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UFC 63
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Zenontheterrible

does anyone on this board watch UFC?

i was just wondering cause i just watched the Hughes vs. Penn fight (UC63) (and it was awesome) but i was thinking how much better Penn would be if he had someone to train him in strength like Dr.Darden. I mean the guys an amazing talent when it comes to anything to do with fighting, but he's also kinda pudgy and out of shape (not that i would tell him that to his face). I imagine he's given up training for strength because he's probably been put on 1 to many rediculous high volume sets. (he said in an interveiw that in the St.Peirre fight he felt over trained, and that the results weren't worth the effort)

just a thought.
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Cherry

I don't like these 'new' guys of last few years. It's now all about a street brawl and beating each others brains out in a slug fest. Much unlike the technical masters of yesteryear such as Royce Gracie who could 'finesse' 250 pounder into submission. then get up like he just took a sunday stroll in park. these newbies are just street brawls. lets see who can knocks out the most brain.. boringg
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Zenontheterrible

gracie is the man, but the truth is that the skill level keeps going up, and it becomes more unrealistic to finese someone who is stronger and in better shape than you, if they also have very similar skill and talent levels.

Gracie is a legend, but it only took matt hughes about a minute and a half to finish him off. Hughes was a more rounded fighter, and in better shape.

Like you though, i've always rooted for the skill guy over the big guys, thats why i like BJ Penn so much... he's like the new Gracie... but ultimately he lost to hughes as well...
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tylerg

What we are seeing now is the natural evolution of the sport. Royce did OK back in the day because no one had seen BJJ. Royce had amazing flexibility and made the move look easy, especially on guys who knew nothing about MMA.

Fast forward to 2006 and Royce against Hughes...a no brainer. Look at Hughes' conditioning compared to Royce looking anorexic. If you watched any of the previews of them training...totally different. As for the fight itself... Royce gave Hughes his back twice and paid for it the second time. Not much finesse there, though I was impressed how he survived that arm lock.

As for BJ Penn, I don't think it was strength that let him down but endurance. He had Hughes in the first two rounds then gassed out. He had to know it was going five rounds, whether it did or not, he should have been prepared for it.

Personally, I can't wait to the GSP and Hughes fight. That should be a good battle.

Tyler
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Drew Baye

Florida, USA

Cherry wrote:
I don't like these 'new' guys of last few years. It's now all about a street brawl and beating each others brains out in a slug fest. Much unlike the technical masters of yesteryear such as Royce Gracie who could 'finesse' 250 pounder into submission. then get up like he just took a sunday stroll in park. these newbies are just street brawls. lets see who can knocks out the most brain.. boringg


Holy crap, I'm in 100% agreement with Cherry on something.

Cherry, I recommend forgetting about the UFC and just watching thai boxing or ju jutsu competitions, or greco roman if you want to see a combination of technical skill and conditioning, rather than just a brawl.
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Growl

I liked the UFC more when they didn't have weight divisions. They had a UFC event titled David vs Goliath and the smaller guy almost always won. Funny as hell to watch a 600lb. sumo wrestler get the shit beat out of him by a guy at least 400lbs. lighter

Jeff
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Zenontheterrible

i think the thing that bothers me most about the current ufc is the style restrictions. because some moves are considered more dangerous than others by the atheltic commision they are banned. However banning moves also creates a false idea of what is actually usefull in a real self defence situation.

For example trying to crawl up someone's body and get a 'mount' isn't nearly as safe when the competitor isn't banned from delivering downward elbows, or strikes to the back of the head. just a thought. Similarly styles that excell in 1 on 1 fighting, such as BJJ and wrestling, can be extremely dangerous in real life situations.

For example once you go to the ground with someone its almost impossible to run away when his 10 drunk buddies show up. or if buddy is trying to mug you with a knife... trying to shoot for a leg is probably the worst idea in the world. that being said, i still find UFC extremly entertaining, and think if anything its MORE techincal than it used to be (because the skill of competitors isn't so mismatched or lopsided).

I've heard that japan has an tournament called bushido which is similar in rules (as in almost none) to the old school UFC, has anyone else seen or heard of this tournament?

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Cherry

Tito just beat Shamrock [again] and it dint take long :|
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Landau

Florida, USA

Just saw it and I am a Shamrock fan, but he is a bit too old. Tito will get destroyed by Liddell.
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SanSooMan

Having rolled on the mat with both Royce and Rorian Gracie I can say there Judo skills are world class. Any one who can beat hour in a SPORT fight like UFC must have talent. Royce, however, was never considered to be close to the best of the Gracies brothers. He has been easily beat by non-family members at his own game (Judo rules).

As far as real combat is concerned, Judo is one of the worst systems you can learn. Cops really need to know that, if they want to keep their gun and/or PR-24. The reason it is so bad:Central Nervous System.
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Cherry

SanSooMan wrote:
Having rolled on the mat with both Royce and Rorian Gracie I can say there Judo skills are world class. Any one who can beat hour in a SPORT fight like UFC must have talent. Royce, however, was never considered to be close to the best of the Gracies brothers. He has been easily beat by non-family members at his own game (Judo rules).

As far as real combat is concerned, Judo is one of the worst systems you can learn. Cops really need to know that, if they want to keep their gun and/or PR-24. The reason it is so bad:Central Nervous System.


Who easily whupped Royce?

Are the Gracie's grooming another to take his place?
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NEW_AT_HIT

There is a big difference
between BJJ and JUDO. BJJ
is takedown and mount and submit
on the ground. JUDO is concerned
with the throw and then some ground
work to submission.

If JUDO is not effective for
self defense, then Jujitsu is
not. Yawara is not. Taijitsu
is not. Aikido is not. And the list goes on.

Of course JUDO is a very effective
form of self defense. The techniques
are 1000's of years old perfected by
the Samurai! Techniques used in actual
combat.

Jigoro Cano formed JUDO from many
different forms of Jujitsu. And, he
came up with the name JUDO to destinguish JUDO from Jujitsu because he thought Jujitsu practitioners were
thugs because at the time they were
participating in no-holds barred
competition. Jigoro Kano was against
these types of activities.

The UFC gives true martial artists
a bad name. In many respects I
view the UFC as the steriods of martial
arts!

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deanjones

tylerg wrote:
What we are seeing now is the natural evolution of the sport. Royce did OK back in the day because no one had seen BJJ. Royce had amazing flexibility and made the move look easy, especially on guys who knew nothing about MMA.

Fast forward to 2006 and Royce against Hughes...a no brainer. Look at Hughes' conditioning compared to Royce looking anorexic. If you watched any of the previews of them training...totally different. As for the fight itself... Royce gave Hughes his back twice and paid for it the second time. Not much finesse there, though I was impressed how he survived that arm lock.

As for BJ Penn, I don't think it was strength that let him down but endurance. He had Hughes in the first two rounds then gassed out. He had to know it was going five rounds, whether it did or not, he should have been prepared for it.

Personally, I can't wait to the GSP and Hughes fight. That should be a good battle.

Tyler


Had nothing to do with endurance for BJ. He separated a rib when taking Matt's back in the 2nd. That's why he was covering his ribs the entire time in the 3rd and let Matt get side-mount and pound him in his face. He said "I'd rather have been punched in the face a lot than in the ribs at that moment."

BJ is a freakin warrior... To separate a rib and then still come out in the 3rd to fight... I mean, that's just toughness even though he didn't do well. I would have been SUPER impressed if he would have won. But having a separated rib and then coming out trying to throw down with Hughes... Takes heart.

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SanSooMan

Royce was easily beat by Waldamere Ismalia, a Gracie exponet and the All-Japan Judo Champ also put him to sleep in secs.
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deanjones

SanSooMan wrote:
Having rolled on the mat with both Royce and Rorian Gracie I can say there Judo skills are world class. Any one who can beat hour in a SPORT fight like UFC must have talent. Royce, however, was never considered to be close to the best of the Gracies brothers. He has been easily beat by non-family members at his own game (Judo rules).

As far as real combat is concerned, Judo is one of the worst systems you can learn. Cops really need to know that, if they want to keep their gun and/or PR-24. The reason it is so bad:Central Nervous System.


You rolled on the mat with some Gracie's and you can't even correctly name what martial art they're well known for?

Did Royce or Rorian slap you for saying "Nice Judo skills!" ?



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deanjones

Zenontheterrible wrote:
i think the thing that bothers me most about the current ufc is the style restrictions. because some moves are considered more dangerous than others by the atheltic commision they are banned. However banning moves also creates a false idea of what is actually usefull in a real self defence situation.

For example trying to crawl up someone's body and get a 'mount' isn't nearly as safe when the competitor isn't banned from delivering downward elbows, or strikes to the back of the head. just a thought. Similarly styles that excell in 1 on 1 fighting, such as BJJ and wrestling, can be extremely dangerous in real life situations.

For example once you go to the ground with someone its almost impossible to run away when his 10 drunk buddies show up. or if buddy is trying to mug you with a knife... trying to shoot for a leg is probably the worst idea in the world. that being said, i still find UFC extremly entertaining, and think if anything its MORE techincal than it used to be (because the skill of competitors isn't so mismatched or lopsided).

I've heard that japan has an tournament called bushido which is similar in rules (as in almost none) to the old school UFC, has anyone else seen or heard of this tournament?



BJJ was originally developed for real street fights. Hell, people in Brazil have been using JJ for YEARS in real street fights.

Honestly, if you have never trained in BJJ, you have no idea how it can be effective in a real street fight and how it can't. BJJ is absolutely, 100% useful in a real street fight. I've personally used it in real street fights. Are you always trying to get side control? No. Are you always trying to get in the guard of someone, no... But, let me tell you... 90% of the fights on the streets go to the ground and BJJ is absolutely the best way to defend yourself down there.

If you actually train BJJ, you will understand that. They don't teach you what you need to get into the octagon by any means. They teach you how to fight on the streets. UFC just made BJJ famous but it had been around for many, many years. Even still, watch the first few UFC tournaments. There are NO rules in those. Those are true fights. Kicks to the nuts, hair pulling, elbows to the head were all allowed and yet Royce beat every single person with straight BJJ.

Honestly... if you've never trained BJJ or haven't seen or used BJJ used in real life, don't make judgements on it. It's quite effective in real life.

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SanSooMan

The Gracies learned from a Master JUDO man, Count Koda who lived in South America at the time. So what they really learned was Judo. What they are good at however is Ne-Waza(ground work). Their "stand-up" Judo is not very good.

Sorry, but you are dead wrong if you think the systems you mentioned are effective with dealing with violence. They are not. Any system that is compartmentized and technique based is going to fail 30% of the time. That means you die 30% of the time!

Violence is random and must be met with principles and absolute aggression,(no defensive moves) for at best you will have 7 seconds to main, cripple or kill your attacker, or risk those three being done to you.
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SanSooMan

deanjones wrote:
SanSooMan wrote:
Having rolled on the mat with both Royce and Rorian Gracie I can say there Judo skills are world class. Any one who can beat hour in a SPORT fight like UFC must have talent. Royce, however, was never considered to be close to the best of the Gracies brothers. He has been easily beat by non-family members at his own game (Judo rules).

As far as real combat is concerned, Judo is one of the worst systems you can learn. Cops really need to know that, if they want to keep their gun and/or PR-24. The reason it is so bad:Central Nervous System.

You rolled on the mat with some Gracie's and you can't even correctly name what martial art they're well known for?

Did Royce or Rorian slap you for saying "Nice Judo skills!" ?

Rorian is a friend of mine, I've trained his three sons in HIT. They are great human beings. I competed in Judo at 1st Dan level for 5 years and then found San Soo(SCARS). BBJ is in the Dark Ages compaired to San Soo or Petterson's SCARS . FYI, all Judo means is the "Ultimate reality of Jujitsu". Look it up.



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Cherry

SanSooMan wrote:
deanjones wrote:
SanSooMan wrote:
Having rolled on the mat with both Royce and Rorian Gracie I can say there Judo skills are world class. Any one who can beat hour in a SPORT fight like UFC must have talent. Royce, however, was never considered to be close to the best of the Gracies brothers. He has been easily beat by non-family members at his own game (Judo rules).

As far as real combat is concerned, Judo is one of the worst systems you can learn. Cops really need to know that, if they want to keep their gun and/or PR-24. The reason it is so bad:Central Nervous System.

You rolled on the mat with some Gracie's and you can't even correctly name what martial art they're well known for?

Did Royce or Rorian slap you for saying "Nice Judo skills!" ?

Rorian is a friend of mine, I've trained his three sons in HIT. They are great human beings. I competed in Judo at 1st Dan level for 5 years and then found San Soo(SCARS). BBJ is in the Dark Ages compaired to San Soo or Petterson's SCARS . FYI, all Judo means is the "Ultimate reality of Jujitsu". Look it up.





why don't you see a San Soo fighter in the UFC?
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SanSooMan




BJJ was originally developed for real street fights. Hell, people in Brazil have been using JJ for YEARS in real street fights.

Honestly, if you have never trained in BJJ, you have no idea how it can be effective in a real street fight and how it can't. BJJ is absolutely, 100% useful in a real street fight. I've personally used it in real street fights. Are you always trying to get side control? No. Are you always trying to get in the guard of someone, no... But, let me tell you... 90% of the fights on the streets go to the ground and BJJ is absolutely the best way to defend yourself down there.

If you actually train BJJ, you will understand that. They don't teach you what you need to get into the octagon by any means. They teach you how to fight on the streets. UFC just made BJJ famous but it had been around for many, many years. Even still, watch the first few UFC tournaments. There are NO rules in those. Those are true fights. Kicks to the nuts, hair pulling, elbows to the head were all allowed and yet Royce beat every single person with straight BJJ.

Honestly... if you've never trained BJJ or haven't seen or used BJJ used in real life, don't make judgements on it. It's quite effective in real life.

I have not only trained in BJJ but was dismissed from a site for using REAL violence there. The guy turned out to be the Capt. of the San Diego SWAT Team and didn't take to kindly to me "poken his eyes in his head" or "breaking his neck". That is what really happens when you go to the ground against somone who uses violence as a tool. FYI, 99%of fights may go to the ground, but 100% start standing up.
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NEW_AT_HIT

The literal meaning of Judo is the Way of Softness. The kanji character for 'ju' is taken from a Chinese military saying that 'softness defeats hardness'. (http://www.japan-zone.com/omnibus/martial.shtml)

5 whole years competing as 1st Dan
in Judo?

I respect that you competed for 5 years but it takes many years to master JUDO. Maybe, you did not give it enough time.

I do not wish to argue with you and I respect what you are saying. But, I do not agree with you.

You are from a hard-style perspective and I like the soft side of things. They both can be effective.

I hope that we never have to mane, kill or use any kind of violence or self defense on anyone.

--- Charlie
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davise

Most judokas are not aware that original judo included atemi waza (striking techniques) before it became more of a sport.
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SanSooMan

NEW_AT_HIT wrote:
The literal meaning of Judo is the Way of Softness. The kanji character for 'ju' is taken from a Chinese military saying that 'softness defeats hardness'. (http://www.japan-zone.com/omnibus/martial.shtml)

5 whole years competing as 1st Dan
in Judo?

I respect that you competed for 5 years but it takes many years to master JUDO. Maybe, you did not give it enough time.

I do not wish to argue with you and I respect what you are saying. But, I do not agree with you.

You are from a hard-style perspective and I like the soft side of things. They both can be effective.

I hope that we never have to mane, kill or use any kind of violence or self defense on anyone.

Thank you for the kind words. As a Greek Orthodox Christian, I would never want to use violence either. But I know how, and I know how not to let it happen to me. That is point I am trying to make, if there is a point.
I remember in one Aikio class one of the senior guys pulling me aside and saying"That was how we teach it in class, but this is how it is done on the street." I remember thinking, What the F am I wasting my money on this stuff if it is going a toe tag in the street!
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SanSooMan







why don't you see a San Soo fighter in the UFC? [/quote]

You did, a big, fat boy named John Huess in one of the first UFCs. He beat the crap of of his 7th degree black belt and bouncer opponet. John was only a student at the time. He did "cheat" by UFC rules by racking the in the eyes.
It was Aikido founder Uyeshiba Morihei who said, "Aikido is 99% hitting".
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deanjones

SanSooMan wrote:
I have not only trained in BJJ but was dismissed from a site for using REAL violence there. The guy turned out to be the Capt. of the San Diego SWAT Team and didn't take to kindly to me "poken his eyes in his head" or "breaking his neck". That is what really happens when you go to the ground against somone who uses violence as a tool. FYI, 99%of fights may go to the ground, but 100% start standing up.


But that's why just learning only one style is not effective and why Bruce Lee made "Jeet Kune Do". Each style has its own limitations. Each style brought together works in illiminating those limitations.

In almost every fight I have been in, I have been tackled and the fight has been brought to the ground immediately or after just a few punches. While BJJ isn't the end-all-say-all of fighting, it is rather effective and actually teaches you how to guard against things like eye gouging, biting, elbows to the head, etc...

The things listed above are indeed brought together in real street fights. I too will gouge eye's, kick nuts, and pull hair in a street fight. I'm not there to show off my skills, I'm there to survive. However, when tackled by a larger man and brought to the ground, BJJ and Wrestling have been priceless in my experience.

I think we agree somewhat here... However, all I'm saying is that BJJ is absolutely useful and works in street fights. Especially against morons that are trying to beat you by their size and power. They realize standing up and trading punches isn't working, so they charge at you. If you know how to fall, sprawl and manipulate their energy, you can quite literally get the upper hand very quickly in this situation and stop the fight before anyone gets hurt.

For example, I know a guy that got into a bar fight a couple of years back. The lady bartender was cutting this big guy off because he was acting ridiculous. He started threatening the bar tender. This guy stepped up and told him to respect the bar tender and leave the bar. Of course, the bigger guy thought this was funny and started becoming aggressive towards that guy. Within seconds, the drunk moron charged at him and he saw it coming. He was taken to the ground, but since he knew how to fall and take advantage of that situation, he fell properly, didn't hurt himself, was able to grab the mans collar on his shirt and pull it across his neck and choke him out fairly quickly since he was drunk. All while on his back. Nobody was hurt, the large drunk man was arrested and the man that was attacked went home. Pure BJJ in action! If BJJ was not known by that guy, he would have been tackled, probably mounted by the bigger man and pumbled to death or near death until someone pulled the big guy off of him.

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