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HamsFitness

This is mainly for Dr Darden and other "old school" HIT trainers;

I have been reading about the successes of various training camps and the achievments some of their trainees have made over the years with said camp's methods.

Now this sort of success, coupled with strong voices leads the general training public to believe that the camp's methods are very superior and yield huge results from strength to size to fitness etc etc.

This leads people to trust what is stated by that camp and when said camp produces articles that point out how they feel that the likes of HIT, Arthur Jones, yourself and other HIT advocates are mistaken, ignorant and have since revoked HIT as ineffective -people believe it and start to turn away from HIT.

My query is this;

If HIT is as potent a stimulus as we believe, then how about having some of the HIT crowd trained and entered into worldwide competitions and start globally voicing the greatness of HIT.

Where, after 30 years or so, are the worlds strongest men?faster sprinters?Highest jumpers?Biggest body builders, martial artists, footballers, rugby players etc etc?

Surely after HIT being around for so long there would be some massive known mainstream atheletes about to promote its genuis? If there are then let me know please as I do not really follow sports that broadly.

Please, this is not an attack, as I have been traiing various HIT methods for a few years now and while I havent seen the gains some speak of, I am able to maintain a great level of fitness in an astoundingly short training time per week.
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Tom Traynor

About ten years ago, I attended a Charles Poliquin seminar where he talked about a Canadian woman's sports team who would shame many guys training alongside them by doing ten bodyweight chins--or more.

At the time, I was astounded--this great trainer had women doing 10 chins! Of course, he had the advantage of genetic selection--they started out with him as national--if not world, caliber athletes.

As of today, I have five women clients who can do 10 or more--one is 62 years old! The top cat, my business partner/trainer, can do 19--including 3-4 single finger chins (first try, after Dr. Darden's mention of this).

Drew Baye had the opportunity to train her recently (and I would campaign her as THE role model for women's HIT training...maybe in your next book Dr. Darden?). Several more are in the 6-8 range. We didn't do any Pavel ladders or mystical workouts. A set or two 1-2 week going all-out, Nautilus pullover and Medx row did the trick.

Of course it is no "trick"....It is just my definition of HIT training: Do as much as you can, pretty much as hard as you can--or very close--for 25-30 minutes. Then be done. Next!...After all, I've got to share the benefit of HIT training with another 15-20 clients TODAY!

I like chins as a general upper body strength standard.
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Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

"I am able to maintain a great level of fitness in an astoundingly short training time per week."

And right there is where HIT--or a modified version of it--would appeal to the masses.
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karma50

Bill,
Dead on.
That's why the older, boomer crowd is the target group in my opinion. They are, as a group, smart enough to know they can't look like a bodybuilder or movie star, but they want to remain strong and functional, without a lot of complicated routines and high frequency workouts.

A lot of older folks I know do not believe you can get fit in an hour or less a week, but they are open to the idea if they see a trainer who is doing just that.

Once again, I think Werner Kieser has it right. In and out, but challenging enough so they know the've had a workout.
Regards,
Griff
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saseme

It's all about advertising and salesmanship, and HIT ain't got it. Maybe Mentzer, but he is no longer.

There's no one out there selling it in that way. People don't want real hard work, and being that the people you're talking about are genetic elites, they don't need to work that hard, and so won't.

It's why HIT has never attained the popularity of other methods, because amongst the genetically average masses they can work really hard with HIT or not so hard with something else and get the same results.

This being the case, HIT is less about results as it is what appeals to your psychology. Some people love the all out exertion of HIT, others, most others loathe it.

If people are really interested in others wellfare, they'd do well to simply encourage activity and steer away from arguments about this being superior to that. Get with someone, find out what appeals to them, what they'll stick to doing and encourage them in it.
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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

HIT has never gained high amounts of 'star' status because most of those who promote it, construe it far too narrowly.

Regards,
Andrew
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summaHIT

Ontario, CAN

HIT should appeal to the average person since they are getting zero results anyhow and HIT routines could help them focus on training hard rather than completing a certain amount of sets. However, when you are talking about people wanting to get better than average results this is where it gets ugly.

It is not even debatable that if you want to get really strong, HIT is not as effective as using low reps for multiple sets. For most athletes this is their goal for weight training. Unfortunately for bodybuilding, there has only been a few successful HITers like Mentzer and Viator.

These guys were genetic mutants who would have succeded regardless. However, Viator obviously did need to be trained by someone (Jones)as per the articles I have read but he was still successful before he met Jones.

I am not an HIT hater at all. I have trained most of my training life with HIT but besides all the 20 and 30 year old success stories where is the proof that HIT is better than other training approaches. There is no question it is effective but I am talking about being better. Please don't boo me off the site.
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Paul Marsland

saseme wrote:
It's all about advertising and salesmanship, and HIT ain't got it. Maybe Mentzer, but he is no longer.

There's no one out there selling it in that way. People don't want real hard work, and being that the people you're talking about are genetic elites, they don't need to work that hard, and so won't.

It's why HIT has never attained the popularity of other methods, because amongst the genetically average masses they can work really hard with HIT or not so hard with something else and get the same results.

This being the case, HIT is less about results as it is what appeals to your psychology. Some people love the all out exertion of HIT, others, most others loathe it.

If people are really interested in others wellfare, they'd do well to simply encourage activity and steer away from arguments about this being superior to that. Get with someone, find out what appeals to them, what they'll stick to doing and encourage them in it.



Much as saseme has been prone to posts that are pure trollng, the above post is spot on the money. I have to agree with him 100%.



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marcrph

Portugal

I'll guarantee you one thing!
Let the National Champion in basketball, football, or the NFL, credit HIT with some of their success on National TV.

With proper motor learning, strength training, strategy, and TALENT above all, interest in HIT might skyrocket. You guys running HIT facilities would have people begging for memberships.
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HamsFitness

marcrph wrote:
I'll guarantee you one thing!
Let the National Champion in basketball, football, or the NFL, credit HIT with some of their success on National TV.

With proper motor learning, strength training, strategy, and TALENT above all, interest in HIT might skyrocket. You guys running HIT facilities would have people begging for memberships.


Thats just my point,

Professional athletes are not shy of hard work - they didnt get to be the best by being afraid to work hard -especially physically hard, if you think a pro is only a pro due to genetics then you have never trained around pros.

That being so, and HIT being so hard and effective, then why havent the professionals (in any sport) picked it up and used it, it sure as hell isnt fear of physical challenge.

After 30 years it would make sense that somehting so great (look at the tabata protocol, or velcro, or barbells) would have been embrached despite the fact it is hard.

Hell weight training with 3 rep maxes is tough but people dont run a mile from it.

exercise is tough.

What is wrong with HIT.

If nothing then why doesnt someone take it mainstream, people talk about this athlete and that team - train them and let them tell the world about it!

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saseme

Wizard wrote:
marcrph wrote:
I'll guarantee you one thing!
Let the National Champion in basketball, football, or the NFL, credit HIT with some of their success on National TV.

With proper motor learning, strength training, strategy, and TALENT above all, interest in HIT might skyrocket. You guys running HIT facilities would have people begging for memberships.

Thats just my point,

Professional athletes are not shy of hard work - they didnt get to be the best by being afraid to work hard -especially physically hard, if you think a pro is only a pro due to genetics then you have never trained around pros.

That being so, and HIT being so hard and effective, then why havent the professionals (in any sport) picked it up and used it, it sure as hell isnt fear of physical challenge.

After 30 years it would make sense that somehting so great (look at the tabata protocol, or velcro, or barbells) would have been embrached despite the fact it is hard.

Hell weight training with 3 rep maxes is tough but people dont run a mile from it.

exercise is tough.

What is wrong with HIT.

If nothing then why doesnt someone take it mainstream, people talk about this athlete and that team - train them and let them tell the world about it!



Don't kid yourself, pro athletes are the laziest of the bunch because of their favorable genetics. The hard work you talk of is hard, if it can be called that, aerobic work, except in the case of olympic or powerlifters, who in most cases don't have a physique anyone cares for.

If you were to advertise in that fashion it would be flat out fraudulent. You'd be telling the world that if they train HIT they could look like, say, Karl Malone, and it's not true. If you're out just to make a sleazy buck, go ahead. Plenty of NBA players lift, and probably lots juice, but not many have the build of Karl Malone, because they don't have his genetics.

Bottom line is participation, in any physical activity, and to get that to happen consistently you need the person to enjoy it. Arthur Jones saying exercise is work and not play and you shouldn't like it has no doubt done great damage to HIT and to exercise as a whole. Everything in life is to be enjoyed, unless you're a sadist.

The proponents of HIT's all or nothing approach will never change. It's leopard spots, and for that reason it'll never gain any much more popularity than it ever has. Even at its height comparing it's popularity higher valoume weight training or aerobics is pointless, it just didn't compete. With all of the Nautilus machinery out there over all of the decades what percent of it do you think was used as it would have been?
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saseme

Paul Marsland wrote:
saseme wrote:
It's all about advertising and salesmanship, and HIT ain't got it. Maybe Mentzer, but he is no longer.

There's no one out there selling it in that way. People don't want real hard work, and being that the people you're talking about are genetic elites, they don't need to work that hard, and so won't.

It's why HIT has never attained the popularity of other methods, because amongst the genetically average masses they can work really hard with HIT or not so hard with something else and get the same results.

This being the case, HIT is less about results as it is what appeals to your psychology. Some people love the all out exertion of HIT, others, most others loathe it.

If people are really interested in others wellfare, they'd do well to simply encourage activity and steer away from arguments about this being superior to that. Get with someone, find out what appeals to them, what they'll stick to doing and encourage them in it.


Much as saseme has been prone to posts that are pure trollng, the above post is spot on the money. I have to agree with him 100%.





Better take that back Paul, Andrew and Brian are watching. Could get you black booked.
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Tom Traynor

Training doesn't have to be "enjoyable"--it has to be rewarding. You are rewarded immediately by knowing you did your BEST, set a PR, or over time by the physical meamorphasis taking place. Do you go to your job each day thinking "oh, goody! To church? Brush your teeth? Mow the lawn?

I love being a trainer but NOT all the time...It is rewarding to me to see clients break through, do thier best and improve--as it should be for them. Sometimes this has to be explained to them...Great America sells "fun" but would it really be if you HAD to go 2-3 times a week every week? "Fun" doesn't last.
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marcrph

Portugal

If younger, I would sure like to coach a football team and use Nautilus metabolic conditioning, proper motor learning, no huddle offense, zone blocking, etc. and average about 100 points per game.
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Paul Marsland

saseme wrote:
Paul Marsland wrote:
saseme wrote:
It's all about advertising and salesmanship, and HIT ain't got it. Maybe Mentzer, but he is no longer.

There's no one out there selling it in that way. People don't want real hard work, and being that the people you're talking about are genetic elites, they don't need to work that hard, and so won't.

It's why HIT has never attained the popularity of other methods, because amongst the genetically average masses they can work really hard with HIT or not so hard with something else and get the same results.

This being the case, HIT is less about results as it is what appeals to your psychology. Some people love the all out exertion of HIT, others, most others loathe it.

If people are really interested in others wellfare, they'd do well to simply encourage activity and steer away from arguments about this being superior to that. Get with someone, find out what appeals to them, what they'll stick to doing and encourage them in it.


Much as saseme has been prone to posts that are pure trollng, the above post is spot on the money. I have to agree with him 100%.





Better take that back Paul, Andrew and Brian are watching. Could get you black booked.



No need to take it back, your post was well thought out and intelligent, and your observation was spot on. If Brian and Andrew or anyone else disagrees then so be it..

Paul.

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Law&Order

Wizard wrote:
Professional athletes are not shy of hard work - they didnt get to be the best by being afraid to work hard -especially physically hard, if you think a pro is only a pro due to genetics then you have never trained around pros.

That being so, and HIT being so hard and effective, then why havent the professionals (in any sport) picked it up and used it, it sure as hell isnt fear of physical challenge.

After 30 years it would make sense that somehting so great (look at the tabata protocol, or velcro, or barbells) would have been embrached despite the fact it is hard.

Hell weight training with 3 rep maxes is tough but people dont run a mile from it.

exercise is tough.

What is wrong with HIT.

If nothing then why doesnt someone take it mainstream, people talk about this athlete and that team - train them and let them tell the world about it!


You will never see it!

Some will try convince you otherwise,but these same people have their head so far up their own *** they can't see the wood through the trees - it's all business talk.No business,no profits.Simple.


With regard to average Joe; HIT methods will produce results,even for those with hectic schedules,but there are also alternative methods of weight training - never be inhibited by another persons warped perception.


To be the best,comes hard work....and alot of it.


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saseme

Tom Traynor wrote:
Training doesn't have to be "enjoyable"--it has to be rewarding. You are rewarded immediately by knowing you did your BEST, set a PR, or over time by the physical meamorphasis taking place. Do you go to your job each day thinking "oh, goody! To church? Brush your teeth? Mow the lawn?

I love being a trainer but NOT all the time...It is rewarding to me to see clients break through, do thier best and improve--as it should be for them. Sometimes this has to be explained to them...Great America sells "fun" but would it really be if you HAD to go 2-3 times a week every week? "Fun" doesn't last.


Most analogies don't bear close examination, and niether do yours. There isn't quite the same level of exertion brushing teeth as doing HIT. Things that are less exertive obviously need to be less enjoyable for us to agree to do them consistently. The harder a thing is, the more one needs to enjoy it.

Is there a dichotomy between reward and enjoyment? There certainly isn;t for me. Anything I feel rewarded for doing I enjoyed.

Fun will last if you do what you enjoy. Stop scaring the hell out of people because they enjoy running, or doing yoga or whatever. HIT is not the be all and end all of physical activity.
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saseme

Law&Order wrote:
Wizard wrote:
Professional athletes are not shy of hard work - they didnt get to be the best by being afraid to work hard -especially physically hard, if you think a pro is only a pro due to genetics then you have never trained around pros.

That being so, and HIT being so hard and effective, then why havent the professionals (in any sport) picked it up and used it, it sure as hell isnt fear of physical challenge.

After 30 years it would make sense that somehting so great (look at the tabata protocol, or velcro, or barbells) would have been embrached despite the fact it is hard.

Hell weight training with 3 rep maxes is tough but people dont run a mile from it.

exercise is tough.

What is wrong with HIT.

If nothing then why doesnt someone take it mainstream, people talk about this athlete and that team - train them and let them tell the world about it!


You will never see it!

Some will try convince you otherwise,but these same people have their head so far up their own *** they can't see the wood through the trees - it's all business talk.No business,no profits.Simple.


With regard to average Joe; HIT methods will produce results,even for those with hectic schedules,but there are also alternative methods of weight training - never be inhibited by another persons warped perception.


To be the best,comes hard work....and alot of it.




Do you really believe todays pro athletes would be any better for having trained HIT? Come on. This arogance and naivet? is why HIT will never get any further. Great athletes are born, not made. They will do well off of whtever they do.

History is on my side of this argument. Decades and even centuries of amazing physical performance, and none of these people training HIT, except for a few steroid taking bodybuilders who were already well built to start with because of their genetics and the gear.

Encourage people to engage in the physical activites they enjoy. They'll stick with them and be better off for it. Make them feel guilty about enjoying anything other than HIT, and then also telling them not to enjoy that is a sure fire way to get them to do nothing.
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jn6047

Chicago Blackhawks hockey player Rene Bourque works out at my gym when he comes home to Alberta to visit family. He is far from being lazy, or as most would see, genetically suited for weight lifting.

But, he trains damn hard, with a fair amount of volume, and has some pretty impressive lifts for a guy who stands about 5'11 and weighs a slight 180. So, I disagree that HIT is the be all end all, and that all profesional athletes are lazy or just strictly genetically suited for physical activity.

Regardless, variations of HIT training work for me. Will they work for the next guy, probably, maybe not with the same results, maybe worse, maybe better. It's a matter of exercise tolerance.

Its like medicine in a way, some people given the same does of medication will have different outcomes. As well, sometimes people build up resistance to the medication, and require a larger does to received the same effect.

Will someone else thrive from more volume, more frequency, and dare I say, equivalent intensity? Yes, someone will. Does this make what I'm doing wrong? No, as the results have been good and other ways of training (ie: increases in volume and frequency) have not worked as well.

jn6047
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tc16

Also its just not that impressive and people just dont believe you can do it with training that infrequently, if you wanted to impress someone and you said i do 20mins 2/3 times a week or someone who goes i train 6 times a week or everyday, who do you think people believe to be the more fitter?

Daniel Craig is a prime example:- when asked how he got in such good condition his reply was that he was in the gym 5 times a week, i bet he said that regardless of how he trained really.
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Tom Traynor

Well, I have several clients for 12-13 years, many at 6-7 years and more business (60-80 sessions/wk @ $37/session--you do the math...) per week than I need. They are hanging around for some reason...and they all kid each other as they arrive/leave for sessions on the "brutality" of it all. They ARE proud of themselves that they can do this. Many have said this the only exercise program that delivered what "exercise" is supposed to and that they stuck with.

How is this different than football practice? Where is the fun in football (or plug in any sport here) practice?

Bottom line: I am making LOOT, they are kicking ASS. Go ahead and have your opinion. I am LOVING my HIT reality.
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Tom Traynor

To add to the above: Sesame--do you OWN Darden's book? Yes or No? Read chapter 17--Kieser. It CAN be successfully marketed and implemented.

Last thought: If I told my clients: "Here's the NEW deal: For the SAME dollar investment per week, you can/must now train with me five days a week for 1-1.5 hours/session for about the same outcome." I would LOSE ALL of them and be out of business. As i tell them after a session: "Now get outta here and go make some money so I can get paid!" They love/hate me.

As the the designated site troll, you will come up with something, I'm sure...But I gotta go--have 23 clients today....:)--THAT'S the reality. F your opinions.



Gotta go....23 clients today
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Madcow2

The perception that all gifted athletes are lazy and do well simply because they are gifted is rediculous. The idea that they would not do something yeilding better or equal results in far less time is also ludicrous - there is a lot at stake here and plenty of motivation at all levels personal, team, fans and institution. At the top levels everyone is "gifted", just ask 99% of the high school football players who snagged D1 scholarships and had to bust their ass to play at that level. The same is true going to the Pros - you are at another whole level of "gifted" and they work their ass off. Just look at how the style of play changes through the ranks as the players become more and more uniformly "highly gifted", the option disappears, highly vertical football gives way to time and field position management.

Anyway, that's a crock. Lots of highly competitive guys with a winner's spirit are able and totally willing to summon a hurculean effort for 40 seconds to get out of hours of drudgery. If there is anything common in the human race, most would prefer a brief period of hard work to a long time consuming process. Most people are abysmal at long term focus, planning and the discipline required to execute a plan over lengthy periods.

For the record, I think HIT has certainly had success and implementation in collegiate and Pro football over the years. A lot of big programs have used it and given that football doesn't require a high degree of specificity in weight training and has a ton of other inputs to success aside from pure strength/power - it can be successful here and some would argue on time/efficiency supperior. And honestly, if it can be good enough at the D1 or Pro levels in a sport where strength is an important factor (i.e. every team has S&C), it can be good enough for Joe Schmoe and his reasonable goals at 24 hour fitness. So there's the marketing angle, and I think it's been used before - maybe not well.

That said the reason athletes use weight training is to develop power and strength to be applied in the sport. Meaning, more is better but how much time can be optimally devoted with other sport specific demands can be an issue. Where you see strength and power development at it's unconstrained peak (meaning it is the core goal/endevour or very very close so it is priority 1 or 2) would be weightlifting (olympic) and powerlifting, although throwing places a lot of emphasis on it too. Now granted people may quote a lot of studies about how HIT can adequately train peak strength and power - but honestly, I don't know of anyone who has successfully used it in these venues at any time over the past 30 years. So top 100, any weightclass, at any time - there are no HIT or Nautilus trained olympic or powerlifters. Yes, the Top 100 are obviously gifted but so is everyone else on that list and for the record these guys work brutally hard and put a lot of time in with the bar. Any would relish shrinking their training committment down to 1 hour total a week but not a single one has ever managed that (and let's face it here - linear progression, minimize workload to base requirement, work hard - this ain't real complicated to where it's a novel idea that no one ever thought of).

So honestly, making the claim that HIT is best for strength or power is in my opinion an impossible road unless someone starts producing national and world level athletes in the venues where those attributes are most specifically tested (and I would not hold my breath). Where they'd want to market would be in time efficiency and good enough. Although it seems people that put in the least time want to believe the time they put in is harder and thereby highest quality, that also won't sell to the masses too well and it's going to be very hard to support that qualitative preceived effort is important over quantitative work done and progression.

What people want is something that is "reasonably doable" on the effort scale, as low a time and frequency commitment as possible, and reasonably result producing. I think HIT can fit that mold. The core question would be - even though that sweet spot is hugely profitable, very deep in numbers and could benefit greatly, does HIT want to fit that mold as that breaks from the old molds of best, most scientific, hardest, most commited, most efficient, result producting etc....Plus, you'd also have to really define HIT as too much variance and flavors exist right now.

EDIT - and for the record these are just my opinions about where and how I feel HIT could be best marketed and applied by the general populace. While I don't think HIT is best for all purposes at all times at all levels, I think it has a clear plan of progression and reasonable parameters which puts it far ahead of what most people in commercial gyms are doing.
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Law&Order

saseme wrote:
The harder a thing is, the more one needs to enjoy it.


I'm not sure i'd use the word enjoy.All elite sportspersons are highly motivated and somewhat obsessive,a requirement for success - i've yet to meet a person of success whom is not somewhat obsessive.

saseme wrote:
Do you really believe todays pro athletes would be any better for having trained HIT? Come on.


Did i state otherwise? I think not.

saseme wrote:
This arogance and naivet? is why HIT will never get any further.


The reason HIT won't get any further in the world of sport is because it is first and foremost a bodybuilding protocol.

saseme wrote:
Great athletes are born, not made. They will do well off of whtever they do.


You trivialise the matter as if to suggest elite athletes just eat,sleep and *hit - Utter Nonsense.

A successful sportsperson must train extremely hard to remain at the top.Period.These men/women compete against others of similar qualities,not some half-*ssed,weekend warrir.

Re-read what i stated.

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Michael Petrella

Ontario, CAN

If anyone wants to see what has happened to HIT go over to the T-Nation boared and look at Dr. Dardens bigger biceps and triceps thread.
The simple point of it was most people are overtraining.

If your not familiar with the story it was AJ saying he could put 1/2inch on anyones upper arm in a week I think it was. The big secret was he just made them sleep and not train for a couple days. Everyone experienced growth just from this. ofcourse he would then show them proper training on Nautilus machines but the whole thing was just common sense.

The lifters on the T-Nation boared are panning it as a gimek. Saying that everyone should have 20inch arms if this were true and even showing picturs of Arnold and saying he looks overtrained with sarcasim.

So what do we do? What can we do? I plan on using HIT to maximize everything I can in my athletics. I play hockey and I have an open challenge to anyone I come into contact with to put there speed up against mine on skates. I have not been beaten and I am rarely challegned now.

What is my secret? Training my ass muscles on a Nautilus Dup-hip and back machine. Imagine a world where almost all males train all there body parts directly except the glute muscles( the most important ones for any sport where explosive power is needed in the legs) because any machine for them is now considered something for girls, Oh wait that is the way it is.

Before people rip on me, yes Im aware that squats, lunges, leg presses, etc, work the these muscles, 3 weeks on the hip and back machine did more for me then atleast 6 months of doing any other exercise for these muscles.

2. I will help those who come to me and ask for it. Only those who have an open mind will make the most out of it anyways. Yes I have switched some people to more rational training through arguments but those people in most cases still don't get results like people who come to me with an open mind and want to learn something.

My last point is we need to focus on the good things. Im aware that we are the tiny minority of weight trainers out there, but before I found this form I thought I was mostly alone in what I knew.

Granted there may be as little as a few hundred people left who really know this training, if that. And not so many trainee's atleast in North America (haven't read much on this Keiser fellow yet). On this site though we can get very diverse and very intelligent opinions on all this.

We should focus are attention on helping anyone on this boared who is coming here and asking for help instead of looking to others outside of it and trying to show them. Maybe one day we will have created enough examples of greatness to take HIT to the masses and not just have a couple mentzers and viators.
These are my opinions though.

Michael
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