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Determine the Length of Your Workouts

Evaluate Your Progress

Keep Warm-Up in Perspective


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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

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Welshace13

hi guys. i bought HIT the mike mentzer way the other day and i was lookin at the routine on it. basicly i was looking at the chest and back workout and i sore that you would not hit the upper body muscles again for atleast 2 weeks after doing workout 1. same with legs, 2 weeks rest before you hit them again if you used the 7 days off. so i was wondering of using this kind of approach in my training but instead of using mentzers excersises i would have:
workout 1
weighted dips
mil press
pull ups

then 7 days rest
workout 2
squats
deads

then 7 days rest then repeat workout 1 and so forth.

i would like your guys views on this.
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HrothgarRannulfr

Ohio, USA

How many sets of each exercise? Just 1? Or more?

How do you know if you're ready to only workout once every seven days?
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

If you insist on going that infrequently, I would mix the lower and upper body up in each session:

workout 1
squats
mil press
pull ups

workout 2
deads
weighted dips
One more exercise: Torso Arm (reverse pec deck), Incline Press, upright rows/high pulls, Calves

Few are the bodybuilders that can really make anything other than functional (and exercise-specific) strength gains by hitting bodyparts every 14+ days. This way you should stimulate all muscles --- at least a little --- every 7 days.

JMO.
Scott
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davise

Dont do it! As much as I liked Mike Mentzer, I think this would not work for the average to better than average guy. I tried it for about 4 months...got weaker and weaker looking and couldn't make it up a flight of stairs without needing a breather. Does anyone really take his consolidation routine seriously anymore?
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Welshace13

davise wrote:
Dont do it! As much as I liked Mike Mentzer, I think this would not work for the average to better than average guy. I tried it for about 4 months...got weaker and weaker looking and couldn't make it up a flight of stairs without needing a breather. Does anyone really take his consolidation routine seriously anymore?


thanks guys. to be honest ive found less excersise work better for me. like ive been going to the gym once every 7-9 days over the last 2 months and ive probably gained strength quicker than ever. ive got my deadlift up 22.5kg, military press up 10kg, dips up 12.5, pull ups up 5kg, and squat up 12.5 kg.

better than any rippetoe program or any other ive tried and i feel fuly refreshed each time i train. training less frequently in my opinion has seen me gain the quickest since i was a beginner

scott when u say functional strength what do u meen by this?(sorry for sounding thick)

also my main goals are strength more than size.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Welshace13 wrote:
scott when u say functional strength what do u meen by this?(sorry for sounding thick)

also my main goals are strength more than size.


I'm not sure if I was even using the right term, so no problem.

What I mean is that you will mainly gain strength on those specific exercises. Even more correctly, I should indicate that you will mainly only improve performance on those exercises --- your weights will go up not only due to the strength of the muscles, but also improved leverage and body positioning.

WARNING: Working in the same groove ALL the time is a sure-fire way to develop tendonitis issues.

At the very least, vary the exercises each workout --- military press one workout, then alternate with DB presses, behind-the-neck, and/or machine press.

Alternate squats with leg press, hack squats, lunges, etc --- you get the point.

In addition, you may consider varying your rep schemes, TUL, and/or cadence in an effort to delay hitting a plateau or wall on your poundage gains.

Good Luck,
Scott
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hdlifter

Late 90's, when Mike linked me and Dave Staplin up in an effort to get me to switch to his consolidation routine, I did great! Problem was, as I love to train, it was agony waiting a week between workouts. So bad in fact that I felt like I'd "given up training" working out so little.

At the same time I was interacting with one of Mike's biggest clients, 275# Aubrey Francis, who was still progressing using 2 sets every 10 days. It was a tough call, yet despite my gains I resumed my twice-weekly workouts again.

My records show I gained quite well training that style, as I did -- my best gains yet -- on once weekly MCT workouts. But as I said, I'd rather do less spread out over a week, like David Sears does, than a bit more once every 7-10 days or more. All the best!
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BloodandGuts

Welshace13 wrote:
davise wrote:
Dont do it! As much as I liked Mike Mentzer, I think this would not work for the average to better than average guy. I tried it for about 4 months...got weaker and weaker looking and couldn't make it up a flight of stairs without needing a breather. Does anyone really take his consolidation routine seriously anymore?

thanks guys. to be honest ive found less excersise work better for me. like ive been going to the gym once every 7-9 days over the last 2 months and ive probably gained strength quicker than ever. ive got my deadlift up 22.5kg, military press up 10kg, dips up 12.5, pull ups up 5kg, and squat up 12.5 kg.

better than any rippetoe program or any other ive tried and i feel fuly refreshed each time i train. training less frequently in my opinion has seen me gain the quickest since i was a beginner

scott when u say functional strength what do u meen by this?(sorry for sounding thick)

also my main goals are strength more than size.


Over the short term such ultra low volume and low frequency training can and most likely will yield some great results (I added a 1/2" to my arms in about 2 months). That is to be expected, especially if you've previously used a high volume approach. The body is now better rested and can demonstrate some increases in size and strength. However, over the long term, your recovery ability will dwindle and your conditioning will absolutely suck ass! it will get to the point that you'll have trouble recovering even from only 2 or 3 sets once a week. The HD theory says when that happens, decrease volume, add more rest days or both. This only makes the situation worse! Personally, as a SYSTEM of training i believe Heavy Duty, in all its forms, is self-defeating. That sooner or later, the progressive decrease of volume and frequency will reach a dead end and your body will have nothing to adapt to and the tiniest amount of exercise will leave you exhausted.
I now feel it is much more logical to incorporate bouts of very low volume and frequency training at various points thoughout one's training on an "as needed" basis instead of using it as the "end all, be all" way to train.

Of coure there are the guys who say they've used it for years and are still gaining and i say, great! If it works keep on using it! results are what it's all about anyway.
but, if a few months or a year down the road when you've reduced to one set every 10 days and are sore for 3 days afterwards and the only kind of weight you can gain is fat and your strength has either stopped or started to regress, think about what i said here today.

as for people taking his consolidation training seriously, i know John Little certainly does!

regards,
B&G
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

BloodandGuts wrote:
...Of coure there are the guys who say they've used it for years and are still gaining and i say, great! If it works keep on using it! results are what it's all about anyway.
but, if a few months or a year down the road when you've reduced to one set every 10 days and are sore for 3 days afterwards and the only kind of weight you can gain is fat and your strength has either stopped or started to regress, think about what i said here today...

as for people taking his consolidation training seriously, i know John Little certainly does!

regards,
B&G


Only 3 days? Shoot, when I got to the point of training only once every 10 days, I was sore for 5-7 days afterward!
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davise

Thats the thing guys...it is self defeating. If I was a athlete doing a lot of other conditioning above and beyond weight training, I could see a point for consolidation. If all you are doing is consolidation it is not enough...especially one workout every 14 days. Now if you did the consolidation workout as an A.B routine and did one on Monday and one on Friday it could work for some folks...for me it wouldnt be enough. I do about 8 exercises twice a week (rotating in a specialization routine every two weeks) 1 day of running a week(I know, I know, but I have to for tested PT purposes), and two days of martial arts/combatives training a week and two days of no activity. This has been working for me. I feel fit, refreshed and rarin to go...haven't felt overtrained or caught a cold in a long time. On consolidation 3 exercises left me wiped out for a week.
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Welshace13

i do have quite alot of sports i play. i play sports in school, im thinking of returning to playing rugby and im thinking of going running every other monday just to keep in good fitness. that said all i want then after doing that is strength which for me comes alot easier by infrequent training.
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dipsrule

Pennsylvania, USA

Ive been a client of Mentzers,used both the ideal routine and the consolidated.If I were going to go to a once a week routine that is close to Mikes consolidation I would do
squats
machine pullover super set with pulldowns
dips
I would deadlift every 3rd week or workout instead of squats
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hdlifter

Interesting... how long were you a client of Mike's? Did he have you use the consolidation routine from the start or later on, as he did me?
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Welshace13

dipsrule wrote:
Ive been a client of Mentzers,used both the ideal routine and the consolidated.If I were going to go to a once a week routine that is close to Mikes consolidation I would do
squats
machine pullover super set with pulldowns
dips
I would deadlift every 3rd week or workout instead of squats


would you do any military pressing???
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dipsrule

Pennsylvania, USA

I was with Mike before his HD 2 book came out.I used the ideal routine.I think maybe 3-4 calls I had with him.I did this routine for about 4 months.
I went on the consolidation routine a year or so later I dont recall the exact dates,I was a phone client also at this time.I was able to add 100 pounds to my squat.I was training every 6th day.

Over a 4 month time span I slowly added extra day until I was training every 10 days.In the end of that time I was eating 4400 calories a day as per Mikes instruction.I went from 165 pounds to 192 pounds bodyweight.My waist size went from 31 inches to over 36,close to 38 inches.I was adding to much fat and became deconditioned.I was not very happy.The next thing I did was buy Dr.Dardens book liveing longer stronger.I got a workout partner and we pushed each other thru the routines in the book.

We were useing a rep speed of 10/5.Over a three month period I got my weight down to 170 pounds and a 32 inch waste.I could not keep up the pace of 3x a week and my partner quit on me.I went back to Squats,pulldown,and dips once a week for a while with slow reps.I ended up doing mostly hardgainer routines for the next few years.

Greg Anderson helped me out alot with training advice.I got myself stronger and my weight was 187 pounds.This time my waste size was 33 inches.I spoke to Mikes brother Ray a few months before he died,I told him about my Heavy Duty expirence.He said to try the ideal routine again but train every 8 day.I did one workout then stoped.I did not want to weight that long inbetween workouts.The best advice that I got was from Dr.Ken,Dick Conner,and Greg Anderson,and Dr. Darden's books.

I cant forget to mention all of Arthur Jones writeings.Im not training now and have not bin able to since last april.I became ill with celiacs disease,and chron's,ive also been in the hospital twice with pancreatites.It drives me crazy sometimes but I know I have to listen to my doctor.
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dipsrule

Pennsylvania, USA

Welshace13 wrote:
dipsrule wrote:
Ive been a client of Mentzers,used both the ideal routine and the consolidated.If I were going to go to a once a week routine that is close to Mikes consolidation I would do
squats
machine pullover super set with pulldowns
dips
I would deadlift every 3rd week or workout instead of squats

would you do any military pressing???



You could press if you like,or replace the dip with the press.I would press first,before squats.You cuold do
press
squat
pullover/superset with pulldown
dips
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hdlifter

Thanks for filling me in. Unfortunately my timing with linking up with Mike was far from ideal, as at the time he was heavily experimenting in an effort to perfect HDII. He even said to me, "you are part of an experiment". So Mike was sketchy on quite a few areas... especially when it came to frequency.

After outlining my routine I asked him about how many days a week to apply it. That left him a little stumped, but eventually, after a long pause and sigh, Mike said "Oh, Monday, Wednesday, Friday". That wasn't too reassuring, how vague he was on how to apply the routine he'd just given me that cost me $200 ($120 Mike's fee, and $80 a long distance phone call from Australia to the USA).

I think later, after he'd trained more people and had found a nice average, he had a better idea on what worked for the masses. That is why he linked me and Dave Staplin together, to get me to listen to Dave about the values of the consolidation routine.

I gained on it, but like you was anxious all week, eagerly awaiting my next workout. Bodybuilding is as ingrained in my life, as sleeping, eating, and brushing my teeth, so only being able to train 10-15 minutes every 7 days, left me wanting BADLY!

Sorry to hear about your health issues. I hope and prey you overcome them. Best of luck!
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Welshace13

thanks guys, il basicly do what u just said:
press
squats
pull overs
pull ups(insted of pull downs)
dips

then alternate the deadlift and squat
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Welshace13

dipsrule what rep ranges did you use?
i normally fail around 5 reps so was thinking of using 4-6 reps.
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dipsrule

Pennsylvania, USA

You dont have to count rep speed.If you use 10/5 3-4 reps should do it.
otherwise 6-10 reps,dont worry about counting just dont throw the weight or jerk it.
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skrewdriver

dipsrule wrote:
I was with Mike before his HD 2 book came out.I used the ideal routine.I think maybe 3-4 calls I had with him.I did this routine for about 4 months.
I went on the consolidation routine a year or so later I dont recall the exact dates,I was a phone client also at this time.I was able to add 100 pounds to my squat.I was training every 6th day.

Over a 4 month time span I slowly added extra day until I was training every 10 days.In the end of that time I was eating 4400 calories a day as per Mikes instruction.I went from 165 pounds to 192 pounds bodyweight.My waist size went from 31 inches to over 36,close to 38 inches.I was adding to much fat and became deconditioned.I was not very happy.The next thing I did was buy Dr.Dardens book liveing longer stronger.I got a workout partner and we pushed each other thru the routines in the book.

We were useing a rep speed of 10/5.Over a three month period I got my weight down to 170 pounds and a 32 inch waste.I could not keep up the pace of 3x a week and my partner quit on me.I went back to Squats,pulldown,and dips once a week for a while with slow reps.I ended up doing mostly hardgainer routines for the next few years.

Greg Anderson helped me out alot with training advice.I got myself stronger and my weight was 187 pounds.This time my waste size was 33 inches.I spoke to Mikes brother Ray a few months before he died,I told him about my Heavy Duty expirence.He said to try the ideal routine again but train every 8 day.I did one workout then stoped.I did not want to weight that long inbetween workouts.The best advice that I got was from Dr.Ken,Dick Conner,and Greg Anderson,and Dr. Darden's books.

I cant forget to mention all of Arthur Jones writeings.Im not training now and have not bin able to since last april.I became ill with celiacs disease,and chron's,ive also been in the hospital twice with pancreatites.It drives me crazy sometimes but I know I have to listen to my doctor.


I am also on the consolidation routine
with the help of Greg Anderson and let
me tell you that it is the best thing that i have chosen since i started lifting. maybe it won't work with some
but it does work wonders for others such as my self and the people mike trained and the people Greg Anderson trains in his gym.

for those that have never did consolidation training before and are not making any gains with
the routine they are on now give it a try it may do wonders for you.
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dipsrule

Pennsylvania, USA

When I get the ok from my doctor,I will most likely train 2x a week.Ask Greg about his shrug bar rest pause routine.Tell him Dave from PA.told you to ask.
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Tomislav

New York, USA

Welshace13 wrote:
davise wrote:
Dont do it! As much as I liked Mike Mentzer, I think this would not work for the average to better than average guy. I tried it for about 4 months...got weaker and weaker looking and couldn't make it up a flight of stairs without needing a breather. Does anyone really take his consolidation routine seriously anymore?

thanks guys. to be honest ive found less excersise work better for me. like ive been going to the gym once every 7-9 days over the last 2 months and ive probably gained strength quicker than ever. ive got my deadlift up 22.5kg, military press up 10kg, dips up 12.5, pull ups up 5kg, and squat up 12.5 kg.

better than any rippetoe program or any other ive tried and i feel fuly refreshed each time i train. training less frequently in my opinion has seen me gain the quickest since i was a beginner

scott when u say functional strength what do u meen by this?(sorry for sounding thick)

also my main goals are strength more than size.


Hi Welshace,

I think the consolidation routine works very well, especially as you gain a lot of muscle.

Also agree with you on feeling fully refreshed with this type of training.

I would recommend you add a set of skull crushers and a set of curls on your b workout though; this is not just cosmetic - I think the arms can become a weak link in consolidation training that can decrease it's effectiveness considerably - they don't take as long to recover as the trunk muscles.

Likewise, you might consider alternating the squat and the dl in the b workout (for 1xmonth each); I think you can still make great size/strength gains because these muscle groups take the longest to recover and the sports are usually hitting them the hardest as well.


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Welshace13

thanks for all your advice guys, its much help to me by hearing your positive experience with the routine. was the original consolidation routine called the Athlete Routine by mentzer? ive been reading up about it and it was basicly:
workout a
squats
chins

7days rest

workout b
deadlifts
dips

is this what you guys basicly did?
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Jim Clarry

screwdriver, I'm curious about the details of your results Greg is as good as it gets-Jim
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