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Reverse Hyperextension
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Iron395

I have recently joined a new gym. It is a longer drive, but is open 24 hours. This allows me to train at off peak times with very little interference in a fast paced whole body training session.

The gym has some great Nautilus and Hammer plate-loaded equipment.The gym also has a Louie Simmons reverse hyper-extension machine. I wanted to know if anyone has any input on this particular piece of equipment.
If there are any potential dangers etc.
Thanks in advance,
Tom
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marcrph

Portugal

This information comes from Dr. Stuart McGill. All of the readers who think Dr. McGill is "full of bunk" can feel free to ignore this post.

Pg. 333, "Ultimate Back Fitness And Performance", Second Edition, by Dr.Stuart McGill PhD,

"The hip extension machine(reverse hyper) produces large posterior shear forces on the low back - this can create patients. It will create problems in some and should be considered with great caution. Cable pulls between the legs (BIO-FORCE mentioned this also) is an alternative that produces much more "physiological" loads on the spine."

And some thought thought that Dr. McGill had a "hate-on" just for Nautilus and MedX. Not so!
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Ben_R

Hi Tom,
This is a great piece of equipment. You will derive more benefit from it if you perform each rep from a dead stop (do not use momentum at the bottom) and hold the top contracted position for at least a 1 second count.

I also perform this exercise in Stage Reps as the top third stage is harder than the bottom third.
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jn6047

I've been wanting to try one of these machines out. I can see it being very beneficial for stretching out the back in a more comfortable way than regular hyperextensions.

jn6047
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Robert Francis

New York, USA

jn6047 wrote:
I've been wanting to try one of these machines out. I can see it being very beneficial for stretching out the back in a more comfortable way than regular hyperextensions.

jn6047


Why don't you just get it over with and fetch up an old duo hip & back.

No need to expend all that effort to sustain that upper body seesaw as it jacks in reaction to the lower limb extension.
Most gyms that have an old dh&b are happy to let you have it if you just get it out of there.

Zand.
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Michael Petrella

Ontario, CAN

zanderinst wrote:
jn6047 wrote:
I've been wanting to try one of these machines out. I can see it being very beneficial for stretching out the back in a more comfortable way than regular hyperextensions.

jn6047

Why don't you just get it over with and fetch up an old duo hip & back.

No need to expend all that effort to sustain that upper body seesaw as it jacks in reaction to the lower limb extension.
Most gyms that have an old dh&b are happy to let you have it if you just get it out of there.

Zand.


So sad that this is true about the duo-hip and back. If only the athletes at that gym new of the potential benefits it could give them. Any sports like Football, Rugby, Hockey, Track, literally anything where taking a power balance stance and explosive power is needed for best performence. Working the biggest strongest muscles through there full range of motion, Incredible. I got mine for $70. If you got the room and its an option, buy the machine. If you are lucky enough to find one with a fixed movement arm instead of one for each leg then you are really in luck. everyone on here said it is awsome but I was unable to find one.

Michael

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Cherry

amzing that every manufacturer that i know of prefers to make that stupid standing hip ext. the old nautilus duo-hip was a killer, i feared that as much as the leg press if not more. does any manuf make one even close these days?
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Landau

Florida, USA

The Time Machine Version of the Duo Poly Hip and Back I will be receiving tomorrow. It is a bit narrower than the circa 1978 - 1983 version, and I believe it was produced in 1975 and it is the best one I have ever used.
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Cherry

Landau wrote:
The Time Machine Version of the Duo Poly Hip and Back I will be receiving tomorrow. It is a bit narrower than the circa 1978 - 1983 version, and I believe it was produced in 1975 and it is the best one I have ever used.


Would you post a pic i'd love to see it!
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hdled

The Louie Simmons reverse hyper-extension machine, similar to the Nautilus Low Back Machine, is primarily a hip extension exercise. It does not provide significant resistance for the lumbar muscles and does not work them, at all, through a full range of motion. And I would tend to agree that the machine produces shearing forces in the lower lumbar spine.
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Charles Coulter

New York, USA

In Dr. Darden's book "Massive Muscles in 10 weeks", he recommends using the "reverse leg raise", which is what the movement was called before the reverse hyper was available.

Something to be ready for if you decide to use them as a hip extension movement. Especially after say squats or leg presses, you will likely feel a nauseous feeling along with your "pulse" in your hips. Takes a bit getting used to.

Also be careful dismounting the machine immediately after finishing your set, so as not to be hit with the weight arm/plates.

Charles

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jn6047

Hammer Strenght does have a similar machine to the DHB, but I would still like to try a true reverse hyper machine. I can see the benefit for putting the low back in a position of traction/decompression especially with having herniated a disc in my back a couple of times last year.

jn6047
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Charles Coulter

New York, USA

JN, I'd get your doctor's clearence prior to using any machine with a known herniated disc.
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Drew Baye

Florida, USA

marcrph wrote:
Pg. 333, "Ultimate Back Fitness And Performance", Second Edition, by Dr.Stuart McGill PhD,

"The hip extension machine(reverse hyper) produces large posterior shear forces on the low back - this can create patients. It will create problems in some and should be considered with great caution. Cable pulls between the legs (BIO-FORCE mentioned this also) is an alternative that produces much more "physiological" loads on the spine."


The fact that shear forces occur during a particular exercise alone doesn't automatically make the exercise unsafe. It depends on the magnitude of those forces and the condition of the individual performing the exercise. If the movement is not performed in a fast, jerky manner, and the resistance is reasonable for the individual, it's unlikely they will be injured.
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dr ken

I'll agree with Drew and his stateemt that shear force alone is not necessarily the culprit. Specific to the reverse hyper machine, Louie sent one to our gym when he was first developing it and we had our lifters use it for a few weeks. Some liked it, some did not. I didn't care for it.

I thought the idea was fine and it certainly attempted to train an often neglected and difficult to isolate group of muscles but I did not feel the machine was "user friendly" enough to be effective or safe. Having used all of the Hip And Back machines, from the original plate loaded "basket" model through all of the non-adjustable, geared, Duo, and 2ST and Hammer incarnations, my choice would be a bi-lateral machine (Ell may remember some of our spirited conversations about the relative merits of what was then the "new" Duo Hip and Back as compared to the geared Super Hip And Back)that provides variable resistance and done in combination with a squatting movement.
Dr. Ken
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eintology

California, USA

dr ken wrote:
Some liked it, some did not. I didn't care for it.

I did not feel the machine was "user friendly" enough to be effective or safe. and Hammer incarnations, my choice would be a bi-lateral machine

Dr. Ken


This Louie Simmons model hyperextension unit has pretty much collected cobwebs at the gym I frequent. And there are something like 110 registered trainers in the gym. It's indicative that people don't really dig it, for the most part.

I think it's due to the reasons both yourself and Charles Coultier mentioned.

When I first saw it, I thought this would be a machine I would get some good use out of, but I get nauseated (not in a good way) every freakin time I've used it. I can't say this about anything else I've ever tried.

As Charles mentioned, I think it puts too much pressure on the abdomen, especially the lower abdomen, and there is really no good way to adjust for this.

Maybe those glute-ham units that are still higher off the ground, but have more of the rounded pad would be better for this reverse hperextension exercise?

Dr. Ken, may I ask your opinion of the Hammer Hip Extension?

I am not sure which bi-lateral Nautilus unit you are referring to. Was there more than one?

Thanks,

Erik

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saseme

Hammer strength make a nice hip/glute machine, plate loaded of course.
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jn6047

Charles Coulter wrote:
JN, I'd get your doctor's clearence prior to using any machine with a known herniated disc.


Not a problem there. In fact yesterday I trained back, and I'm pulling within 10lbs on my deadlift what I had done before the injury, with relatively minor discomfort. The injury was last occured in September/October of 2005.

jn6047
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marcrph

Portugal

Drew Baye wrote:
marcrph wrote:
Pg. 333, "Ultimate Back Fitness And Performance", Second Edition, by Dr.Stuart McGill PhD,

"The hip extension machine(reverse hyper) produces large posterior shear forces on the low back - this can create patients. It will create problems in some and should be considered with great caution. Cable pulls between the legs (BIO-FORCE mentioned this also) is an alternative that produces much more "physiological" loads on the spine."


The fact that shear forces occur during a particular exercise alone doesn't automatically make the exercise unsafe. It depends on the magnitude of those forces and the condition of the individual performing the exercise. If the movement is not performed in a fast, jerky manner, and the resistance is reasonable for the individual, it's unlikely they will be injured.


Unfortunately in the case of a patient with known back problems, the reverse hyperextension exercise should be approached with extreme caution. Optimal tissue health is all about appropiate loading. Some load is beneficial, but too much can lead to problems, as too little can lead to insufficient tissue adaptations. Acceptable levels of spine loading are generally around 2500 N. One legged Birddogs typically impose these levels. One-legged Birddog extensions while holding the contralateral arm out raise the spine loading to 3000 N. Abdominal bracing will enhance this exercise for acceptability.

Roman chair hyperextensions impose 4000 N loads. The Superman exercise loads the spine to about 6000 N, similiar to the reverse hyperextension, well above tolerable limits for those prone to back trouble or with history-related symptons.
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DSears

I've been experimenting with my duo poly hip and back and can provide a little feedback for any of you that own one. First, it is possible to use it like a single movement arm machine by merely locking the sprocket on the weight stack. You can drill a hole in the side of the sprocket holder, thread it and then put a bolt or set screw that you can tighten down to lock the sprocket.

Or, you could just drill a hole straight through the sprocket holder and the sprocket so you can use a pin. You'll need to make sure both movement arms are perfectly in line before doing that. I took a couple of links of chain out to make it a bit easier to get into and out of and it doesn't hurt the movement at all, it just takes some of the extreme stretch out.

Secondly, you can use simple u-bolts and a couple of 2x4's to attach to the movement arms to let a helper raise the weight for negatives and statics. If anyone's interested PM me and I'll see if I can get you some pictures. The only problem is that the stack on mine goes to 200 lbs and that's not enough for negatives.

Third, (this is a trick someone on the SS mailing list told me about) you can pin or chain down one of the movement arms in the fully extended position and place your leg UNDER the pad. Then, you exercise the other leg to failure and switch. The leg under the fully extended pad provides bracing and you hardly need the seat belt.

It feels really good and lets you focus on the working leg. I'm a little wary of unilateral movement so I've been concentrating on doing max contraction and negatives on mine.

I built my own hip and back years ago and did statics and heavy negatives and the effect on my jumping and sprinting was incredible.

David
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