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Determine the Length of Your Workouts

Evaluate Your Progress

Keep Warm-Up in Perspective


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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

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Yes

This is a question for the "old school" HIT guys(like Dr. Darden and Mr. Landau and others). I'm asking this beause I want their opninion. So if anyone feels like promoting "Rouge HIT" or anything else as the ultimate in high intensity, do that somewhere else - please.

So, what I would like to ask is... Given the the proper volume and frequency, how hard should you push yourself to get GREAT results. And I don't mean good results, I mean great like most people would not believe.

And, we are talking about someone who's prepared to ge there no matter what it takes.

I know it's difficult to explain, but please give it a try.
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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

Yes wrote:
This is a question for the "old school" HIT guys(like Dr. Darden and Mr. Landau and others). I'm asking this beause I want their opninion. So if anyone feels like promoting "Rouge HIT" or anything else as the ultimate in high intensity, do that somewhere else - please.

So, what I would like to ask is... Given the the proper volume and frequency, how hard should you push yourself to get GREAT results. And I don't mean good results, I mean great like most people would not believe.

And, we are talking about someone who's prepared to ge there no matter what it takes.

I know it's difficult to explain, but please give it a try.



Hi Yes,

Please don't think this is off topic as it is "Old School" all the way.

If I was attempting to create the maximum stimulus from a SSTF, I would use the following elements:

First I would make sure I had reached a rather high conditioning level of SSTF sets and loads.

I would then use a set extension that is similar to "Rest/Pause".

This would mean, you perform the set until normal failure, then rest or pause, but only long enough to allow the performance of one more rep. I would repeat that process attempting to achieve an additional 3-5 reps (this will vary depending on the exercise and equipment available)

The idea here is that all the reps you perform in a set are staging or prepatory reps to reach that single "target" rep of failure. By pausing just long enough to allow an additional rep, and then another and so on, you are able to harvest "more" of the "Target Reps".

Progress in this type of set should be slow and continuous. It allows you to create a much greater "overall" stimulus than a single failing rep.

If you have a partner then your next area of focus, could be adding (manually applied) extra eccentric load on these "extended reps"

Adding "extra" eccentric force is far better than the partner adding you in the concentric and you simply slowing the eccentric. That is still underloaded if you use that method.

These techniques (IMO) offer the best method to create the maximum stimulus in a single set.

Hope that helps.
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Yes

BIO-FORCE wrote:
Please don't think this is off topic as it is "Old School" all the way.

It's OK, looks like good solid tips, so thank you for that!

However, not quite what I was after. See, the problem is that following theese kinds of advice, different people will end up with different results. That's because their idea of what failure is, and their ability to push themselves, will differ.

So what i'm after is more like how much real effort should be put into the workouts. You know; should I go till I pass out, or just throw up a couple of times, or step back a little bit further?
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coomo

You should train till the individual muscle group splits open due to engorgement of blood,and you are covered in your own ,muscle ,tendons and ligaments.Im presently training in this fashion.However its hard on the recovery system,and the gym owners are not happy with the amount of blood that is ruining the carpet.Usually takes 3/4 months to recover,and the bandages tend to get in the way.JUST training till you pass out or merely vomit is for sissys.
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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

Yes wrote:
BIO-FORCE wrote:
Please don't think this is off topic as it is "Old School" all the way.

It's OK, looks like good solid tips, so thank you for that!

However, not quite what I was after. See, the problem is that following theese kinds of advice, different people will end up with different results. That's because their idea of what failure is, and their ability to push themselves, will differ.

So what i'm after is more like how much real effort should be put into the workouts. You know; should I go till I pass out, or just throw up a couple of times, or step back a little bit further?


Intensity is a transient element. That is, as you make progress 100% intensity also moves up the scale.

I think the only way to actually "judge or measure" is not if you vomit or pass out, but if the load and reps increase to that "first" failed rep.

The rest pause extension of the set, is for all intents, a second set or stage of the set, and the progress here is also something to record and try to improve (as in 1, 2, 3, or more)

The eccentric could actually be performed another way, if you wanted to go to eccentric failure, in that when the rest pause reps are no longer possible, a partner could assist in the concentric and you could perform the eccentric, but again, I would have the partner "add" appropriate eccentric load, and don't use the inital weight as an eccentric load to slow.

This is because, even under all this stress, the eccentric has economy. This means it will (because it is more efficient) allow the muscle to recover too much if all you try and do is slow the load. You need to have a load that will take a large effort, or you may not reach eccentric failure.

There is no way to describe "how hard" one must attempt to work. It is generally sufficient to suggest that you must reach failure both concentrically and then eccentrically and make progress each session so that you make a best personal effort, every session.

If you do so, (and do so continuously) then you will (are) making significant progress. This takes incredible mental drive and motivation.

I might also suggest that this level of stimulus should NOT be attempted more than 2 x a week and for some 1 x a week. (and if old like me once every 10 days) and I might also suggest a split routine, to keep the total systemic demands smaller, and thus recovery faster.

Splitting also reduces the mental effort so that you can maintain the highest, or a higher level over fewer exercises, rather than "running out of steam towards the end.
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Mr. Strong

If you think you could be working harder then most likely you need to. At the end of a workout you should feel pretty fatigued and soreness should follow later. You do not need to throw up or pass out.
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NewYorker

New York, USA

It is pretty obvious that you are putting us on.

If you want "great" results, and not "good" results, then choose your parents carefully. If you still want to puke or pass out, try some Weider shakes.
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cmg

I am not sure what Yes is asking about throwing up etc. however I have I believe about the same question. I did what Bio is talking about and am extremely sore due to that from just 3 exercises (leg press, chin, dip). So sore that I must take Motrin today. My spine actually is ackey. What is too hard? Can this actual hurt your body (I don't mean hurnia but joints, arthritis)?? I am 42 years old and can working out too hard hurt you? Again not too heavy (doing 1-2 reps) but too hard with normal reps (8-10) but doing the rest pause and negatives until ultimate failure???

Thanks,

Ron
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jastrain

throwing up is not a product of intensity. i have been doing high intensity workouts for 25 years. in the early days i did throw up a few times untill i realized that you can not workout with food in your stomach for at least 3 hours prior to your workout. since i have realized this i have never thrown up. i think jones was wrong about,"pukeing".

i do ultra high intensity workouts with no pukeing. i do each exercise to failure and beyond.when i reach failure i keep pushing upward till my muscle gives out and then i fight the negative all the way down. i fight with everything i have to stop the downward motion. this is extremely intense and yet my stomach is fine. do not workout for at least 3 hours if you have had any food and you will be fine

jason
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Gazz

Yes wrote:
This is a question for the "old school" HIT guys(like Dr. Darden and Mr. Landau and others). I'm asking this beause I want their opninion. So if anyone feels like promoting "Rouge HIT" or anything else as the ultimate in high intensity, do that somewhere else - please.

So, what I would like to ask is... Given the the proper volume and frequency, how hard should you push yourself to get GREAT results. And I don't mean good results, I mean great like most people would not believe.

And, we are talking about someone who's prepared to ge there no matter what it takes.

I know it's difficult to explain, but please give it a try.


Good question but not one that anyone here can answer without living with you 24 hrs a day 7 days a week.

Someone already touched on genetics and parents, also consider:

lifestyle
job
diet
sleep
rest

Mentzer wrote that in the training world there are extremes of recovery ability, the equivalent in the physical world of extremes of stature, being dwarf to giant. Everyone fits in somewhere on the scale, most veering toward average, but everyone is unique.

You probably don't want to hear this but its something that only you can find out. You need a starting point and so a good basic routine taken to positive failure two or three times a week seems a good place to be. Keep a good diet and work everything in as best you can to your lifestyle. Then adjust one variable at a time, beyond positive failure, NTF, extra rest, extra meal etc.

The methods quoted by Bio are sound, but I suspect from your question that you are relatively new to this, and personally I would say work on the foundations before you try to put the chimney stack in place.

Now throw adaptation into the equation and you'll become even more frustrated working on continually shifting sands.

Good luck
Gazz

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Yes

Mr. Intensity wrote:
If you think you could be working harder then most likely you need to. At the end of a workout you should feel pretty fatigued and soreness should follow later. You do not need to throw up or pass out.

I know I can work harder. But, I will only go there IF it's worth it. In that case it's also way more than "pretty fatigued and sore".

And, that's why i'm askin this question. Usually i'm holding back a little(still working to failure or very close). So when I for example see threads like the one about training with Mr. Landau, and how brutal that workout was, I keep asking myself how far you are supposed to go when doing HIT.

It's a sincere question by the way.
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Paul25

When you train YES do you go to failure or just before on every 'LIVE set' that you perform? You don't need to force your body to puke as that is just silly and how can that be good for the health of the body? Always train within your own indivdual recovery ability!
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Yes

Paul25 wrote:
When you train YES do you go to failure or just before on every 'LIVE set' that you perform? You don't need to force your body to puke as that is just silly and how can that be good for the health of the body? Always train within your own indivdual recovery ability!

Lately i've been trying heav(low rep) squats and deads, so I don't go to failure there and I allow myself a little more rest. On most other exercises I go to failure, or very close.

But I don't always train like this.

Failure, and puking, however, are bad measurments of intensity.
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Yes

BIO-FORCE wrote:
It is generally sufficient to suggest that [...] you make a best personal effort, every session.

That is, unfortunatley, too subjective. I'm interested in how much of the bodys total ability we are talking about. And I know this is damn hard but...

Let's try and put it this way... Do you know your limit? Aproximatley how close to your limit do you push?
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coomo

Yes wrote:

I know I can work harder. But, I will only go there IF it's worth it.


If you can work harder then you should.That is the essence of HIT.Take evey set to failure,at least positively.If there was a gun at your head,could yo have done more? i find it helpful to make up these imaginary situations in my mind.

I not sure if it affects my subconcious,but it may help train my thought process over time.If you dont truly believe that its worth taking every set to failure,then perhaps you are not totaly confident in the discipline of HIT?I am 100%committed to this method,so i adhere to it totally.

Sometimes i will feel some doubt as to my commitment to the effort,but these moments are rare and naturally i try and minimise them.Hope this helps.
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cmg

BIO-FORCE wrote:
Yes wrote:
This is a question for the "old school" HIT guys(like Dr. Darden and Mr. Landau and others). I'm asking this beause I want their opninion. So if anyone feels like promoting "Rouge HIT" or anything else as the ultimate in high intensity, do that somewhere else - please.

So, what I would like to ask is... Given the the proper volume and frequency, how hard should you push yourself to get GREAT results. And I don't mean good results, I mean great like most people would not believe.

And, we are talking about someone who's prepared to ge there no matter what it takes.

I know it's difficult to explain, but please give it a try.


Hi Yes,

Please don't think this is off topic as it is "Old School" all the way.

If I was attempting to create the maximum stimulus from a SSTF, I would use the following elements:

First I would make sure I had reached a rather high conditioning level of SSTF sets and loads.

I would then use a set extension that is similar to "Rest/Pause".

This would mean, you perform the set until normal failure, then rest or pause, but only long enough to allow the performance of one more rep. I would repeat that process attempting to achieve an additional 3-5 reps (this will vary depending on the exercise and equipment available)

The idea here is that all the reps you perform in a set are staging or prepatory reps to reach that single "target" rep of failure. By pausing just long enough to allow an additional rep, and then another and so on, you are able to harvest "more" of the "Target Reps".

Progress in this type of set should be slow and continuous. It allows you to create a much greater "overall" stimulus than a single failing rep.

If you have a partner then your next area of focus, could be adding (manually applied) extra eccentric load on these "extended reps"

Adding "extra" eccentric force is far better than the partner adding you in the concentric and you simply slowing the eccentric. That is still underloaded if you use that method.

These techniques (IMO) offer the best method to create the maximum stimulus in a single set.

Hope that helps.


Hi Bio,

Nice job with this. If I do Leg press, chin, dip in this exact manor every 5-6 days - could this be too demanding or too hard? Would this actually build muscle?

Regards,


Ron

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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

cmg wrote:
Hi Bio,

Nice job with this. If I do Leg press, chin, dip in this exact manor every 5-6 days - could this be too demanding or too hard? Would this actually build muscle?

Regards,


Ron



"Too Demanding" is an impossible question to answer. If I was 45 or 50, and ate clean, and got 8 hours in the arms of Morpheous, then it would likey be no problem, but there is NO way to discover your recoverablity.

A program like I suggested needs to be approached "progressively" and not JUMPED into full bore.

It is very close the the maximum stimulus from SSTF training (since it has a very intenses group of set "extenders" that are also HIGH INTENSITY.

If you start adding the elements and you don't feel ready for the next session, just rest and extra day, and make sure your sleeping and eating right.

You'll know its working if you make progress.

You'll know its too much if you don't make progress from still being too sore (DOMS)or fatigued.

You should feel strong and ready for the session, and the goal each WO is to make a "small" progression in each of your sets.

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Yes

coomo wrote:
Yes wrote:

I know I can work harder. But, I will only go there IF it's worth it.

If you can work harder then you should.That is the essence of HIT.Take evey set to failure,at least positively.If there was a gun at your head,could yo have done more? i find it helpful to make up these imaginary situations in my mind.

I not sure if it affects my subconcious,but it may help train my thought process over time.If you dont truly believe that its worth taking every set to failure,then perhaps you are not totaly confident in the discipline of HIT?I am 100%committed to this method,so i adhere to it totally.

Sometimes i will feel some doubt as to my commitment to the effort,but these moments are rare and naturally i try and minimise them.Hope this helps.

That literally means goind til you drop. I've been close, but never quite there. That kind of effort is really frightening.
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cmg

BIO-FORCE wrote:
cmg wrote:
Hi Bio,

Nice job with this. If I do Leg press, chin, dip in this exact manor every 5-6 days - could this be too demanding or too hard? Would this actually build muscle?

Regards,


Ron



"Too Demanding" is an impossible question to answer. If I was 45 or 50, and ate clean, and got 8 hours in the arms of Morpheous, then it would likey be no problem, but there is NO way to discover your recoverablity.

A program like I suggested needs to be approached "progressively" and not JUMPED into full bore.

It is very close the the maximum stimulus from SSTF training (since it has a very intenses group of set "extenders" that are also HIGH INTENSITY.

If you start adding the elements and you don't feel ready for the next session, just rest and extra day, and make sure your sleeping and eating right.

You'll know its working if you make progress.

You'll know its too much if you don't make progress from still being too sore (DOMS)or fatigued.

You should feel strong and ready for the session, and the goal each WO is to make a "small" progression in each of your sets.



Thanks again Bio,

3 sets knocked me out however it is tolerable. 3 days after still sore however decreasing so I will keep at this for a month or so to see if this SUPER high intensity - low volume workout works.

Regards,

Ron

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s153015

New Brunswick, CAN

Just my 2 cents.... but I think, the key is, is a person making progress over a long period of time. (in weight lifted and in body measurementns)... assuming that your program is life long as it should be, even good or mediocre results (provided they are in the right direction) as long as they are consistent or long term, will eventually be great? No?

I think you have to always monitor, volume, frequency AND intensity, as any one combination may be right for one person and not for for another, or even right for one person at one point in time, but not another (level of development, current sleep patternns, diet, age, outside stress, outside sports participation, etc.)
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