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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
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must be done . . . and quickly."
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Thoughts on HIT Acceptance
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Landau

Florida, USA

Think about it this way. This Discussion Site is always subjected to several detractors, always seeming to more or less say what we do is Taboo. If there is let's say a Pilates Discussion, or say a Swiss/Stability Ball Discussion, Spinning, or even Tae Bo - would they even consider people wandering over to their site, citing Fraud? (Which is what they really are) "Fat Chance," and their claims are as outrageous as it gets.

HIT is just plain logical when applied properly and appropriately and yet "we" have to tolerate all the slings and arrows - "from those that know better - Sure!" From athletics, bodybuilding, improved bodily function, and rehab - this is the best approach bar none (when delivered within reason). But heaven forbid we enter the vacuum of "scientific literature" that says stay out, you are a threat to our existance (bubble).

Bottom line is when you deliver that exact minimal overload effect and then let the body go about its way, it is by far the most responsible approach. How much you squat, deadlift, or bench refers simply to a particular sport. Rubber Bands belong at Staples, and employing fast reps is simply a silly pipedream. Arthur Jones run of articles/chapters in Total Fitness - The Nautilus Way, more or less tells the story.
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bdog

I think the main reasons why people don't do HIT are:

1) They don't do it properly, i.e. with the proper intensity

2) If they do do it properly, they can't handle the pain.

Point #2 is a huge reason. I wish people would just admit that they can't handle the intensity and that is why they quit HIT. It works and it works quite remarkably...just look at Dr. Darden's case studies and many others.

Bryan
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Growl

What is the point?
Shall we disallow any contribution from somebody who is not adhering to a particular brand of HIT that you deem as acceptable?
Is Mentzer ok? How about JReppers? What rep speeds will be allowed? Will somebody give us a definition of HIT whereby we have a tool to determine who is and who is not HIT? I would appreciate it if that definition would encompass the Nautilus Bulletins and Darden's current books.
Who will be our leader just in case something needs to be amended because A.J. changed his views and what if something needs changing?
I apologize for all the questions but a lot of points were brought up and I'm glad they were.
Anyone interested in an actual discussion?

P.S. Shall we not allow any band training as well? I've employed them in the past within a single set protocol.

Jeff
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marcrph

Portugal

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- MARK TWAIN

Do not give your heart to all the words that people may speak! -- KING SOLOMON

This is Dr. Darden's website. He calls the shots as to what is acceptable on this site.

Dr. Darden sets a good example on this issue, and just ignores what you refer to as "detractors." This is patience manifested in wisdom. I simply NEVER reply to rude, assuming, detracting comments from members. You realize of course, that some of the folks posting on this board are not what they claim they are. On the other hand, anyone can walk up to me at the pharmacy, or you at your facility and ask questions, and yesterday, 2 women did ask questions. These women just want results, no matter what you want to call it HIT, Superslow, Slowburn, Eccentric Edge, or whatever.

David, simply IGNORE these folks, as attention, and profitless talk is all they want. They will leave the greatest training discussion board with fiery embers on their heads wondering why these HITers will not argue with them anymore.
Instead of profitless talk, why not contribute along the lines of your once weekly workouts, as I personally find this quite intriguing. I wish you would contribute more along this important subject. You seem to have it ALL...great facility, great machines, great training principles. TELL us about this. We will love it.






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sgsims1

Not to get too philosophical on this subject, but it is interesting how anyone who institutes logic or rationality in any kind of discussion or choice is often derided by the majority of the population who choose to make their choices based on how they "feel". Ask any Objectivist how they are treated by the rest of the "God Fearing" population, and you'll see the same thing.

Heck, I choose to give up many things in life so that I can put my kid in a private school, as rational investigation has informed me that he will receive a sub-standard education in the public school system where we live, and yet I am constantly derided for "wasting my money" by my peers who would prefer to have a newer car and a larger house than pay for private school (and perhaps feel guilty about it?) Maybe I digress, but I believe that this phenomenon has a reach far greater than just our belief in this system of exercise.
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Robert Francis

New York, USA

bdog wrote:
I think the main reasons why people don't do HIT are:

1) They don't do it properly, i.e. with the proper intensity

2) ...

Bryan



There is another thread on here called "THANK YOU DAVID LANDAU" which I wrote a very long response to and then just didn't submit. My post consisted of my observations shadowing David for several days in Miami and having trained with him a half-dozen times or so in the last 15 years.

Words and phrases cannot adequately convey intensity or the bearing of an instructor who does this well. The man who started the thread admitted, when he was asked that he "...couldn't begin to tell". Sounds like he is copping out but I'll vouch for his "burn beyond comprehension" and that, yes, he will "need the full week for recouperation".

Delivering the kind of intensity discussed on these forums takes years of training every kind of person and the ability to exploit a wide range of exercise technique, but even THAT is not enough. Communicating instantly and exactly what is required and when is a rare thing and I've seen very few that can do it. Landau is one.

Without going into details, either train with Landau or watch him for 3 or 4 sessions and you will come away knowing at least one thing-HIT is not what you thought it was.
zand....

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goya

It may not only just have to do with intensity, but form.

Form is probably more important for HIT than HVT. You can do a lot of sets with light weights and mediocre form and not any feel pain, but you can't do that for HIT. So technique is paramount to getting the most out of it.

I suspect that some people do not get much out of HIT because they use poor form and therefore can not reach the proper intensity. These people become detractors.

When you do multiple exercises and mutiple sets with poor form and low intensity, statistically one of those sets is bound to be productive eventually.

With HIT, you only have one set, so you better not screw it up.

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sgsims1

zanderinst wrote:
bdog wrote:
I think the main reasons why people don't do HIT are:

1) They don't do it properly, i.e. with the proper intensity

2) ...

Bryan


There is another thread on here called "THANK YOU DAVID LANDAU" which I wrote a very long response to and then just didn't submit. My post consisted of my observations shadowing David for several days in Miami and having trained with him a half-dozen times or so in the last 15 years.

Words and phrases cannot adequately convey intensity or the bearing of an instructor who does this well. The man who started the thread admitted, when he was asked that he "...couldn't begin to tell". Sounds like he is copping out but I'll vouch for his "burn beyond comprehension" and that, yes, he will "need the full week for recouperation".

Delivering the kind of intensity discussed on these forums takes years of training every kind of person and the ability to exploit a wide range of exercise technique, but even THAT is not enough. Communicating instantly and exactly what is required and when is a rare thing and I've seen very few that can do it. Landau is one.

Without going into details, either train with Landau or watch him for 3 or 4 sessions and you will come away knowing at least one thing-HIT is not what you thought it was.
zand....



Well said, Zand...its hard to describe how when you are on the rep in a set where you feel you have nothing left, and the burn is in fact beyond comprehension, and then your trainer/partner says:

"NOW your set is beginning" (pretty sure it was Brett who threw that out several times during my workout!) You've got to be willing to try when you think you've got nothing left, to give at least a little more....

Steve

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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Growl wrote:
What is the point?
Shall we disallow any contribution from somebody who is not adhering to a particular brand of HIT that you deem as acceptable?
Is Mentzer ok? How about JReppers? What rep speeds will be allowed? Will somebody give us a definition of HIT whereby we have a tool to determine who is and who is not HIT? I would appreciate it if that definition would encompass the Nautilus Bulletins and Darden's current books...

P.S. Shall we not allow any band training as well? I've employed them in the past within a single set protocol.

Jeff


I'm totally with Jeff on this one. I'm ready to listen to different ideas and perhaps even try them out. At the very least I will hear out just about anyone.

IMO, the HIT umbrella is waaayyy bigger than some on this forum would allow. DoggCrapp, Heavy Duty, SS, Rogue/DC, J-Reps, Ult Rep --- it's all HIT to me.

We're all big boys here and can make up our own minds what works for us, or what we simply wouldn't even care to try.

We can flat-out have a problem with some people's interpretations such as the fast reps of Rogue/DC or Mentzer's extremes with decreasing workout frequency.
[EDIT: The Steve Holman X-treme workout I was referring to was NOT touted as HIT. I had to check my IronMan copy at home. My apologies for misrepresenting on the original post. SRR]

That's okay. No one has a gun on you making you do it a certain way.

I don't like Dave Draper's prescribed volume, but I do love his continued passion for the Iron Game. I've enjoyed employing opposing muscle super-sets a lot too.

I don't like Clarence Bass' adherence to or insistence on Olympic lifting as part of his regimen, though I find him a wise and reasonable man on just about every other topic.

Everyone has something to offer.
_________________________

While large differences of opinion on "what is HIT?" can be tolerated, what I think cannot be tolerated is the hijacking of threads.

This shit has got to stop. We need a mechanism to recognize when it happens and try stop it quickly, w/o bias.

I don't know the answer there yet, but will be thinking of ideas.

Later,
Scott

One Last Thing: To me this site is about the expansion of knowledge, not the compression or supression of thinking. Don't box me in.
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Ellington Darden

Scott,

As long as I'm associated with this Web site, you and other participants will NEVER be boxed in.

Ellington
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Growl

Long live Dr. Darden!!!
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All Pro

Ellington Darden wrote:
Scott,

As long as I'm associated with this Web site, you and other participants will NEVER be boxed in.

Ellington


Thank you Dr Darden for having stated it like that. Being that I'm not a bodybuilder I'm used to feeling like a fish out of water on most of these discussion boards.

But I keep coming back because I feel for me it is a healthy exchange of ideas. It forces me to question what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. So for me the free flow of ideas and opinions is a win, win situation.
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Robert Francis

New York, USA

Dr. Darden will live forever.
Scott, get back in your box.

Everyone on the floor with hands where I can see them.

I'm hijacking this thread.
z....
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dhartnet

New Hampshire, USA

I'm one who doesn't train in the traditional HIT method, but I find the info here very valuable. I consider David and Robert friends, and I cant wait to see them in June. They know a heck of a lot more than I, when it comes to exercise science, hence, reason why I'm here. I train 3 times a week, very intense, built around the Powerlifting movements. (With an extra grip day thrown in there, and of course cardio days). I would never downplay anyones methods, because I know what I do, to most is probably off the wall. Anyways, the goal in sight is probably the same to us all (health, strength, etc.) and I think we can all learn from one another, whether we agree on methods or not..
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coomo

With HIT, you only have one set, so you better not screw it up.

That is exactly how i feel every time I start a set!
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Landau

Florida, USA

I really don't have a problem with what Mentzer delivered. I have thoroughly enjoyed his audios as they were once eloquently delivered. I just don't need a "so called" expert or experts with an agenda telling me the same ole "chit" I have often heard before.

I have had very personal positive interaction with Arthur, Ell, Jim Flanagan, Terry Carter, R. Francis, Drew Baye, and Coach Bradford/others. These guys lived HIT and have given me the reason to continue to be me and feel good about what I try to deliver. This is a site to inspire others of the like to carry on.

We want those to continue the real Classic HIT and when others come in and hijack our efforts, well that really ruins it for those that we want to inspire. On another simular site has turned into a generic "dude - show me what you can lift site..." I could care less about that, I really entered this field to help people and HIT has helped me realize that.

To see as someone recently said, "HIT is dead," well I don't quite buy that and I want it to do well simply because IT DOES HELP PEOPLE!
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All Pro


We want those to continue the real Classic HIT and when others come in and hijack our efforts, well that really ruins it for those that we want to inspire.


Classic HIT?
Per AJ's bulletins:
1-3 sets
lift the weight as fast as possible while still maintaining good form.
Not always to failure.


To see as someone recently said, "HIT is dead," well I don't quite buy that and I want it to do well simply because IT DOES HELP PEOPLE!


Erm, I said that. If you want to revive it read my answer to 'classic' HIT.
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Ciccio

All Pro wrote:

We want those to continue the real Classic HIT and when others come in and hijack our efforts, well that really ruins it for those that we want to inspire.

Classic HIT?
Per AJ's bulletins:
1-3 sets
lift the weight as fast as possible while still maintaining good form.
Not always to failure.


To see as someone recently said, "HIT is dead," well I don't quite buy that and I want it to do well simply because IT DOES HELP PEOPLE!

Erm, I said that. If you want to revive it read my answer to 'classic' HIT.


All Pro,

stop it please! That's not the right thread to start the 10th discussion about rep speed.

Others,

I wholeheartly agree with David.
But I also agree with Scott. I have no problem to read and learn from other schools of thought but this doesn't mean I don't get fired up when unreasonable claims are made and outright stupid advices are given on THIS site (and all this packed with arrogance - and too much blubber), which should be all about HIT an more specifically Darden's HIT.

Franco

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Paul25

Wasn't you Allnut that quoted 'Hit Was Dead'??? Then why are you on this forum then son?
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Benjamin Dover

Landau wrote:
We want those to continue the real Classic HIT and when others come in and hijack our efforts, well that really ruins it for those that we want to inspire. On another simular site has turned into a generic "dude - show me what you can lift site..." I could care less about that, I really entered this field to help people and HIT has helped me realize that.


Questions:

Where do you go when you have no idea of how to proceed with an approach to exercise? Who do you turn to for quality advice?

Do you go to a "mainstream" site where you'll be given counterproductive, misleading and sometimes dangerous advice? Or do you come here, where you'll be given counterproductive, misleading and sometimes dangerous advice...with a few gems thrown in every so often?

What should you do? Seriously? How do you separate the good from the bad? If you are desperately thin, desperately overweight or desperately lacking knowledge, your head is spinning.

What is sooooo wrong with slow, dose-response prescribed exercise? Why do people feel the need to "improve" it? I'm all for questioning things, after all, HIT is based on a foundation of questioning the mainstream. BUT what if the questions have already been answered? Can we really move forwards by taking steps backwards?

Arthur Jones stood for a specific set of principles that evolved over a period of decades. From my perspective, I hope that "Classic HIT" doesn't become polluted by ideas that he literally discarded years ago. My fear is that HIT will become unrecognizable and it's a real shame.

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Drew Baye

Florida, USA

JamesT wrote:

Where do you go when you have no idea of how to proceed with an approach to exercise? Who do you turn to for quality advice?


The New High Intensity Training

The New Bodybuilding for Old School Results

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Drew Baye

Florida, USA

JamesT wrote:

What is sooooo wrong with slow, dose-response prescribed exercise? Why do people feel the need to "improve" it?


1. They mistakenly believe they know better.

2. They're trying to sell you something or position themselves as an expert.
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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

In my estimation HIT would have far greater acceptance if it embraced a wide variety of serious HIT based trainer styles. Each seasoned HIT trainer has a system and style they work on. Hopefully they never stop trying to add to it by working with others and absorbing there best. However, in my experience many...many top level HIT based trainers do the opposite in practice though they may claim different in talk.

HIT needs to stop being so skeptical and be 'active-minded' instead. If you are actually so reasonable and logical you don't need to discard things, deride them or ignore them just because there is so much B.S. out there. Knee jerk reactions have no place in science. We all have our agenda's and no ones trumps another's, we should mind our own private business but still be active about learning from each other.

I have long lost count over the years of how many die hard HIT fans have told me something is crap or fake only to find out they knew literally nothing or next to nothing about the item they criticized. Sure, the main stream is the opposite with there open-minded accept any old nonsense approach if it sounds fun and could make a buck but come on ? the opposite extreme is easily as bad, sad and not helpful at all.

Regards,
Andrew
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summaHIT

Ontario, CAN

I posted a few times a year or so ago and here I go again. Don't have a stroke folks.

My two sense is that the majority of trainees around the world would benefit more from focusing on one hard set and not multiple sets using inferior intensity. HIT fits this to a tee.
The problem however with people who are not in the average category is that HIT does not make you as fast, strong, or big as some other protocols. Obviously any exercise is better than none but there are different types of lifting programs more geared towards specific goals which HIT does not address. To be so ILLOGICAL and state that it is the best way to train PERIOD is purely ignorant.
I am not really sure what the arguments are always about. If you guys are personal trainers and want your clients to experience gains in the least amount of time then HIT is probably the most efficient way for you and the client to get things done. I truly believe this.
If you are training a track athlete and you are using light loads because of reps/time and focus on very slow movements I believe you are not training them appropriately.

The HIT misguided belief of being the end all and be all of exercise is why it is not accepted. It is also the results which people get. If I wanted to increase my bench press do I do 8-12 reps taking 6-10 seconds each to complete or do I do multiple sets of singles/doubles/triples lifting as fast as I can?
Also,from what I read I think some of you are too extreme in the application of HIT where it doesn't even really resemble what I first started reading by Dr. Darden in the 1980's and even more so now! It's your way or the highway.
The truth will set you free.
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Benjamin Dover

Andrew,

Being "active minded" means being judgemental. The purpose of being "active minded" is to literally cultivate the ability to make the right choices instead of the wrong ones based on logic, reason and rational thought.

Your suggestion is to cultivate a state of "open mindedness", which can be dangerous. It is wrong and unethical (especially when the welfare of others is in YOUR hands) to grant plausibility to any idea that's kicking around just because it's sold under the HIT umbrella. If an individual attempts to make a legitimate assessment of an idea, and it turns out to be nonsense, I for one will not take the politically correct stance and say "well, yeah, it's ok...". That will achieve nothing.

If people really have the desire to perform fast reps, balancing acts with bands and chains or bizarre, exotic exercises that appear to have no good purpose...go ahead! Just don't "sell" it to everyone else.

And as a side note, would you, Mr Shortt troll a "Body Pump" forum for months on end, trying to sell transparent services to people who really couldn't care less?

Anyway, this isn't an attack on you, just my honest opinion.
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