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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

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Paul Marsland

If your going to quote please use my name instead of mike's I take it this was an error.

I too recieve a lot of mail from others in regards to training, have written articles which have been published on the net, magazines and books and have a web site (though this was just for for fun) I also ran a succesful exercise discussion board for two years and train people in my spare time. Does this make me world renowed? Personally I don't think so..more power to you if you're happy to lay claim to that title, I'm a bit more humble than that.

Paul.
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Nwlifter

No disrespect at all there but a 1/4 second? One cannot even produce full MVC in a quarter second... Also,there is no time for energetic activity... Further, load matters very little, it's the activation and time that is most relevant. Looking at the science, the tension time intergral is a more accurate marker of hypertrophic signaling than the load.
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M Lipowski

New York, USA

Paul Marsland wrote:
If your going to quote please use my name instead of mike's I take it this was an error.

I too recieve a lot of mail from others in regards to training, have written articles which have been published on the net, magazines and books and have a web site (though this was just for for fun) I also ran a succesful exercise discussion board for two years and train people in my spare time. Does this make me world renowed? Personally I don't think so..more power to you if you're happy to lay claim to that title, I'm a bit more humble than that.

Paul.


Thanks Paul, I was about to comment on that...I haven't even posted on this thread (until now) and still got dragged in.

...But while I'm here:

Drew,

If, or when, you actually write your own book you'll quickly learn that a traditional publisher is not the way to go. Not in this day and age. Unless your last name King, Patterson, Brown or Rowlings you don't make a dime if you go with a traditional publisher. Most authors are lucky to make fifty-cents on a book and YOU still have to do most of your own PR. Traditional publishers will not go out their way for you unless they see something of a "buzz" around your book. It can also take years to have a publisher finally pick you up and in this field your information is old by then.

Before anyone points to Dr. D, he's been in the game of writting books for a long time and was able to establish himself at a time when there were not a fraction of the "experts" there are today and so although it may still not have been easy to get published back then, it was not even close to being as hard as it is today.

Most of the known fitness authors today made their name by being a trainer for some celebrity which makes a big difference in one's ability to 'get published'. I for one would not consider going with a traditional publisher unless things magically blew up so big that it wouldn't make sense not to. There's too much money to made if you know how to 'do it yourself' and too much to be be lost if you don't. Or even worse, your message NEVER gets out b/c you're too busy trying to find someone to pick you up.

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Drew Baye

Florida, USA

Paul Marsland wrote:
How did you sell out?

Drew, because by doing the forward to a book that is built around pure commercial hype, such is the nature of the books written by both Sisco and Little. Using such things as "world renowed" and "add 18lbs in just four weeks!!" and you're telling me this is not pure hype designed to sell??


The fact that the publishers used hype on the cover doesn't mean I "sold out" in any way. Please define exactly what you mean by "sell out" any way, since I was under the impression it meant to do something one might otherwise not do or agree with for the sake of money, but I neither disagree with anything in the book, nor do I make any money from it. I read it, I thought it was interesting and informative, and that people would get good results using the method where practical.


Paul Marsland wrote:
I buy Johnstons books because they are well written and informative, not for a flashy cover and some slick tagline.


Some of them are, and some of them aren't. I like and recommend a few, but not all of them.


Paul Marsland wrote:
Johnston even tried to go the commerical route with EP magazine, but as history shows, people don't want the TRUTH, they'd rather follow some champs routine or some new wonder supplement, and lambast in their poor gains, looking forward to the next glossy magazine in the HOPE that,......... that issue will contain the secret to their gains exploding. Little's books are built and sold on the same premise, hence as I said you sold out...


Little's books aren't built on the same premise. Perhaps if you actually read them, or if you spent any time talking with him, you'd realize he's one of the few honest, sincere people in this field. When I'm done transcribing the interview I did with him you can read what he has to say about the muscle magazines, which isn't much different than what you mention above.


Paul Marsland wrote:
Personally I would have given you more credit than to contribute to a book such as this.


Have you even read the book?


Paul Marsland wrote:
It appears that you have gone from one extreme to the other, once you were the arch enenmy of employing heavy loads for heavys sake ala superslow, now you proclaim that heavy resistance is the be all and end all to exercise.


Nowhere do I claim heavy resistance is the be all end all to exercise, and on several occassions I've mentioned that while it is the most important, it isn't the only factor, as well as that one should use the heaviest resistance possible in good form and for the appropriate TUL for that individual. This is not the same as simply using the heaviest weight possible.


Paul Marsland wrote:
But,and which you deny to be true and even are as bold as to say Johnston or anyone else who employs zone training is deluded, or making it up.


I didn't say people using zone training are deluded, only that I haven't seen any evidence that it is any more effective than any other repetition method for producing strength or size gains. This isn't the same as saying it doesn't work.


Paul Marsland wrote:
However such is the experience of myself, Johnston, Short,Lipowski,....ALL who have travelled the load/intensity is king path, to find that superior gains have been brought about by using loads which are much less than what we were typically lifting a year ago.


And what else are you doing differently? If I'm not mistaken, you're currently or were recently using steroids? Or was it someone else?


Paul Marsland wrote:
Take it or leave it, but it's the truth Drew, zone training as produced better gains for me than any other method I have ever employed and believe me I've tried just about every method there is and then some.


Good for you.


Paul Marsland wrote:
In a nutshell Omega Reps may prove effective in the short term, however due to there very limited application and potential for injury this in my opinion makes the method an inferior method of training, as it has too many short falls, despite what the book may state.


I agree that it is impractical due to the requirement for very high loads and the need for one or more several strong training partners, but like negative-only, it is effective if used properly.

We're currently trying to figure a way to use it with our equipment, but unfortunately there is no room to stand on the Nautilus Nitro weight stacks (they're not very wide and the side stacks get in the way) and I'd prefer not to do it one limb at a time. Someone with Eccentric Edge equipment could do it easily, however, and I believe Charlie Haire has been using it with excellent results with his EE equipment.

I certainly wouldn't call it "inferior", just difficult to implement.


Paul Marsland wrote:
On the other hand zone training DOES work and can be used by anyone, requires no extra spotters or equipment, no extreme loads and there is minimal potential for injury, by this very nature it makes it far superior to omega reps for the purpose of increasing muscle mass and improving appearance. THAT'S why I've continued to use it for nearly eight months now and will continue to do so...


I still haven't seen anything that leads me to believe it is any more effective than any other method, or traditional stage reps, but if it's working for you, great.

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Drew Baye

Florida, USA

Paul Marsland wrote:
If your going to quote please use my name instead of mike's I take it this was an error.


I apologize to both you and Mike. Often when replying to posts, I simply copy and paste the first line with the "quote" and "so and so wrote:" to avoid having to type it over and over again. I must have accidentally pasted Mike's after having copied it when replying to another post. I have edited the post to correct this.
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Drew Baye

Florida, USA

M Lipowski wrote:
Drew,

If, or when, you actually write your own book you'll quickly learn that a traditional publisher is not the way to go. Not in this day and age. Unless your last name King, Patterson, Brown or Rowlings you don't make a dime if you go with a traditional publisher. Most authors are lucky to make fifty-cents on a book and YOU still have to do most of your own PR. Traditional publishers will not go out their way for you unless they see something of a "buzz" around your book. It can also take years to have a publisher finally pick you up and in this field your information is old by then.


I'd rather go with a traditional publisher and have the book more widely distributed than self-publish. Even if it takes a long time for a book to be picked up, there's no reason I couldn't update the manuscript for publication.
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jn6047

Drew, you might want to look at having a fabricated step made to slide over the top of the weight stack and hang down.

jn6047
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Paul Marsland

Drew Baye wrote:
Paul Marsland wrote:
How did you sell out?

Drew, because by doing the forward to a book that is built around pure commercial hype, such is the nature of the books written by both Sisco and Little. Using such things as "world renowed" and "add 18lbs in just four weeks!!" and you're telling me this is not pure hype designed to sell??

The fact that the publishers used hype on the cover doesn't mean I "sold out" in any way. Please define exactly what you mean by "sell out" any way, since I was under the impression it meant to do something one might otherwise not do or agree with for the sake of money, but I neither disagree with anything in the book, nor do I make any money from it. I read it, I thought it was interesting and informative, and that people would get good results using the method where practical.

----------------------------------------
I sometimes find Flex magazine interesting and informative, but doesn't mean I support it's views or would contribute to it. Little's books, which I have read by the way, offer nothing new, Sisco's are even worse. Just for the record I was using Static Contraction Training when Little first discussed some 10+ years ago, myself and my training partner used it for a bit and the guys in our called nicknamed us the dynamic tension twins!

Gains from this method? Zero. I used Power Factor training when it came out in 1994 (bought into the hype) Although I did gain some, the pains in my joints made the method impractical for long terms application, so the method of training in zones or partials was on the right track (hence zone training now) but the use of super heavy loads (based on the premise that heavy loads are somehow superior) is what killed the method. Like I said when it comes to buying and reading weight training books and high intensity training methods I've been there done that.

----------------------------------------


Paul Marsland wrote:
I buy Johnstons books because they are well written and informative, not for a flashy cover and some slick tagline.

Some of them are, and some of them aren't. I like and recommend a few, but not all of them.

----------------------------------------
I wouldn't recommedend any of little's or sisco's books as the methods are of little practical use, they may sound and appear valid on paper but when put into practise fall down.
----------------------------------------


Paul Marsland wrote:
Johnston even tried to go the commerical route with EP magazine, but as history shows, people don't want the TRUTH, they'd rather follow some champs routine or some new wonder supplement, and lambast in their poor gains, looking forward to the next glossy magazine in the HOPE that,......... that issue will contain the secret to their gains exploding. Little's books are built and sold on the same premise, hence as I said you sold out...

Little's books aren't built on the same premise. Perhaps if you actually read them, or if you spent any time talking with him, you'd realize he's one of the few honest, sincere people in this field. When I'm done transcribing the interview I did with him you can read what he has to say about the muscle magazines, which isn't much different than what you mention above.
----------------------------------------



As I said I have read littles books and they contain pictures of genetically gifted and steroid enhanced physiques again designed to sell. I'm very familiar with his writings and I still recall fondly the interview he did with Mentzer for the British Version of Flex Magazine many many years ago. Considering his stance on the muscle magazines I'm surprised he then chose to go the hype route to sell his book.

----------------------------------------

Paul Marsland wrote:
Personally I would have given you more credit than to contribute to a book such as this.

Have you even read the book?

----------------------------------------

I haven' read the advanced book, but based on his previous books I'll decline purchasing at this time.

----------------------------------------
Paul Marsland wrote:
It appears that you have gone from one extreme to the other, once you were the arch enenmy of employing heavy loads for heavys sake ala superslow, now you proclaim that heavy resistance is the be all and end all to exercise.

Nowhere do I claim heavy resistance is the be all end all to exercise, and on several occassions I've mentioned that while it is the most important, it isn't the only factor, as well as that one should use the heaviest resistance possible in good form and for the appropriate TUL for that individual. This is not the same as simply using the heaviest weight possible.

----------------------------------------

Many people disagree with you that load isn't the most important and can back this up with practial experience. Isn't Omeage reps using the heaviest weight possible, how could you possibly use even more weight than this mehtod allows, your talking about having people stand on weight stacks for added resistance!

_--------------------------------------


Paul Marsland wrote:
But,and which you deny to be true and even are as bold as to say Johnston or anyone else who employs zone training is deluded, or making it up.

I didn't say people using zone training are deluded, only that I haven't seen any evidence that it is any more effective than any other repetition method for producing strength or size gains. This isn't the same as saying it doesn't work.
----------------------------------------Now you're lying, you stated in a previous post that Johnston could be lying or those that support could be making it up and that the photo's could have been photoshopped.

--------------------------------------



Paul Marsland wrote:
However such is the experience of myself, Johnston, Short,Lipowski,....ALL who have travelled the load/intensity is king path, to find that superior gains have been brought about by using loads which are much less than what we were typically lifting a year ago.

And what else are you doing differently? If I'm not mistaken, you're currently or were recently using steroids? Or was it someone else?

----------------------------------------
Oh, here we go, the old "your gains are all drugs line"...........sigh.....


Yes I have and do use steroids, but as I've stated on here and other boards when discussing Jreps and steroids.

I have used steroids when using other training protocols and the gains are nothing when compared to using steroids and when applying Jreps, THAT's the difference. All things equal inlcuding steroids use, Jreps have produced far better gains and minimised my losses when coming off. If Jreps didn't I wouldn't continue to use them, as what would be the point?
----------------------------------------
Paul Marsland wrote:
Take it or leave it, but it's the truth Drew, zone training as produced better gains for me than any other method I have ever employed and believe me I've tried just about every method there is and then some.

Good for you.
----------------------------------------

Paul Marsland wrote:
In a nutshell Omega Reps may prove effective in the short term, however due to there very limited application and potential for injury this in my opinion makes the method an inferior method of training, as it has too many short falls, despite what the book may state.

I agree that it is impractical due to the requirement for very high loads and the need for one or more several strong training partners, but like negative-only, it is effective if used properly.

----------------------------------------How can it be used properly, it's impractical to say the least. How can having someone stand on a weight stand be classed as proper? The dangers of this practise should be clear.

----------------------------------------


We're currently trying to figure a way to use it with our equipment, but unfortunately there is no room to stand on the Nautilus Nitro weight stacks (they're not very wide and the side stacks get in the way) and I'd prefer not to do it one limb at a time. Someone with Eccentric Edge equipment could do it easily, however, and I believe Charlie Haire has been using it with excellent results with his EE equipment.

I certainly wouldn't call it "inferior", just difficult to implement.

----------------------------------------
I don't deny it produces results, but are the results any better than is being produced by Jreps? I doubt it, but as Jreps doesn't require super heavy loads, special equipment, then in this regard it is inferior to a method for the purpose of increasing muscle mass.

----------------------------------------

Paul Marsland wrote:
On the other hand zone training DOES work and can be used by anyone, requires no extra spotters or equipment, no extreme loads and there is minimal potential for injury, by this very nature it makes it far superior to omega reps for the purpose of increasing muscle mass and improving appearance. THAT'S why I've continued to use it for nearly eight months now and will continue to do so...

I still haven't seen anything that leads me to believe it is any more effective than any other method, or traditional stage reps, but if it's working for you, great.





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M Lipowski

New York, USA

Drew Baye wrote:
M Lipowski wrote:
Drew,

If, or when, you actually write your own book you'll quickly learn that a traditional publisher is not the way to go. Not in this day and age. Unless your last name King, Patterson, Brown or Rowlings you don't make a dime if you go with a traditional publisher. Most authors are lucky to make fifty-cents on a book and YOU still have to do most of your own PR. Traditional publishers will not go out their way for you unless they see something of a "buzz" around your book. It can also take years to have a publisher finally pick you up and in this field your information is old by then.

I'd rather go with a traditional publisher and have the book more widely distributed than self-publish. Even if it takes a long time for a book to be picked up, there's no reason I couldn't update the manuscript for publication.


I hear what you're saying from a distribution standpoint so check this out. The self-publishing company I work with (Advantage Media, www.advantageww.com) acts just like a traditional publisher; they did my cover design, the interior formatting of the book, got the ISBN # and the book is distrubted world-wide. You can get my book in 25,000 book stores across the US and on Amazon.com, B&N.com, Books-a-Million.com, Borders.com, etc, etc. as well as my website www.PurePhysique.com


I reserve all the rights and can pick up and leave at any time if I choose to go with a traditional publisher in the future. I get everything you get with a traditional publisher but without the restrictions and a better % on each book sold.

If you want more info on the company email me.

Mike
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Drew Baye

Florida, USA

jn6047 wrote:
Drew, you might want to look at having a fabricated step made to slide over the top of the weight stack and hang down.

jn6047


One of the things I'd considered before was attaching motorcycle pegs to the top plate, which could be flipped down when needed. The problem with using a step or pedal is the torque from the bodyweight is going to cause a lot of friction between the bushings in the top plate and the guide rods, and over time might even bend the guide rods somewhat. We're going to have to limit it to one limb at a time.

The Nautilus Nitro just really isn't well suited to super-heavy types of training like Max Contraction or negative-only.

Although I do not like plateloaded equipment for a personal training studio, since the constant loading and unloading is not time efficient and wears on instructors, but they're better suited to this because they can hold more weight, have extremely low friction, and the weight horns serve both as handholds to help raise the weight or to apply negative resistance.
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Drew Baye

Florida, USA

M Lipowski wrote:

I reserve all the rights and can pick up and leave at any time if I choose to go with a traditional publisher in the future.


This is my biggest concern, retaining the rights and editorial control. It's going to be a while before I publish anything for the public (busy now working on internal publications for employees) but that might be the best way to go for our internal stuff.
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deanjones

When are we going to start having normal posts on this forum again and not a panty-wad fight between Brian, Andrew and Drew?

I've been reading this forum less and less because every thread I start to get into, one of you guys ends up provoking the other in a most childish way. Andrew especially... (Sorry, but from what I've seen, it's true). Then the other person takes the bait and there is an argument that really starts to become geared more towards throwing rocks than making a point. It's tiring...
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Drew Baye

Florida, USA

deanjones wrote:
When are we going to start having normal posts on this forum again and not a panty-wad fight between Brian, Andrew and Drew?


Very soon, because in the time I spent posting here yesterday I could have finished at least one of the writing projects I'm working on. I need to spend more time working on writing projects and less time on the forum, so I'm going to have to take a break from here for a while.
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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

deanjones wrote:
When are we going to start having normal posts on this forum again and not a panty-wad fight between Brian, Andrew and Drew?

I've been reading this forum less and less because every thread I start to get into, one of you guys ends up provoking the other in a most childish way. Andrew especially... (Sorry, but from what I've seen, it's true). Then the other person takes the bait and there is an argument that really starts to become geared more towards throwing rocks than making a point. It's tiring...


Arguing and taking the time and energy (spurred by a bit of emotional intensity) is one of the best ways to learn. Chitchat about that which we agree about or disagree but not strongly is fine.

However, a lot of that is just passing time and sharing a bit of info amongst like minds. It doesn't do much for the act of progress, in fact all the casual agreement often leads to large groups all holding mistaken ideas then being unwilling to let them go.

This is why thinkers and thinking institutions hold debate clubs in high regard. I mean you think this is bad, have a look at my countries House of Commons debates! Just skip the arguments if you don't want to read them and skip my posts and you will be fine.

BTW, if you think I am just blowing smoke about this point of view think again. When I work with Johnston on something we clash big time. For our recent DVD he cut a whole scene that I argued for and was totally against my approach to another.

We have in many ways diametrically opposed approaches to almost everything. The end result though was something better than either of us could have done on our own.

Regards,
Andrew


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Paul25

deanjones wrote:
When are we going to start having normal posts on this forum again and not a panty-wad fight between Brian, Andrew and Drew?

I've been reading this forum less and less because every thread I start to get into, one of you guys ends up provoking the other in a most childish way. Andrew especially... (Sorry, but from what I've seen, it's true). Then the other person takes the bait and there is an argument that really starts to become geared more towards throwing rocks than making a point. It's tiring...



Tottally agree with this post and agree all I seem to see this Andrew post is abbusive non constructive posts!



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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

Paul25 wrote:
deanjones wrote:
When are we going to start having normal posts on this forum again and not a panty-wad fight between Brian, Andrew and Drew?

I've been reading this forum less and less because every thread I start to get into, one of you guys ends up provoking the other in a most childish way. Andrew especially... (Sorry, but from what I've seen, it's true). Then the other person takes the bait and there is an argument that really starts to become geared more towards throwing rocks than making a point. It's tiring...


Tottally agree with this post and agree all I seem to see this Andrew post is abbusive non constructive posts!





Show me just one.

Regards,
Andrew
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Paul25

AShortt wrote:
Paul25 wrote:
deanjones wrote:
When are we going to start having normal posts on this forum again and not a panty-wad fight between Brian, Andrew and Drew?

I've been reading this forum less and less because every thread I start to get into, one of you guys ends up provoking the other in a most childish way. Andrew especially... (Sorry, but from what I've seen, it's true). Then the other person takes the bait and there is an argument that really starts to become geared more towards throwing rocks than making a point. It's tiring...


Tottally agree with this post and agree all I seem to see this Andrew post is abbusive non constructive posts!





Show me just one.

Regards,
Andrew


lol is the answer m8!



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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

Paul25 wrote:

Tottally agree with this post and agree all I seem to see this Andrew post is abbusive non constructive posts!

Show me just one.

Regards,
Andrew


lol is the answer m8!



Bud, don't turn troll. I have been moded at least 4-5 times since joining this site when I was just being insulting.

If I was abbusive those posts would be gone, comments like yours are leading and inflammatory becuase you provide O substance.
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john38

Oklahoma, USA

AShortt wrote:
deanjones wrote:
When are we going to start having normal posts on this forum again and not a panty-wad fight between Brian, Andrew and Drew?

I've been reading this forum less and less because every thread I start to get into, one of you guys ends up provoking the other in a most childish way. Andrew especially... (Sorry, but from what I've seen, it's true). Then the other person takes the bait and there is an argument that really starts to become geared more towards throwing rocks than making a point. It's tiring...

Arguing and taking the time and energy (spurred by a bit of emotional intensity) is one of the best ways to learn. Chitchat about that which we agree about or disagree but not strongly is fine.

However, a lot of that is just passing time and sharing a bit of info amongst like minds. It doesn't do much for the act of progress, in fact all the casual agreement often leads to large groups all holding mistaken ideas then being unwilling to let them go.

This is why thinkers and thinking institutions hold debate clubs in high regard. I mean you think this is bad, have a look at my countries House of Commons debates! Just skip the arguments if you don't want to read them and skip my posts and you will be fine.

BTW, if you think I am just blowing smoke about this point of view think again. When I work with Johnston on something we clash big time. For our recent DVD he cut a whole scene that I argued for and was totally against my approach to another.

We have in many ways diametrically opposed approaches to almost everything. The end result though was something better than either of us could have done on our own.

Regards,
Andrew





Well, you can roll over tonight and give him a big kiss before you go to sleep ok? Will that make you feel better? WHAAAAAAAA!
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john38

Oklahoma, USA

Drew,
You didn't sell out, this is just another way to keep thier method on the books without bringing it up themselves. You would think as "objectivists" they would be applauding you. Does the word hippocrite come to mind when they start posting?
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john38

Oklahoma, USA

AShortt wrote:
Not to be out done ;^)

Sorry Brian, couldn't resist...lol!



this is a good pic of Brian. Not to be insulting, but could the pants come up any higher?

You must have this pic in your bathroom or something. Man how queer!

And no I'm not gonna post any pics. Sorry Andrew you'll just have to settle for BJ's dreamy eyes!
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Paul25

AShortt wrote:
Paul25 wrote:

Tottally agree with this post and agree all I seem to see this Andrew post is abbusive non constructive posts!

Show me just one.

Regards,
Andrew


lol is the answe



Bud, don't turn troll. I have been moded at least 4-5 times since joining this site when I was just being insulting.

If I was abbusive those posts would be gone, comments like yours are leading and inflammatory becuase you provide O substance.


lol i'm not even going to go there!

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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

Paul25 wrote:
AShortt wrote:
Paul25 wrote:

Tottally agree with this post and agree all I seem to see this Andrew post is abbusive non constructive posts!

Show me just one.

Regards,
Andrew


lol is the answe



Bud, don't turn troll. I have been moded at least 4-5 times since joining this site when I was just being insulting.

If I was abbusive those posts would be gone, comments like yours are leading and inflammatory becuase you provide O substance.

lol i'm not even going to go there!



So you just take the time to post empty denegrating things about me. You will come back each time to this thread to respond but only to add lol...troll.
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jack32

john38 wrote:
Drew,
You didn't sell out, this is just another way to keep thier method on the books without bringing it up themselves. You would think as "objectivists" they would be applauding you. Does the word hippocrite come to mind when they start posting?


what in hell is the word hippocrite?
are you referring to those big crates they ship hippos in?
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jack32

john38 wrote:
AShortt wrote:
Not to be out done ;^)

Sorry Brian, couldn't resist...lol!



this is a good pic of Brian. Not to be insulting, but could the pants come up any higher?

You must have this pic in your bathroom or something. Man how queer!

And no I'm not gonna post any pics. Sorry Andrew you'll just have to settle for BJ's dreamy eyes!


dude,
it's interesting that you're the one studying the pic of johnston and the location of his pants.
perhaps you wanted the top of those pants to be more at crotch/ pubic hair level.
sounds like you're a bit dissapointed!
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