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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

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Dave Price

New Jersey, USA

Hi I was wondering if anyone knows if Vince Gironda has ever written a book on his training priciples. I am just curious and would like to expand my knowledge on weight training and see what I could learn. I am a follwer of Arthur Jones but would also like to see if theres more to learn from Vince as I have heard good things about him but dont actually know.. So if anyone knows where I could get a book written by him or articles please just leave me a link it would be appreciated.

Thanks Dave
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Mark S

Dave Price wrote:
Hi I was wondering if anyone knows if Vince Gironda has ever written a book on his training priciples. I am just curious and would like to expand my knowledge on weight training and see what I could learn. I am a follwer of Arthur Jones but would also like to see if theres more to learn from Vince as I have heard good things about him but dont actually know.. So if anyone knows where I could get a book written by him or articles please just leave me a link it would be appreciated.

Thanks Dave


Hi Dave

try here

http://www.ironguru.com/...35/Default.aspx
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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

Don't waste your money or your time , Gironda had nothing to say that wasn't part of the mainstream high volume training , the most " contraversial " thing he said involved keeping the waist small in order to emphasize a V taper , such as he could display due to a small waist and narrow hips. In other words he was simply another bullshit artist with good genetics.

Bill
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bdog

I agree Bill. I always thought Gironda was a little cheesey
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Butters

Bill Sekerak wrote:
In other words he was simply another bullshit artist with good genetics.


Actually Gironda himself had only average genetics for BBing. He had a small frame and was an expert at creating symmetry and an illusion of size. He was an expert at contest prep when it was not something people thought about too deeply.

Gironda's principles have some things in common with Jones' HIT like an emphasis on rest, recovery, and intense workouts. He just had a broader definition of intensity than Jones.

To the OP: Yes, Vince did publish a book called "The Wild Physique" in the early 80s. It isn't nearly complete as his training courses go. You might do better to purchase his individual courses rather than the book.

Also checkout the website www.vincesgym.com

We've also had a discussion going about Vince's training princles at Iron Online for the past month in a dedicated forum. Lots of guys there used to train at his gym. www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/showforum.php?fid/55/keyword/Vince+Gironda/
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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

Butters wrote:
Bill Sekerak wrote:
In other words he was simply another bullshit artist with good genetics.


Actually Gironda himself had only average genetics for BBing. He had a small frame and was an expert at creating symmetry and an illusion of size. He was an expert at contest prep when it was not something people thought about too deeply.

Gironda's principles have some things in common with Jones' HIT like an emphasis on rest, recovery, and intense workouts. He just had a broader definition of intensity than Jones.

To the OP: Yes, Vince did publish a book called "The Wild Physique" in the early 80s. It isn't nearly complete as his training courses go. You might do better to purchase his individual courses rather than the book.

Also checkout the website www.vincesgym.com

We've also had a discussion going about Vince's training princles at Iron Online for the past month in a dedicated forum. Lots of guys there used to train at his gym. www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/showforum.php?fid/55/keyword/Vince+Gironda/


Gironda at first praised Arthur as ,in Vinces' own words , " a messiah of muscle " shortly thereafter he viscously attacked Arthur and Nautilus machines on very dubious grounds. I conjecture that he had " faith " in Arthur ,but really didn't have a clue as to what Arthur was developing , and perhaps he found he couldn't cash in simply by kissing Arthurs' ass.

Vince had very wide shoulders, a very small waist and very narrow hips all of which are genetic endowments to a great extent. Just because he wasn't as big as Arnold doesn't mean he wasn't " gifted " to some extent.

Bill
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HamsFitness

Dave Price wrote:
Hi I was wondering if anyone knows if Vince Gironda has ever written a book on his training priciples. I am just curious and would like to expand my knowledge on weight training and see what I could learn. I am a follwer of Arthur Jones but would also like to see if theres more to learn from Vince as I have heard good things about him but dont actually know.. So if anyone knows where I could get a book written by him or articles please just leave me a link it would be appreciated.

Thanks Dave


unleasing the wild physique

do not dismiss what respected people say, 99% of what they say may be tosh but if you get one gem that works a treat for you or one pearl of wisdom that strikes home then you are a winner.

different things spark thoughts for different people.
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Acerimmer1

Bill Sekerak wrote:
Don't waste your money or your time , Gironda had nothing to say that wasn't part of the mainstream high volume training , the most " contraversial " thing he said involved keeping the waist small in order to emphasize a V taper , such as he could display due to a small waist and narrow hips. In other words he was simply another bullshit artist with good genetics.

Bill


Who was also able to empart his genetic gift to others via a process of osmosis in your opinion no doubt. Which obviously explains his success as a trainer.
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medici

Spain

Gitonda was tops for his time, indeed well ahead of his time both in training and nutrition. His gym fairly well dominated bodybuilding in the mid 60s while his training methods are rich in insights for sculpting the physique - and he recognized bodybuilding to be the art of creating an illusion from one's raw stock of material.

Christian Thibaudeau's The Gironda System on T-Nation.com offers some interesting insight and a distillation of some of the Iron Guru's methods. The Wild Physique was coauthored with Bob Kennedy of Muscle Mag International and Reps.
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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

Acerimmer1 wrote:
Bill Sekerak wrote:
Don't waste your money or your time , Gironda had nothing to say that wasn't part of the mainstream high volume training , the most " contraversial " thing he said involved keeping the waist small in order to emphasize a V taper , such as he could display due to a small waist and narrow hips. In other words he was simply another bullshit artist with good genetics.

Bill

Who was also able to empart his genetic gift to others via a process of osmosis in your opinion no doubt. Which obviously explains his success as a trainer.


Many people have learned to exploit gifted people to make themselves famous as experts in many different feilds, but I think it is much easier to manipulate bb in general.

In my opinion Girondas' so called training principles are worthless and the occasional instance where he is right, was something he ripped off from somebody else. I suggest that nobody should waste there hard earned money on anything written by this character.

Bill
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Dave Price

New Jersey, USA

Hey I understnd what you are saying how bb is manipulated but maybe Gironda's principles may work. I am just trying to keep a open mind. When I first found out about Arthur Jones and Ellington Darden I was so sure about them either. However I researched muhc about the two and have tried many of their principles and I beleive them to be ok.

Maybe there is somthing to be learned from Vince Gironda. I don't really know for sure but hopefully he's not like Joe Weider just trying to make money but I will later find out.
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Butters

Bill Sekerak wrote:
Gironda at first praised Arthur as ,in Vinces' own words , " a messiah of muscle " shortly thereafter he viscously attacked Arthur and Nautilus machines on very dubious grounds. I conjecture that he had " faith " in Arthur ,but really didn't have a clue as to what Arthur was developing , and perhaps he found he couldn't cash in simply by kissing Arthurs' ass.


If there was ever anyone in BBing not interested in cashing in it was Vince. He simply wanted to run his gym and help people out as best he could through his courses. He never had flashy marketing or made outlandish promises so they would sell better. He was not the type to kiss someone's ass because of what he could get out of them. He called Arnold a fat ass when he first met him. If he ever made any on the record comments about Jones and Nautiuls I would to read them, but I've read a lot of Vince's stuff and have never seen any comments he made.

I think it's fair to say that Vince contributed more to BBing than Jones ever did.
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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

Butters wrote:
I think it's fair to say that Vince contributed more to BBing than Jones ever did.


I had to read that comment a couple times.

Very Interesting.

As far as BodyBuilding, what "did" Arthur Jones contribute?

While I know AJ wanted to blow Weider, Lurie, and Muscle Mag Bob Kennedy away, what did he really leave to BodyBuilding?
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Ciccio

Butters wrote:
Bill Sekerak wrote:
Gironda at first praised Arthur as ,in Vinces' own words , " a messiah of muscle " shortly thereafter he viscously attacked Arthur and Nautilus machines on very dubious grounds. I conjecture that he had " faith " in Arthur ,but really didn't have a clue as to what Arthur was developing , and perhaps he found he couldn't cash in simply by kissing Arthurs' ass.


If there was ever anyone in BBing not interested in cashing in it was Vince. He simply wanted to run his gym and help people out as best he could through his courses. He never had flashy marketing or made outlandish promises so they would sell better. He was not the type to kiss someone's ass because of what he could get out of them. He called Arnold a fat ass when he first met him. If he ever made any on the record comments about Jones and Nautiuls I would to read them, but I've read a lot of Vince's stuff and have never seen any comments he made.

I think it's fair to say that Vince contributed more to BBing than Jones ever did.


What was this contribution of Vince exactly? A few fancy free weight exercises (of which many work very good, I don't deny that) and unusual diet guidelines?
And you think that's more then AJ's contribution?

Franco


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Audley

New Hampshire, USA

Ciccio wrote:
Butters wrote:
Bill Sekerak wrote:
Gironda at first praised Arthur as ,in Vinces' own words , " a messiah of muscle " shortly thereafter he viscously attacked Arthur and Nautilus machines on very dubious grounds. I conjecture that he had " faith " in Arthur ,but really didn't have a clue as to what Arthur was developing , and perhaps he found he couldn't cash in simply by kissing Arthurs' ass.


If there was ever anyone in BBing not interested in cashing in it was Vince. He simply wanted to run his gym and help people out as best he could through his courses. He never had flashy marketing or made outlandish promises so they would sell better. He was not the type to kiss someone's ass because of what he could get out of them. He called Arnold a fat ass when he first met him. If he ever made any on the record comments about Jones and Nautiuls I would to read them, but I've read a lot of Vince's stuff and have never seen any comments he made.

I think it's fair to say that Vince contributed more to BBing than Jones ever did.

What was this contribution of Vince exactly? A few fancy free weight exercises (of which many work very good, I don't deny that) and unusual diet guidelines?
And you think that's more then AJ's contribution?

Franco






I have a copy of the Wild Physique. Vince mentions the use of different techniques, even Mike Mentzer's, without insulting them. I speak with Ron Kosloff of NSP Research Nutrition on a fairly regular basis. Ron was Vince's top students and still teaches Vince's methods and sells his courses and books. Ron told me that Vince was a believer in "knowing thyself". Vince would teach you what he knew, but then left it up to you to use what works for you. Ron says his workouts are very short and hard, certainly not HVT as we know it. Vince was way ahead of his time in the getting ripped dept. He also advocated that you "work out like a sprinter"; hard, fast short workouts,trying to keep the time between sets to 10-15 seconds, 30-45 minutes tops. He did advocate working out on consecutive days, but he would send people home from his gym if he thought they were overtraining.

Granted Vince's diet recommendations seemed a bit strange (up to 3 dozen eggs a day while building muscle), and his exercises were different ( I do use some as a change up )but overall his approach made major contributions to the bodybuilding world. He certainly did not kiss anyone's ass. Vince was a trainer of the stars (many are mentioned in his book), but towards the end of his life his gym was closed mostly because he was looked on as "too old school" for the up and coming stars of Hollywood, and he did not market his gym very well. Vince was a trainer, not a business man.

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Acerimmer1

Ciccio wrote:

And you think that's more then AJ's contribution?

Franco




As I heard it Arthur took the machines from Vince and added a CAM. And the HIT training system was very similar to the old York Barbell routine.
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Acerimmer1

Audley wrote:
Ciccio wrote:
Butters wrote:
Bill Sekerak wrote:
Gironda at first praised Arthur as ,in Vinces' own words , " a messiah of muscle " shortly thereafter he viscously attacked Arthur and Nautilus machines on very dubious grounds. I conjecture that he had " faith " in Arthur ,but really didn't have a clue as to what Arthur was developing , and perhaps he found he couldn't cash in simply by kissing Arthurs' ass.


If there was ever anyone in BBing not interested in cashing in it was Vince. He simply wanted to run his gym and help people out as best he could through his courses. He never had flashy marketing or made outlandish promises so they would sell better. He was not the type to kiss someone's ass because of what he could get out of them. He called Arnold a fat ass when he first met him. If he ever made any on the record comments about Jones and Nautiuls I would to read them, but I've read a lot of Vince's stuff and have never seen any comments he made.

I think it's fair to say that Vince contributed more to BBing than Jones ever did.

What was this contribution of Vince exactly? A few fancy free weight exercises (of which many work very good, I don't deny that) and unusual diet guidelines?
And you think that's more then AJ's contribution?

Franco






I have a copy of the Wild Physique. Vince mentions the use of different techniques, even Mike Mentzer's, without insulting them. I speak with Ron Kosloff of NSP Research Nutrition on a fairly regular basis. Ron was Vince's top students and still teaches Vince's methods and sells his courses and books. Ron told me that Vince was a believer in "knowing thyself". Vince would teach you what he knew, but then left it up to you to use what works for you. Ron says his workouts are very short and hard, certainly not HVT as we know it. Vince was way ahead of his time in the getting ripped dept. He also advocated that you "work out like a sprinter"; hard, fast short workouts,trying to keep the time between sets to 10-15 seconds, 30-45 minutes tops. He did advocate working out on consecutive days, but he would send people home from his gym if he thought they were overtraining.

Granted Vince's diet recommendations seemed a bit strange (up to 3 dozen eggs a day while building muscle), and his exercises were different ( I do use some as a change up )but overall his approach made major contributions to the bodybuilding world. He certainly did not kiss anyone's ass. Vince was a trainer of the stars (many are mentioned in his book), but towards the end of his life his gym was closed mostly because he was looked on as "too old school" for the up and coming stars of Hollywood, and he did not market his gym very well. Vince was a trainer, not a business man.



Coincedentally that was about the time the buff action hero faded out of the film industry.
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jack32

gironda was very much into hit type programs.

his 3 x 8 program involves 2 lighter warm up sets followed by 1 hard work set of, you guessed it, 8 reps.

he was his own man and didn't sell out to anyone and hardly was in the game to get rich.
in fact, when he died he owed some money to creditors.

he preached failure, failure of form.
he also preached isolation exercises.

he abhorred drug users and wasn't interested in just gaining weight. it was a lot more than that.

his 4 sides to a muscle program ( 4 sets of 4 different movements w/ no rest between exercises)certainly was hit training.

he knew the importance of rest and openly suggested his students to train for 3 weeks, very hard and intense, and then rest for 1 week to restore the cns.

according to a fellow who vince trained,vince thought hit was a good way to workout.
he just recognized that the average trainee didn't possess the concentration or mental toughness to perform 1 set the RIGHT WAY, without cheating his arse off.

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AI1963

There seems to be a cult of personality about Gironda that inspires "believers". He obviously walked the walk with regard to his own physique as well as apparently trained quite a few to good or great results. But...

I think all of that may have been due to his being extremely motivated as well as having the ability to motivate others. I'm not so sure Vince was the genius others take him to be.

I have a real problem with statements by Gironda that he was a "mystic" who had "seen miracles". More than a few of his statements do not seem to indicate that he was someone who was especially logical or scientific in his approach. Kim Wood had posted a few things about Gironda on this board that only reinforced my feelings about this.`

I had spoken to Ron once; seems like a very nice guy. But a red flag went up when he talked about how Arnold had had calf and bicep "transplants" (his word, not mine). So, forty years ago, Arnold somehow had his physique surgically enhanced in a way that resulted in the appearance of rock hard muscle, results far superior to anything available today?

I'm sorry but when someone says and believes something so patently ridiculous, I view everything else they say with suspicion.
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Butters

jack32 wrote:
his 4 sides to a muscle program ( 4 sets of 4 different movements w/ no rest between exercises) was the precursor to pre- exhaust and HIT.

to say he's a copycat is ridiculous.
he actually wrote a very nice article about AJ in iron man and thought HIT was a good way to workout.
he just recognized that the average trainee didn't possess the concentration or mental toughness to perform 1 set the RIGHT WAY, without cheating his arse off.



Again I go back to my original statement in the thread that Vince's principles have more in common with HIT than anyone would normally think.

Sure he had programs that are high volume relative to HIT like the 8x8 or 6x6, but he did stress increasing intensity at each workout. The only difference is he would do that through either decreasing rest time between sets, or increasing the weight.
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Landau

Florida, USA

Acerimmer1 wrote:
Ciccio wrote:

And you think that's more then AJ's contribution?

Franco




As I heard it Arthur took the machines from Vince and added a CAM. And the HIT training system was very similar to the old York Barbell routine.


You heard it wrong. Generically, (Jones) HIT has historical lineage to anything from Jowett to Liederman to Paschall and to Calvert. Then it was a culmination of decades of Arthur's personal logical observation gleaned from zoolology, physics, physiology and more. Arthur built his machines from scratch and they had literally nothing to do from anything remotely related to Gironda.

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Michael Petrella

Ontario, CAN

If you can't learn something from "the wild physique" or the countless other VG articles then you have stopped growing in terms of bodybuilding knowledge.

VG and AJ were both genius. Instead of puttin them at different end of the spectrum, a closer look will show they were probably just holding there own pieces to the puzzle that is bodybuilding.

Wait for the book "muslce smoke and mirrors" to come out by Randy Roach. He devotes a whole chapter to showing the relation between VG and AJ and how there works do somewhat intermingle.

A very cool point that Randy pointed out to me is that AJ was very good a picking out those with genetic potential. Most of the people he trained ie: football players, already somewhat established bodybuilders, probably had a physiology that would work well with less volume.

VG trained alot of celebrities without such genetic advantages and used a different program to still get very good results from his clients.

Different strokes for different folks.

Just one more thing. Im not saying Arnold did or didn't have calf and bicep implants but look at some of the pictures of him lately where he hasn't been in shape and is clearly down in size compared to his competitive days.

It seems like his biceps and calfs have not gone down with the rest of his body. Also the peek on Arnold right bicep as everyone knows is just differnt from every other bodybuilder in the world. Also I haven't seen anyone yet who can just go from okay calfs to great ones. In almost all cases they are there before training.

Call it crazy but is it really to crazy to think of a world were someone like Joe Wieder could spring for a surgery to keep his top prospect on top?? Little food for thought.

Michael
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Growl

Guys,

Even the surgeries now days look like shit. So, Arnold had aliens perform this perfect surgery 30-40 years ago? He improved his calves because he would not accept them like they were. And these implants must help him move an awful lot of weight on the calf machine.

He is a one of a kind human being. I don?t like him but I do learn from him. As far as his arms go, you can see them getting better and better throughout the years. You cannot contract a surgical implant. Did you see ?Pumping Iron??

Jeff
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Michael Petrella

Ontario, CAN

I can move a ton of weight on calf raises and due to my extremly high insertions my calfs still look very small. I have people in my gym who literally move a quarter of the weight I do in calf raises but just have more mass and better shape in there calfs.

Not all implant surgerys are bad. You just hear more about the bad ones, Because they are so glaring. There are plastic surgeons who are very good, and some of the brass of bodybuilding could easily afford them. Im not telling you to believe me but there is alot of messed up stuff in bodybuilding history and Arnold with implants wouldn't even hit the top 5.

Michael
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eintology

California, USA

AI1963 wrote:
There seems to be a cult of personality about Gironda that inspires "believers".


As a truely unbiased and objective thinker, would you be willing to make the same claim for Arthur Jones?

Or do you see this ability to attract a fervent small group following; which is the active portion in the definition of a cult, as being a quality more or less unique to Vince Gironda, in the bodybuilding world?

And while we are on the subject, let me ask you this, what do you see as the basic need in promoting Arthur Jones -- beyond what his contributions were to the field of bodybuilding, in a manner that most anyone; or I should say most anyone not professionally connected to Arthur Jones, would deem as, excessive?

Erik
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