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Diet: Protein Consumption
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andrantos

I've been weight training seriously for about 2 years now. About a year ago, I started to pay attention to what I ate what I "should" eat to get bigger and get stronger.

For the past year I've been eating tons of protein(230-260g a day) and have tried numerous ratios of fats and carbs. I recently picked up the New HIT and was surprised to see that a lower protein diet was reccomended.

Now, I have been concerned about the potential effects of consuming large amounts of protein, but I am still stuck on the idea that more protein = more muscle. I was hoping to gather some more thoughts on the subject, and possibly a physiological explaination as to how the human body utilizes proteins would help as well(other than the body uses proteins to repair/build up muscle). I'm also definately loving the idea of saving some cash on all that chicken and tuna I buy.
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EricB

Missouri, USA

You'll find a lot of info on resistance training and protein needs if you search www.pubmed.com. It has all the current medical journal abstracts on it.

Basically what we know at this point is weight lifting may lower your need for protein vs. general population. There is evidence that a higher intake can lead to better mass gains and help with maintaining LBM on a diet. The best recommendation I have heard is to shoot for about 1g per pound of BW. It will cover all your bases and isn't an unhealthy level.
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Yes

Heres the latest article from one of the leading experts on this subject:

http://article.pubs.nrc-cnrc.g...

The conclusion:

"Available evidence suggests that protein requirements are not likely elevated, if they are elevated at all, by substantial amounts in persons completing exercise of either a dynamic or resistive nature. Ultimately, a debate on protein requirements appears to be moot for most athletes anyway, since their habitual intakes, particularly those of males, far exceed the RDA and even the most liberal estimates of requirement, which when estimated from existing nitrogen balance data in strength-trained athletes is ~1.3 g protein?kg?1?d?1 or ~1.1 g protein?kg?1?d?1 in endurance-trained athletes."

Here you can see the recomendations from other experts:

http://i11.tinypic.com/34qwj61...
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SanDiego

EricB wrote:


Basically what we know at this point is weight lifting may lower your need for protein vs. general population.


I had never heard this before... Even while trying to build muscle?
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EricB

Missouri, USA

SanDiego wrote:
EricB wrote:


Basically what we know at this point is weight lifting may lower your need for protein vs. general population.

I had never heard this before... Even while trying to build muscle?


Here's a recent study on it. Researchers definately need to look at this more.

Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2006 Oct;31(5):557-64. Links
Resistance training reduces whole-body protein turnover and improves net protein retention in untrained young males.

* Hartman JW,
* Moore DR,
* Phillips SM.

Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, 1280 Main Street West, McMaster University, Hamilton, ON L8S 4K1, Canada.

It is thought that resistance exercise results in an increased need for dietary protein; however, data also exists to support the opposite conclusion. The purpose of this study was to determine the impact of resistance exercise training on protein metabolism in novices with the hypothesis that resistance training would reduce protein turnover and improve whole-body protein retention. Healthy males (n = 8, 22 +/- 1 y, BMI = 25.3 +/- 1.8 kg.m(-2)) participated in a progressive whole-body split routine resistance-training program 5d/week for 12 weeks. Before (PRE) and after (POST) the training, oral [15N]-glycine ingestion was used to assess nitrogen flux (Q), protein synthesis (PS), protein breakdown (PB), and net protein balance (NPB = PS-PB). Macronutrient intake was controlled over a 5d period PRE and POST, while estimates of protein turnover and urinary nitrogen balance (N(bal) = N(in) - urine N(out)) were conducted. Bench press and leg press increased 40% and 50%, respectively (p < 0.01). Fat- and bone-free mass (i.e., lean muscle mass) increased from PRE to POST (2.5 +/- 0.8 kg, p < 0.05). Significant PRE to POST decreases (p <0.05) occurred in Q (0.9 +/- 0.1 vs. 0.6 +/- 0.1 g N.kg(-1).d(-1)), PS (4.6 +/- 0.7 vs. 2.9 +/- 0.3 g.kg(-1).d(-1)), and PB (4.3 +/- 0.7 vs. 2.4 +/- 0.2 g.kg(-1).d(-1)). Significant training-induced increases in both NPB (PRE = 0.22 +/- 0.13 g.kg(-1).d(-1); POST = 0.54 +/- 0.08 g.kg(-1).d(-1)) and urinary nitrogen balance (PRE = 2.8 +/- 1.7 g N.d(-1); POST = 6.5 +/- 0.9 g N.d(-1)) were observed. A program of resistance training that induced significant muscle hypertrophy resulted in reductions of both whole-body PS and PB, but an improved NPB, which favoured the accretion of skeletal muscle protein. Urinary nitrogen balance increased after training. The reduction in PS and PB and a higher NPB in combination with an increased nitrogen balance after training suggest that dietary requirements for protein in novice resistance-trained athletes are not higher, but lower, after resistance training.
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Gluteus Maximus

i saw this study awhile back and i think it is true. another thing about high protein diets is that it may be hard on the kidneys. people with already bad kidneys get much worse quickly with high protein but find their kidney function dramattically improve with protein restriction.

it's easier to measure declining kidney function with bad kidneys, and harder to see small bad changes in people with good kideys, so this has led some to speculate that too much protein may be bad for even good kidneys but damage from high protein may not show up for years or even decades.

something to keep in mind if your eating lots of protein questionably trying to build little more muscle from it but want to place the safe bet and preserve your health too

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M Lipowski

New York, USA

EricB wrote:
SanDiego wrote:
EricB wrote:


Basically what we know at this point is weight lifting may lower your need for protein vs. general population.

I had never heard this before... Even while trying to build muscle?

Here's a recent study on it. Researchers definately need to look at this more.

Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2006 Oct;31(5):557-64. Links
Resistance training reduces whole-body protein turnover and improves net protein retention in untrained young males.

* Hartman JW,
* Moore DR,
* Phillips SM.

Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, 1280 Main Street West, McMaster University, Hamilton, ON L8S 4K1, Canada.

It is thought that resistance exercise results in an increased need for dietary protein; however, data also exists to support the opposite conclusion. The purpose of this study was to determine the impact of resistance exercise training on protein metabolism in novices with the hypothesis that resistance training would reduce protein turnover and improve whole-body protein retention. Healthy males (n = 8, 22 +/- 1 y, BMI = 25.3 +/- 1.8 kg.m(-2)) participated in a progressive whole-body split routine resistance-training program 5d/week for 12 weeks. Before (PRE) and after (POST) the training, oral [15N]-glycine ingestion was used to assess nitrogen flux (Q), protein synthesis (PS), protein breakdown (PB), and net protein balance (NPB = PS-PB). Macronutrient intake was controlled over a 5d period PRE and POST, while estimates of protein turnover and urinary nitrogen balance (N(bal) = N(in) - urine N(out)) were conducted. Bench press and leg press increased 40% and 50%, respectively (p < 0.01). Fat- and bone-free mass (i.e., lean muscle mass) increased from PRE to POST (2.5 +/- 0.8 kg, p < 0.05). Significant PRE to POST decreases (p <0.05) occurred in Q (0.9 +/- 0.1 vs. 0.6 +/- 0.1 g N.kg(-1).d(-1)), PS (4.6 +/- 0.7 vs. 2.9 +/- 0.3 g.kg(-1).d(-1)), and PB (4.3 +/- 0.7 vs. 2.4 +/- 0.2 g.kg(-1).d(-1)). Significant training-induced increases in both NPB (PRE = 0.22 +/- 0.13 g.kg(-1).d(-1); POST = 0.54 +/- 0.08 g.kg(-1).d(-1)) and urinary nitrogen balance (PRE = 2.8 +/- 1.7 g N.d(-1); POST = 6.5 +/- 0.9 g N.d(-1)) were observed. A program of resistance training that induced significant muscle hypertrophy resulted in reductions of both whole-body PS and PB, but an improved NPB, which favoured the accretion of skeletal muscle protein. Urinary nitrogen balance increased after training. The reduction in PS and PB and a higher NPB in combination with an increased nitrogen balance after training suggest that dietary requirements for protein in novice resistance-trained athletes are not higher, but lower, after resistance training.


I think what you have to be careful of when looking at this study is the fact that: A) they are observing novice trainees and B) they are only speaking of protein requirements AFTER resistance training.

I simply think that the researchers mis-interpeted the results of the study. Other studies have shown exactly what this one had ITO protein syntesis, breakdown and nitrogen balance (which isn't necessarily the best measure of protein needs), but have concluded that these are the reasons why increased potein consumption IS necessary.

It is true that the body does not "require" as much protein as many bodybuilders consume but the question is why. The reason is, when more muscle is built the body then has more muscle protein to rely on in the absence of dietary protein. Think of it like this: if you just finished an intense leg workout in the days to come the muscles will require protein for repair and growth (basic stuff that we already know). But where will that protein come from if enough is not consumed through our diet?

Answer: other muscles! Hypothetically speaking, muscle protein from your arms will be pulled from in order to meet the needs of your recovering legs. Not what you want if you want to maintain or increase the size of your arms.

Amino acids are needed for just about every bodily function. Aminos cannot be converted from carbs or from fat, only from dietary protein OR if necessary (and hopefully not) from existing muscle protein.

What the study is demonstrating is a short-term effect of muscle development but not what's ideal for continued development.

What this study is not considering which just about every other study on the subject has is: what would be the long term effects of consuming less protein over a long period of time and with an advanced trainee?

Mike

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EricB

Missouri, USA

M Lipowski wrote:
Answer: other muscles! Hypothetically speaking, muscle protein from your arms will be pulled from in order to meet the needs of your recovering legs. Not what you want if you want to maintain or increase the size of your arms.

Amino acids are needed for just about every bodily function. Aminos cannot be converted from carbs or from fat, only from dietary protein OR if necessary (and hopefully not) from existing muscle protein.



We're not dealing in hypotheticals here, but reality. Your argument here is not even close to reality. Your body can not pull protein from your arms to help with protein synthesis in your legs.

What the study is demonstrating is that resistance training makes our bodies become more effecient in using amino acids. So it is possible that less protein is required for people that resistance train.

Like I said in a previous post there are studies that show a higher intake as beneficial. Tipton makes the best argument for about 1g per pound to cover all your bases and at that level it doesn't have any health risks.
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andrantos

EricB wrote:
M Lipowski wrote:
Answer: other muscles! Hypothetically speaking, muscle protein from your arms will be pulled from in order to meet the needs of your recovering legs. Not what you want if you want to maintain or increase the size of your arms.

Amino acids are needed for just about every bodily function. Aminos cannot be converted from carbs or from fat, only from dietary protein OR if necessary (and hopefully not) from existing muscle protein.



We're not dealing in hypotheticals here, but reality. Your argument here is not even close to reality. Your body can not pull protein from your arms to help with protein synthesis in your legs.

What the study is demonstrating is that resistance training makes our bodies become more effecient in using amino acids. So it is possible that less protein is required for people that resistance train.

Like I said in a previous post there are studies that show a higher intake as beneficial. Tipton makes the best argument for about 1g per pound to cover all your bases and at that level it doesn't have any health risks.


Maybe this is just how I'm interpreting this, so correct me if my thinking is wrong. But, what you're saying is that because someone who has trained has relied more on protein, the body adapts itself to using a higher percentage of protein and discarding less of it?

Example:
So lets say before I started working out, if I ate 50g of protein in one sitting my body would use 25g and waste the other half. Now, after being trained and having eaten lots of protein over the past year, if I eat 50g of protein in one sitting, my body will use 40g and waste only 10g. So, I can decrease my total intake simply because my body wastes less of the protein that I take in.
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M Lipowski

New York, USA

EricB wrote:
M Lipowski wrote:
Answer: other muscles! Hypothetically speaking, muscle protein from your arms will be pulled from in order to meet the needs of your recovering legs. Not what you want if you want to maintain or increase the size of your arms.

Amino acids are needed for just about every bodily function. Aminos cannot be converted from carbs or from fat, only from dietary protein OR if necessary (and hopefully not) from existing muscle protein.



We're not dealing in hypotheticals here, but reality. Your argument here is not even close to reality. Your body can not pull protein from your arms to help with protein synthesis in your legs.




Okay, let's not talk hypothetical let's talk reality which my argument, despite the example I used to prove a point is this:

Amino acids are not only needed by the muscles but als by the brain for millions of chemical reactions that are constantly taking place. Whenever amino acids in the blood stream runs low the brain will turn to the liver where a very small supply of aminos are stored but inevitably it will turn to the muscles where aminos reside in abundance.

Look at any hardcore vegetarian and take note of how stringy and underdeveloped their muscles look. It's the result of the body utilizing muscle protein to supply the aminos necessary for other functions as well as feeding off itself to help repair itself (very inefficient).

By maintaining adequated amino acid levels in the blood stream at all times you prevent yourself from entering a catabolic state.


What the study is demonstrating is that resistance training makes our bodies become more effecient in using amino acids. So it is possible that less protein is required for people that resistance train.


More efficient in using amino's from where though? What I'm contending is that in this scenario the body is simply using the already existing supply of amino's that reside in the muscles. It's feeding off itself.

I typically reccomend that someone take in 1-1.5g of protein per pound of lean mass so I know we agree on how much a resistance trainee should consume. It's what this study is suggesting that I find (based also on the abundance of other studies) to be inaccurate in terms of the recomendations one might take from it. And again the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of higer protein intake for muscle development.

It should also be noted that individuals of varying body types and metabolisms differ in their rates of protein synthesis, breakdown, and turnover which can dramatically effect the amount they need for anabolism, as will their carbohydrate consumption.

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BF Bullpup

Massachusetts, USA

I would take the not-too-high recommendation in Dr. Darden's books with a grain of salt. The books are targeted towards those who are trying to lose fat.

The problem with high-protein diets is often that the people on them forget to eat high carbs too. Where is the body going to get the energy to digest all those protein and use the amino acids for muscle hypertrophy?

1 gram per pound of lean mass has been rehashed a billion times, not because people were brainwashed, but because it usually works. I can't imagine a HIT trainer needing more than that recommendation.
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Law&Order

Taken from the following webpage,with regard to Heart Disease.

www.karlloren.com/diet/p41.htm

---------------------------------
*In our group over the last month or so, we have bandied about the idea of the ancestral macronutrient compositions (i.e., percent fat, protein, and carbohydrate) and how they influence health. Clearly, in the normal Western diet (approximately 45-50% carbohydrate, 35-40% fat, and 10-15% protein), if dietary saturated fats are reduced, then total and LDL cholesterol are also reduced. Keys [1965] has published an equation which has been used extensively to predict changes in serum cholesterol from dietary lipids and cholesterol. Others [Mensink 1992] more recently have confirmed Keys' equation.

However, in perhaps the most well-controlled, modern dietary study of Greenland Eskimos [Bang and Dyerberg 1980], it has been shown that ischemic heart disease is very uncommon in these people (3.5% vs. 45-50% mortality rate in Western countries). The dietary macronutrient content of these partially Westernized Eskimos was 38% carbohydrate, 39% fat, and 23% protein, whereas the values for the control group of Danish people were 47% carbohydrate, 42% fat, and 11% protein. Mean total cholesterol levels in the Eskimos (5.03 mmol/liter) were significantly lower than in the Danes (6.18 mmol/liter) whereas triglycerides (TG) (0.57 vs. 1.23 mmol/liter) and VLDL (0.43 vs. 1.29 mmol/liter) were much lower in the Eskimos, and HDL levels were significantly higher (4.00 vs. 3.34 mmol/liter).

Based upon the Keys et al. equation, the actual difference between the Eskimos' and Danes' total cholesterol levels should have been 0.67 mmol/liter, whereas in actuality it was 1.15 mmol/liter. This data suggests that the Keys equation may be invalid under circumstances wherein high quantities of animal products replace traditionally grain-dominated diets. Possible reasons for this discrepancy include the following characteristics of the Eskimos' diet:

* Higher protein levels in the face of lowered carbohydrate may induce different lipoprotein transport mechanisms [Wolfe 1995], and/or

* Differences in polyunsaturated fats between the two diets (high levels of n3 fats, and high levels of preformed long-chain fats of both n3 and n6 families).

The bottom line here is that present-day hunter-gatherers maintain quite low serum lipid levels despite high consumptions of animal-based foods.

Comment: To clarify the above, it appears that the likely reason the Keys equation fails to correctly predict cholesterol levels in situations such as the Eskimo study above is that it does not take into account the effects of carbohydrate on insulin secretion. Hyperinsulinemia now appears as if it may be one of the largest risk factors for CHD. Both high-protein and low-carbohydrate intakes, which were seen in the Eskimo study, promote inhibition of excess insulin.*



www.karlloren.com/diet/p41.htm

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Law&Order

I believe it worthwhile me posting the following too - just a reference for those whom it may be of use.

--------------------------

AMINO ACIDS
============
Protein is made up of Amino Acids which are considered to be the building blocks of life. There are nine essential amino acids which must be obtained in the diet. In addition there are a further 13 amino acids present in protein which are considered non-essential as they can be synthesised by the body. There are also many other amino acids but they do not form parts of protein. Research over recent years has shown that the human body has evolved to best utilise amino acids which are in dipeptide and tripeptide form (these are most commonly found in hydrolysates, ion exchanges and cross flow prepared whey proteins) which simply means two or three amino acids have been joined together. These are better absorbed, and retained, than both whole food proteins and free form amino acids.

There are a group of amino acids called Branched Chain Amino Acids (BCAA) which play an important role during exercise. They are the main amino acids to be sacrificed from muscle tissue during muscle catabolism. BCAA consist of three amino acids; leucine, Isoleucine, and Valine. The cause of this breakdown is that during exercise large amounts of the non-essential amino acids alanine and glutamine are used, in fact more than the body stores, and the deficit is made up by the body converting BCAA's into these two aminos.

To prevent this breakdown it has become common to try to raise blood levels of BCAA prior to exercise to reduce muscle breakdown. Supplementing with Glutamine directly after training then further reduces post exercise catabolism.

Glucogenic Amino Acids is a term used to describe the three amino acids threonine, glutamine and arginine. This term means that they lend themselves to glucose production, which is used for energy during exercise. Ample levels of these aminos may help prevent muscle breakdown, and has also been shown to increase feed efficiency in animals (ie grow more from the same amount of food). Protein technologies have identified a group of amino acids called the Critical Cluster Amino Acids which play a big part in muscle sparing during dieting or intense exercise. This cluster consists of the three BCAA's along with Glutamine and Arginine which are two conditionally essential' amino acids. Around 45% of whey protein consists of the critical cluster aminos, with milk (casein) and soy protein isolate next in line at around 36%.







ESSENTIAL AMINO ACIDS

Histidine
This is a basic amino acid due to its aromatic nitrogen-heterocyclic imidazole side chain. It is biochemically metabolised into the neurotransmitter histimine.

Isoleucine
This amino acid has no other significant biological role than incorporation into proteins and enzymes where main purpose is to help dictate tertiary structure of macromolecules.

Leucine
This is a hydrophobic amino acid found as a structural element on the interior of proteins. It is the second most common amino acid found in proteins

Lysine
This amino acid is commonly found at the surface of proteins and is present in meat, fish, poultry and dairy.

Methionine
This amino acid helps to initiate translation of RNA by being the first amino acid incorporated into the N-terminal position of all proteins.

Phenylalanine
Plays a key role in the biosynthesis of amino acids and neurotransmitters.

Threonine
Plays an important role in Porphyrin metabolism.

Tryptophan
Is the biosynthetic precursor to the important neurotransmitter serotonin.

Valine
Determines the 3D structure of proteins due to its hydrophobic nature. Sources include soy flour, cottage cheese, fish, meat and vegetables.







NON-ESSENTIAL AMINO ACIDS

Alanine
Involved in the metabolism of tryptophan. One of the simplest amino acids most widely used in protein construction. It has little therapeutic role in humans however has been shown to have a cholesterol reducing effect in rats.

Arginine
A complex amino acid often found at the active catalytic site in proteins and enzymes. Is actually an essential amino acid during the juvenile period in humans. Natural sources include brown rice, nuts, raisins, and whole wheat.

Asparagine
A derivative of Aspartic Acid. Has an important role in the biosynthesis of proteins.

Aspartic Acid
This amino has a paramount role in metabolism during construction of other amino acids and biochemical's in the citric acid cycle.

Cysteine
Often involved in the three dimensional stability of proteins and critical to the metabolism of coenzyme A, biotin, lipoic acid, & glutathione.

Glutamic Acid
Negatively charged and therefore very polar and usually found on the outside of proteins where it is free to interact with intracellular surroundings.

Glutamine
Has an important role in cellular metabolism of animals and is the only amino acid with the ability to easily cross the barrier between blood and brain. It also has a central role in the regulation of bodily ammonia levels.

Glycine
This is the simplest amino acid and is essential for the biosynthesis of nucleic acids as well as bile
acids & creatine phosphate. It is the second most common amino acid found in proteins which has the ability to inhibit neurotransmitter signals in the central nervous system.

Proline
This is a major component of the protein collagen, the connective tissue that binds and supports other tissues.

Serine
This amino has a major role in a variety of biosynthetic pathways including those involving pyrimidines, purines, &
creatine.

Valine
Determines the three dimensional structure of proteins due to its hydrophobic nature. Sources include soy flour, cottage cheese, fish, meat and vegetables.







BRANCHED CHAIN AMINO ACIDS (BCAAS)

The branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs) are leucine, isoleucine, and valine. BCAAs are considered essential amino acids, because human beings cannot survive unless these amino acids are present in the diet. In other words, we, as humans, cannot create these amino acids ourselves so we have to eat or drink them from an external source. BCAAs are vital for the maintenance of muscle tissue and preserve muscle stores of glycogen (the storage form of carbohydrate/sugar that can be converted into energy - stored in muscle tissue and liver). BCAAs also help prevent muscle protein breakdown during exercise. This is why many athletes consume a whey protein high in BCAA's or consume BCAA capsules prior to and post training. Endurance athletes, such as cyclists and runners also use the BCAA's as an assistance to strengthen their immune systems and delay the onset of fatigue.

BCAAs have been shown to help to delay fatigue during exercise, making them suitable for people, as stated above, taking part in sports such as distance running or cycling. Those involved in team sports, such as rugby, football or hockey will also benefit. The beneficial effect of BCAAs on muscle preservation and growth also makes them suitable for anyone wanting to lose fat without losing muscle. That is why you often see many hardcore bodybuilders dieting hard, and swallowing handfuls of these all important BCAA capsules at a time throughout the day.

BCAAs are used up by your body as a fuel source during exercise. Tryptophan (an amino acid - see above) levels rise in response to this. When tryptophan enters your brain, it leads to feelings of tiredness - again a reason many people supplement with Tyrptophan or 5-HTP to help them sleep. Some experts believe that by supplementing with BCAAs during exercise, you can keep exercising
at a higher pace for longer. Indeed, several studies show that BCAAs consumed during exercise has a beneficial effect on performance, reducing fatigue and raising energy levels. BCAA's have been shown in research to improve recovery rates between exercise sessions. 26 subjects took part in one study where they took place in a 30-kilometer cross country race and another 32 subjects ran a full length marathon. In both races, the participants found that BCAAs improved physical performance and helped them recover more quickly.

It has been found that the immune system of elite triathletes has been strengthened by the use of BCAA's, outlined by Brazillian research. With only thirty days of supplementation being enough to reduce symptoms of infection by an impressive 34%. The group was given either six grams of BCAAs or a 'dummy' supplement thirty days before taking part in an Olympic triathlon. Endurance events typically require a high volume of training, and often involve multiple daily workouts, which can weaken the immune system dramatically. It is supplements that are as highly effective as BCAA's at improving the immune system against the hardships of such intense training that make it absolutely invaluable. The main finding of the study was that the reduced incidence of infection was linked to higher levels of glutamine in the triathletes supplementing with the BCAAs. Glutamine already being proven to improve recovery and tissue repair - especially in severe burns patients,being the primary constituent of your muscles after water.

It is also well known that BCAA supplementation are also useful in special situations, such as preventing muscle loss at high altitudes and prolonging endurance performance in the heat. A group of 16 subjects
participating in a 21-day trek at high altitude, in one study, were divided in two groups. One group took BCAAs (5.76, 2.88 and 2.88 grams per day of leucine, isoleucine and valine, respectively) or a placebo. The BCAA group lost significantly less muscle than those using a placebo. Subjects using BCAA lost about 10% more fat compared to the group using the placebo. Arm muscle size tended to increase in the BCAA group, whereas there was a significant decrease of 6.8% in the placebo group. The same tendency was observed for the thigh muscles. These staggeringly real life results makes you wonder what you are missing out on if you miss out on BCAA supplementation.

BCAA content are found in the highest quantity in dairy products and red meat, although they are present in all protein-containing foods. Whey protein, particularly whey protein isolates rather than the concentrates, is especially rich in BCAAs, and has become a staple part of the diet for anyone wanting to build muscle. Because it helps to prevent the loss of muscle, whey protein is also used extensively during weight loss programs.

The International Journal of Sports Medicine contains particular evidence for this where twenty-five competitive wrestlers were assigned to one of several groups. Each group followed a slightly different diet. One of the groups, however, consumed a diet that was high in BCAAs. After 19 days of low-calorie dieting, subjects using BCAAs lost the most weight and body fat. During exercise it is a good idea to consume approximately 3-5 grams of BCAA, preferably with 30-50 grams of carbohydrate, to delay fatigue and improve exercise performance. Due to the preservation of muscle tissue requiring such high doses of BCAA, most experts recommend the use of several servings of whey protein spread throughout the day, rather than consuming bucket loads of BCAA capsules - as whey is extremely high in BCAA content.

Most users report an immediate improvement in performance during extended periods of exercise.
Consumed for several months, a diet high in BCAA will reduce the incidence of infection. You can also expect faster muscle growth during periods of intense training, and less muscle loss when
attempting to lose weight.

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Gluteus Maximus

virtually no one in USA is lacking in hambuger protein or amino acids..

but most are not eating enuf of this..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17...

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M Lipowski

New York, USA

Gluteus Maximus wrote:
virtually no one in USA is lacking in hambuger protein or amino acids..

but most are not eating enuf of this..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17...



I don't know if I agree Gluteus. More often than not when I get a new client and we start talking diet 9 times out of 10 they are severly lacking in protein consumption, relying on a diet that is heavy in refined carbs.

But I do completely agree that most people are certainly not getting enough vegetables.

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Gluteus Maximus

M Lipowski wrote:
Gluteus Maximus wrote:
virtually no one in USA is lacking in hambuger protein or amino acids..

but most are not eating enuf of this..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17...



I don't know if I agree Gluteus. More often than not when I get a new client and we start talking diet 9 times out of 10 they are severly lacking in protein consumption, relying on a diet that is heavy in refined carbs.

But I do completely agree that most people are certainly not getting enough vegetables.



9 out of 10 are "severely" lacking in protein, really?!! that's an amazing claim considering the RDA is only 0.8g/kg bodyweight. and the RDA has a built in safety factor of ~+50%.

just how much protein were your clients consuming before you saved them from certain ruin?
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gorlando

M Lipowski wrote:
Gluteus Maximus wrote:
virtually no one in USA is lacking in hambuger protein or amino acids..

but most are not eating enuf of this..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17...






it's perfectly logical.

people don't eat a lot of vegetables because vegetables generally are not very good tasting in their natural state. that is because they do not went to be eaten. self protective.

of course, you can make anything taste good if you fry it or put a lot of seasoning on it.

fruits, on the other hand, are perfect, but the reason people don't eat them is because the offerings at the local market are essentially poor tasting garbage, high in pesticides, and low in nutrition. the only good produce is that which is grown organically, which most people don't go out of their way to eat, plus it "costs" more (in a shortsighted way).

gary
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RyanWallace

Massachusetts, USA

I can agree somewhat that a typical client doesnt get alot of protein and they consume alot of refined carbs. Alot of avid trainees can't believe what alot of the general public consumes.

Probably because people who like to train and eat well also are around people with similar interests of training and eating well. I will personally sit down with a client and they dont consume enough protein, whole grains, veggies.

Their diet will literally be donuts, coffee, soda, french fries, cinabon..and that is just breakfast and lunch. Some clients do not think that is too bad of a diet.
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M Lipowski

New York, USA

Gluteus Maximus wrote:

just how much protein were your clients consuming before you saved them from certain ruin?


I'll glance over the sarcasm to answer your question. Most people tend only to have a serving of protein w/ their lunch and dinner, and only at dinner time is it considered the "main" part of the meal as opposed to at lunch when it's maybe a little chicken on a salad or some lunch meat.

I personally feel the RDA is way behind on the issue of "how much protein" where the resistance training individual is concerned.

Part of the reason why I recomend a high protein intake for my clients is not just because of the thermic advantage of protein over carbs and fat when fat-loss is the #1 concern. But b/c I've observed numerous times a person not getting enough protein, their progress stagnate and upon the recomendation that they increase their protein intake they make another surge in muscular development.

It's not about taking in large quanitites of protein for the heck of it. As we all know the body can only utilize so much protein at once but none of know exactly how much that is. Sure people have speculated that it may be 25 grams, 30 grams, or whatever but the truth is people process vastly different amounts from a single sitting and how long that supply lasts them before they begin entering a catabolic state varies as well. I'd rather be on the safe side and make sure that protein is the FIRST consideration at each meal so that my amino acid levels never drop too low.

If a person takes in heavy amounts of protein in one or two meals a day they might meet their RDA daily recomendation for protein, but from those two meals their body may only utilize a fraction of that amount with the rest being converted to glycogen or stored as fat. Once it's in one of those two forms it's useless to us for repair and growth. Essentially their muscles will only spend a small amount of time in a anabolic state. Now if they're taking in a decent amount of carbs they won't necessarily enter a catabolic state since carbs are anti-catabolic but the idea is to be in an anabolic state as much as possible...this can't happen without our beloved protein.

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medici

Spain

M Lipowski wrote:


It's not about taking in large quanitites of protein for the heck of it. As we all know the body can only utilize so much protein at once but none of know exactly how much that is. Sure people have speculated that it may be 25 grams, 30 grams, or whatever but the truth is people process vastly different amounts from a single sitting and how long that supply lasts them before they begin entering a catabolic state varies as well. I'd rather be on the safe side and make sure that protein is the FIRST consideration at each meal so that my amino acid levels never drop too low.

If a person takes in heavy amounts of protein in one or two meals a day they might meet their RDA daily recomendation for protein, but from those two meals their body may only utilize a fraction of that amount with the rest being converted to glycogen or stored as fat. Once it's in one of those two forms it's useless to us for repair and growth. Essentially their muscles will only spend a small amount of time in a anabolic state. Now if they're taking in a decent amount of carbs they won't necessarily enter a catabolic state since carbs are anti-catabolic but the idea is to be in an anabolic state as much as possible...this can't happen without our beloved protein.



First, I'm with you Dr Mike.

Some time last year, T-Nation ran an alluring piece by Poloquin reporting on experiments he'd been doing in Phoenix with betaine HCl. As best I recall, he reported on a method of determining HCl supplement needs that sounded a bit odd, but went on to report some substantial msucle weight increases over likely sixty days time with betaine HCl.

The thought remained with me, especially since Vince Gironda was a big advocate of HCl. Then a few months back Jerry Brainum reported in Iron Man Magazine on new studies concerning protein uptake time. At the high end of the scale was cooked ages, uptaking at a rate of 2.3 grams of protein per hour. Astonishingly low, for sure. IM has promissed more, and we wait now with baited breath!

I believe whey isolate and albumin are fast uptake, likely faster than that 2.3. However, the more important questions would seem to include: assuming that 2.3 gms/hr is true, does that indicate a slowing down of HCl and enzyme production?

We know slowing down occurs with vegetarians. Pervasive use of soda drinks is said to contribute to an alkalinity condition. Does it effect digestion? (likely).

Perhaps 30 grams at a time - admittedly, a somewhat meaningless number without some consideration for type of protein and what else is consumed with it - is more a marker of a maximum condition with respect to available HCl, etc.

I make no claims to knowing anything, so instead of throwing my hat into the ring I'm throwing out some questions for y'all.

best
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Gluteus Maximus

You claim that 9 out of 10 are "severely" protein deficient. That's quite an amazing statement. My question is how much protein are these people consuming daily when you first see them?

M Lipowski wrote:
Gluteus Maximus wrote:

just how much protein were your clients consuming before you saved them from certain ruin?

I'll glance over the sarcasm to answer your question. Most people tend only to have a serving of protein w/ their lunch and dinner, and only at dinner time is it considered the "main" part of the meal as opposed to at lunch when it's maybe a little chicken on a salad or some lunch meat.

I personally feel the RDA is way behind on the issue of "how much protein" where the resistance training individual is concerned.

Part of the reason why I recomend a high protein intake for my clients is not just because of the thermic advantage of protein over carbs and fat when fat-loss is the #1 concern. But b/c I've observed numerous times a person not getting enough protein, their progress stagnate and upon the recomendation that they increase their protein intake they make another surge in muscular development.

It's not about taking in large quanitites of protein for the heck of it. As we all know the body can only utilize so much protein at once but none of know exactly how much that is. Sure people have speculated that it may be 25 grams, 30 grams, or whatever but the truth is people process vastly different amounts from a single sitting and how long that supply lasts them before they begin entering a catabolic state varies as well. I'd rather be on the safe side and make sure that protein is the FIRST consideration at each meal so that my amino acid levels never drop too low.

If a person takes in heavy amounts of protein in one or two meals a day they might meet their RDA daily recomendation for protein, but from those two meals their body may only utilize a fraction of that amount with the rest being converted to glycogen or stored as fat. Once it's in one of those two forms it's useless to us for repair and growth. Essentially their muscles will only spend a small amount of time in a anabolic state. Now if they're taking in a decent amount of carbs they won't necessarily enter a catabolic state since carbs are anti-catabolic but the idea is to be in an anabolic state as much as possible...this can't happen without our beloved protein.



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M Lipowski

New York, USA

Gluteus Maximus wrote:
You claim that 9 out of 10 are "severely" protein deficient. That's quite an amazing statement. My question is how much protein are these people consuming daily when you first see them?



Is it really that amazing? I don't think so. I don't consider <60-75 g. of protein per day to be sufficient for someone who is engaging in intense exercise 3 times a week as most of these people are. Especially when you consider that some of this protein is coming from very poor sources. Or to put it another way they're not getting enough protein from the best sources (i.e. Whey, egg whites, chicken, fish, or meat).

So no, I don't think it's an "amazing" statement when I say these people are "severly lacking" in their protein consumption. They're not getting enough of the right sources and they're not getting enough.

Many people are not even aware of what constitutes a good source of protein. I can't tell you the number of times someone thought that because they have a handful of nuts or a tablespoon of peanut butter a few times each day that they're getting a good amount of protein. Sure there's protein in it but what, 4-10 grams. Not only is that not enough but it's not even a great source.


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Law&Order

http://jn.nutrition.org/...t/130/4/886.pdf
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Gluteus Maximus

M Lipowski wrote:
Gluteus Maximus wrote:
You claim that 9 out of 10 are "severely" protein deficient. That's quite an amazing statement. My question is how much protein are these people consuming daily when you first see them?



Is it really that amazing? I don't think so. I don't consider <60-75 g. of protein per day to be sufficient for someone who is engaging in intense exercise 3 times a week as most of these people are. Especially when you consider that some of this protein is coming from very poor sources. Or to put it another way they're not getting enough protein from the best sources (i.e. Whey, egg whites, chicken, fish, or meat).

So no, I don't think it's an "amazing" statement when I say these people are "severly lacking" in their protein consumption. They're not getting enough of the right sources and they're not getting enough.

Many people are not even aware of what constitutes a good source of protein. I can't tell you the number of times someone thought that because they have a handful of nuts or a tablespoon of peanut butter a few times each day that they're getting a good amount of protein. Sure there's protein in it but what, 4-10 grams. Not only is that not enough but it's not even a great source.




The evidence is against your opinion, most nitrogen studies do not support your claim. the guy or gall off the street is not lacking in protein, and certainly not "severely" protein deficient", LOL that's simply absurd !

Most are overweight are getting too much of everything except vegetables, fruit and whole grains. They do eat too much simple carbs i agree with you there but they also eat too much protein.
certainly not less than they need.

You may not know this but the RDA in protein is based on lean bodyweight not total bodyweight. Muscle use protein FAT does nNOT. For 200 lb person with 30% BF you have an actual 140lb lean person there. His protein RDA is based on 140 lbs not 200.

Also the RDA of 0.8g/kg has a built in +50% increase over actual need as determined by scientific investigation. Plenty btw to build all the muscle you can muster and then some!

So they don't need you to increase their protein they need you to get them off the simple carbs, get them on fruits, vegetables and whole grains. They need LESS cals not more.

For every gram more of protein you make them eat that's a gram of good carb they CAN"T eat. carbs are what they do need to fuel their workouts and carbs are protein sparing too. Further reducing the need for protein. They need to eat less cals and more good carbs but they can't if you make them eat bookoo protein each meal.

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medici

Spain

Gluteus Maximus wrote:

The evidence is against your opinion, most nitrogen studies do not support your claim. the guy or gall off the street is not lacking in protein, and certainly not "severely" protein deficient", LOL that's simply absurd !

Most are overweight are getting too much of everything except vegetables, fruit and whole grains. They do eat too much simple carbs i agree with you there but they also eat too much protein.
certainly not less than they need.



For every gram more of protein you make them eat that's a gram of good carb they CAN"T eat. carbs are what they do need to fuel their workouts and carbs are protein sparing too. Further reducing the need for protein. They need to eat less cals and more good carbs but they can't if you make them eat bookoo protein each meal.



It is with amusement that one recognizes how the wisdom of the unconscious mind choses metaphors expressive of one's deeper self-image, as with the handles used in discussion groups. Caveat lector!

1. Bookoo? beaucoup, peut-etre? or a faux-amis?

2. You say "most nitrogen studies do not support your claim..." Citations or bibliographic entries s'il vous plais...

3. The average person in the street remains a metabolic disaster zone, those past thirty in most cases in the early stages of sarcopenia wasting disorder with concomittant metabolic syndrome.

4. John Berardi,PhD, Mauro di Pasquale, MD, and others uphold a view of athletic diet advocating not only high protein intake but also with a view to formative periods in human evolution casting the template for dietary needs; contemporary diets, composed of high processed foods and meats, are in gross contempt of human nutritional needs. Combined with lack of challenging physical stress, the "advanced" nations are also those in the grips of preventable illnesses induced by diet and absense of challenging stress.

gracias y por favor, senor
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