in the past. In my version, I sometimes finish with either DB presses or DB upright rows.

You guys are thinking of order in the sense of exercise to exercise (as if performed separately). The point of this routine is to fully fatigue the shoulders from all angles 'before' hitting them with the assist of other muscles in the overhead press.

I fully understand the point of this routine. In addition to what I've already said, you should be fatiguing them in a logical order from weakest to strongest --- sort of like JReps is set up!

The front raise isn't necessarily that much weaker than the side raise but it does not have the traps to help.

I'm not sure if I'm following you there. IMO, the LRs have more potential for trap involvement than FRs, but only if your concentration is lacking.

If you have problems getting good reps to the front change where you palms are facing and bend your arms more.

Been there, done that, and it only helps a little. The problem with the thumbs-up/palms-facing is that it brings the biceps into the movement. I prefer to keep my hands at about a 30 to 45-degree angle for the best of both worlds.

Going to the side raise last leaves you either cheating too much to get at that important lateral head or having to use too light a load to properly fatigue the rear dealt.

Again, I think you're speaking mainly for yourself there.

Since my side laterals have received the most direct training, they are in fact the strongest. Therefore, I must fatigue the overall delts for the third part of the tri-set to be stimulating/fatiguing enough for my lateral head --- it's either that, or start the tri-set with DBs that may be too heavy to use in strict form for the rear delts (much less get a decent number of reps).

I can't stress that the order may need to change for some people. But, don't take my or anyone's opinion for that. Find out for yourself.

Scott
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Paul Marsland

That picture of Scott Wilson is one of the pictures that defines bodybuilding for me. The routine listed is practically the same as what I'm doing now bar the front raises!

I do: rear delt machine (halves extremes)
Seated Machine Laterals (halves extremes)
Seated Shoulder Press ( Halves Extremes)
Wide Grip Upright Rows (Halves extremes)


Works a treat!

Paul.
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FamilyMan

Missouri, USA

My wife Kari & I are doing this challenge too.

We had to start today because of upcoming responsibilities. It is good stuff. My deltoids ached after doing the shoulder superset.
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james pate

Ontario, CAN

Additional 6 exercises to shoulder routine.
Here are my choices

Leg Press
Leg Curl
Leg Extension
Bicep Curl
Neg Chin
Neg Dip

Do you think the chins and dips will complement the workout or be a little too much?

Regards
James
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

james pate wrote:
Additional 6 exercises to shoulder routine.
Here are my choices

Leg Press
Leg Curl
Leg Extension
Bicep Curl
Neg Chin
Neg Dip

Do you think the chins and dips will complement the workout or be a little too much?

Regards
James


IF you include them, just don't make them negative. In fact, I would even recommend you do them NTF fashion.

While you're at it, cut back on the leg work too. Maybe do squats and leg curls one workout and leg ext and calves the next.

1. You don't want anything robbing your delts of their growth in the 2 weeks.

2. Don't worry about "losing" anything from your other muscles in that time either.

Scott
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saseme

I train at home with only a barbell set. Would an acceptable substitution be bentover row to chest, followed by upright row, followed by front raise, followed by standing shoulder press? I can strip and adjust weights quite quickly if need be, and have noticed much of the same movement in the bentover row to chest and with the rear lateral, and also with the upright row and the lateral raise. It would also still leave my triceps fresh for the shoulder press. I may need to run the front raises before the upright row though.
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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

simon-hecubus wrote:

I can't stress that the order may need to change for some people. But, don't take my or anyone's opinion for that. Find out for yourself.

Scott


Yes Scott, you are always challenging me but I like that. You are right on all counts but where our opinions differ is in the fine detail. It isn't really worth debating but I like to and the devil is in the details as they say.

From experience at not analyzing things in a static environment, this is what I have noted. (It is also why I didn't recommend a change of order to Dr. Darden). Based on the total effects of the routine as a 'whole':

With the side raise you inevitably bring in the upper back musculature even in good form. Under the duress and fatigue of previous shoulder sets with no rest this is even a bigger problem. Furthermore, people do tend to have better tolerance to training with the side raise but not necessarily better strength. Rowing and pressing offers plenty of good work to front and rear delts over time.

The difference I have noted is in tolerance to the discomfort of side raises, pepole just don't often train their delts front and back in isolation. This doesn't mean they won't work them hard just that their tolerance to the discomfort is lower.

The shoulder works as a unit and you are simply trying to fatigue the full unit before you get the press assist. It is a complex unit but it stays together, you use the multiple angles to be deep and thorough in fatiguing it - NOT to bring into play different muscles. You don't get much rear work in the finsihing overhead press so you train it first when fresh and thus hit it the hardest with regards to load, TUT and isolation.

In the press you use plenty of front delt targeting and thus if you went to the side raise last in the DB cycle what would happen? After back and front, the work in your side raise would be noticeably less than what you could do in a straight set.

Thus, you hit the front delt last and even if it isn't worked as long or as hard (TUT/rep count) as back and side it is immediately slaughtered by the press. The rear and side are slightly rested from time concentrating on the front and with the triceps, back, chest etc. they fully and deeply fatigue and fry the from head of the delts.

Again this is about the giant set NOT the individual elements. I have tried it all ways and this order worked best except for those with extremely poor front delts. Even in that case the pressing made up for it for the most part.

Splitting hairs perhaps but I am all about optimizing and the order is sound I wouldn't change it except for pure variety but then I would alter more than just the DB order.

Thanks for your thoughts, never let me off the hook!

Regards,
Andrew

P.S. This is the difference between trying to pull things off as a Stage Rep - Press as opposed to a Zone Training/JReps based set. In the former each must work independently before being combined. In the latter you combine for the greater whole which you create from scratch...that is bodybuilding!


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Ellington Darden

James,

I believe Scott is right. I would not recommend that you include negative-only chins and dips in the shoulder routine.

Ellington
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Ellington Darden

saseme wrote:
I train at home with only a barbell set. Would an acceptable substitution be bentover row to chest, followed by upright row, followed by front raise, followed by standing shoulder press? I can strip and adjust weights quite quickly if need be, and have noticed much of the same movement in the bentover row to chest and with the rear lateral, and also with the upright row and the lateral raise. It would also still leave my triceps fresh for the shoulder press. I may need to run the front raises before the upright row though.


Yeah, I'd like to see you try the substitutions you listed. Be sure and perform the overhead press in thirds: middle, top, and bottom.

Let me know your results.

Ellington

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james pate

Ontario, CAN

Thanks Scott and Ellington.
I will drop the neg chins and dips and rotate out the legs 2 and 2.
Regards
James
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noone

New York, USA

OK, I am in. I just got back from vacation yesterday. I ate too much. I drank too much. Monday will be 10 days off for me, so I am ready to get back into it.

Any thoughts on a chest specialization routine?

Bret
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

AShortt wrote:
In the press you use plenty of front delt targeting and thus if you went to the side raise last in the DB cycle what would happen? After back and front, the work in your side raise would be noticeably less than what you could do in a straight set.


True, but as you said this about working the the delt heads as a whole, right? So then what does it matter whether I'm using less weight or not?

With the logic you used above, I should be starting the tri-set with the laterals right? That way I could use the maximum weight possibelf ro my lateral head!

No, that would be stupid, since my rear and front heads couldn't hang with that weight at all...

If I want to keep the reps in the same range for each part of the tri-set, then I should go from weakest movement to strongest. It shouldn't need to be any more complicated than that.

Thus, you hit the front delt last and even if it isn't worked as long or as hard (TUT/rep count) as back and side it is immediately slaughtered by the press. The rear and side are slightly rested from time concentrating on the front and with the triceps, back, chest etc. they fully and deeply fatigue and fry the from head of the delts..

With my FTF delts, I like the idea of using the lateral raises to give the front head a bit of a breather and then hit it hard again for the presses. [however with FTF muscles, your own philosophy might dictate that my delts aren't good candidates for this routine at all]

Wait a minute, isn't this a shoulder WIDTH routine? If so, then why wouldn't we want to do the laterals last and then "fry" the lateral head even further with some behind-the-neck presses?

P.S. This is the difference between trying to pull things off as a Stage Rep - Press as opposed to a Zone Training/JReps based set. In the former each must work independently before being combined. In the latter you combine for the greater whole which you create from scratch...that is bodybuilding!

But the underlying philosophy should remain the same and be quite as simple:
Go from the weakest movement to the strongest in the raises, followed by a pressing movement. Period.

I really don't understand why you're coming up with all these convoluted arguements. Is the devil really in the details or are you just letting the details bedevil you? ;-)

Scott
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NewYorker

New York, USA

I think you would do much better with a machine routine:

1) Nitro reverse fly, immediately folowed by
2) Nitro chest fly, immediately folowed by
3) Nitro lateral raise, immediately folowed by
4) Nitro overhead press, immediately folowed by
5) Hammer seated shrugs, immediately folowed by
6) 2ST neck extension alternate with 2ST neck flexion, short rest
7) Nitro leg press
8) Nitro biceps
9) Nitro triceps
10) Nitro abdominal
11) Nitro lowback
12) Wrist Curl alternate with reverse wrist curl.

Twice a week. All exercises performed in good form for 40 to 90 secs, and no partial/stage reps.

Three weeks would probably be about right.

I'd love to have the resources to do a study testing this routine (or any commonsense machine routine) against free weights. I'd bet the ranch on the machines.

I'd bet you'd see:
1) more muscle mass with the machines
2) a shorter workout with the machines
3) more strength with the machines
4) a higher ending heart rate with the machines
5) less injuries with the machines
6) a lower drop-out rate with the machines

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Ellington Darden

New Yorker,

I'm a Nautilus-machine man, deluxe . . . but the primary problem is there are very few serious bodybuilders any more who have access to a full line of Nautilus machines. Twenty-five to 30 years ago, they were everywhere. Today, they are scattered about and remain mostly unused. And the facilities that do have Nautilus machines (and MedX) are used by people who are not serious bodybuilders.

Ellington
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RobT

Ok - Ready to go with my first session on Monday - hoping to get over 21' and waist should be back under 30' by the end of the two weeks.

my other six exercises look like this:

Squat (NTF)
SLDL
DB Calf raises
Pec Fly
Bent over row (reverse grip)
Trunk curl

Good luck to everyone else taking part.

Rob T
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