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azdrummer

Armed Forces - Europe

alright i've been doing DR.Dardens workout for about a month and i've noticed great gains and awesome weight lose. the question is what are the effect os using supplements like No-explode for pre workout drinks?? also will using protein like musclemilk help me lose weight too ??
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stevecollins33

azdrummer wrote:
alright i've been doing DR.Dardens workout for about a month and i've noticed great gains and awesome weight lose. the question is what are the effect os using supplements like No-explode for pre workout drinks?? also will using protein like musclemilk help me lose weight too ??


I don't know the products you refer to but I recommend a minimum of whey protein 30 minutes prior to exercise, during exercise and immediately after exercise, to take full advantage of the anabolic window (which, contrary to some is open during the workout also).

Anti-oxidants, glutamine, creatine, amino acids are useful additions. Some products are available containing these combined with whey (but can be expensive). I concoct my own using individual budget purchases and mixing up exactly the formula I require.
Remember though if you could only ever take one supplement it should be a good vitamin/mineral complex. That should be a priority.
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Crotalus

I've always been untrusting when it comes to supplements. My cynical nature which probably developed from reading the great 'MAD' magazine as a kid and than later on from Joe Weider's bullshit, has me believing 98% off anything you buy is totally useless.

But last month I did start taking one supplement and think I'll continue it. It's called NANO GREENS and doesn't promise 21" arms , doesn't have rabid gorillas on the container or a 'scientist' and his assistant in lab coats reading a chart to make it look like serious shit.

It does claim to provide ten servings of fruits and vegetables at a serving which I though was impressive. It doesn't taste bad - especially when I add a some lemon juice to it but I still have to close my eyes when I drink it. Nothing appealing to me about what looks like the rinse water when you hose off the bottom of your lawn mower.

I'm almost done this container and will order another since this month there was free shipping.
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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

stevecollins33 wrote:
azdrummer wrote:
alright i've been doing DR.Dardens workout for about a month and i've noticed great gains and awesome weight lose. the question is what are the effect os using supplements like No-explode for pre workout drinks?? also will using protein like musclemilk help me lose weight too ??

I don't know the products you refer to but I recommend a minimum of whey protein 30 minutes prior to exercise, during exercise and immediately after exercise, to take full advantage of the anabolic window (which, contrary to some is open during the workout also).

Anti-oxidants, glutamine, creatine, amino acids are useful additions. Some products are available containing these combined with whey (but can be expensive). I concoct my own using individual budget purchases and mixing up exactly the formula I require.
Remember though if you could only ever take one supplement it should be a good vitamin/mineral complex. That should be a priority.


I don't know how some guys can " eat " protein during a workout , I would puke my guts out if I tried it.
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stevecollins33

Bill Sekerak wrote:
I don't know how some guys can " eat " protein during a workout , I would puke my guts out if I tried it.


Bill
I was sceptical to begin with because I've only ever ingested water during exercise. I've still never tried any of these workout energy drinks either (and don't intend to).

Then I researched into the role amino acids play regarding energy, as well as recovery and compensation. As stated above, the upshot was a protein drink made up of budget supplements (100-200 kcals). From the first workout I've added reps and poundages. I also recover more quickly in between workouts.

I stress, however, the supplement addition coincided with an overhaul of my nutritional regime.

It then struck me what I was doing wasn't so revolutionary. I thought back to some of the old school chaps I worked out with in the past who used to sink a litre or so of full-fat milk during a workout!
Obviously I could see why the milk could make you puke but I'd be surprised if a 100 kcal whey-based drink did anything else other than allow you to train even harder.
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winstonnmccay

Ill have to repost an earlier reply of mine regarding supplementation:

several choices here depending on your lifestyle:

1. Meth
2. Crack
3. Heroin....
or if you prefer not to take drugs

4. Have kids (staying up late is a great calorie burner)
5. Get 2 more jobs
6. Find a job that is 20 miles away and walk there and back everyday...
or my personal favorite

7. Start a post dedicated to discussing HIT with Bioforce then stay up all night going in circles about the same damn thing, get a dictionary to look up all the words that dont exist, then check out every text book on exercise, physics and biology from the local college and try to find any proof for anything he says. Now if you do it right you will be so involved youll forget to eat.
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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

stevecollins33 wrote:
Bill Sekerak wrote:
I don't know how some guys can " eat " protein during a workout , I would puke my guts out if I tried it.

Bill
I was sceptical to begin with because I've only ever ingested water during exercise. I've still never tried any of these workout energy drinks either (and don't intend to).

Then I researched into the role amino acids play regarding energy, as well as recovery and compensation. As stated above, the upshot was a protein drink made up of budget supplements (100-200 kcals). From the first workout I've added reps and poundages. I also recover more quickly in between workouts.

I stress, however, the supplement addition coincided with an overhaul of my nutritional regime.

It then struck me what I was doing wasn't so revolutionary. I thought back to some of the old school chaps I worked out with in the past who used to sink a litre or so of full-fat milk during a workout!
Obviously I could see why the milk could make you puke but I'd be surprised if a 100 kcal whey-based drink did anything else other than allow you to train even harder.


I know a lot of guys do use protein drinks during exercise, I just doubt if I could hold it down. As it is I found out a long time ago that I had to wait at least an hour after eating in order to workout without getting sick to my stomach.
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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

winstonnmccay wrote:
Ill have to repost an earlier reply of mine regarding supplementation:

several choices here depending on your lifestyle:

1. Meth
2. Crack
3. Heroin....
or if you prefer not to take drugs

4. Have kids (staying up late is a great calorie burner)
5. Get 2 more jobs
6. Find a job that is 20 miles away and walk there and back everyday...
or my personal favorite

7. Start a post dedicated to discussing HIT with Bioforce then stay up all night going in circles about the same damn thing, get a dictionary to look up all the words that dont exist, then check out every text book on exercise, physics and biology from the local college and try to find any proof for anything he says. Now if you do it right you will be so involved youll forget to eat.


Yup and according to good old bio he gives lectures on lumbar exercise and proper lifting techniques.
Imagine that!

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HIT

Norway

stevecollins33 wrote:
Bill Sekerak wrote:
I don't know how some guys can " eat " protein during a workout , I would puke my guts out if I tried it.

Bill
I was sceptical to begin with because I've only ever ingested water during exercise. I've still never tried any of these workout energy drinks either (and don't intend to).

Then I researched into the role amino acids play regarding energy, as well as recovery and compensation. As stated above, the upshot was a protein drink made up of budget supplements (100-200 kcals). From the first workout I've added reps and poundages. I also recover more quickly in between workouts.

I stress, however, the supplement addition coincided with an overhaul of my nutritional regime.

It then struck me what I was doing wasn't so revolutionary. I thought back to some of the old school chaps I worked out with in the past who used to sink a litre or so of full-fat milk during a workout!
Obviously I could see why the milk could make you puke but I'd be surprised if a 100 kcal whey-based drink did anything else other than allow you to train even harder.


I have almost the same experience as you! I usually take 6-10 of EAA 45 minutes before my workout with some Vitargo, immediately before my workout i take 6-10g EAA and 5g L-Leucine with some Vitargo (and sip this drink during my workout), when my workout is over i take some more Vitargo.

The result: I have more strength/energy during my workout, I recover quicker and I have started to believe something that I didn't before and that is that the muscle can grow during my workout (instead of believing that I had to wait 1-2-3-4 days before growth of muscle tissue to concur)


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stevecollins33

HIT wrote:
I have almost the same experience as you! I usually take 6-10 of EAA 45 minutes before my workout with some Vitargo, immediately before my workout i take 6-10g EAA and 5g L-Leucine with some Vitargo (and sip this drink during my workout), when my workout is over i take some more Vitargo.

The result: I have more strength/energy during my workout, I recover quicker and I have started to believe something that I didn't before and that is that the muscle can grow during my workout (instead of believing that I had to wait 1-2-3-4 days before growth of muscle tissue to concur)




It's still widely believed that the workout is a destructive period and that muscle growth can only take place afterwards. As a result, many trainees are missing out on an ample opportunity to ensure the blood surging to the muscles during exercise is fortified with essential aminos and other key nutrients - all vital for energy, recovery and growth.
A simple safeguard to take but sadly neglected by many.
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stevecollins33

winstonnmccay wrote:
Ill have to repost an earlier reply of mine regarding supplementation:

several choices here depending on your lifestyle:

1. Meth
2. Crack
3. Heroin....
or if you prefer not to take drugs

4. Have kids (staying up late is a great calorie burner)
5. Get 2 more jobs
6. Find a job that is 20 miles away and walk there and back everyday...
or my personal favorite

7. Start a post dedicated to discussing HIT with Bioforce then stay up all night going in circles about the same damn thing, get a dictionary to look up all the words that dont exist, then check out every text book on exercise, physics and biology from the local college and try to find any proof for anything he says. Now if you do it right you will be so involved youll forget to eat.


Take your fundamentalist crap elsewhere. The notion that supplements are worthless - and that supplement-users have been brainwashed as part of the arch Weider conspiracy - is narrow-minded, futile and just plain bollocks.
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Dave Price

New Jersey, USA

Hey since this thread is about supplements I figured I would add some more. Certain supplements for instance says they has insulin drivers. I actually forget but how does insulin act in the muscle building proces? Is it really beneficial to take protein supplements before workouts, Dr. Darden suggest that we don't need as much protein as we may think so any opinions would be good.
Dave
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HIT

Norway

Overkill?

PREWORKOUT(20-30 mins before workout)
3-5 Grams of creatine
3-10grams of Glutamine
15-20grams of eaa
30-50 grams of vitargo
1 tsp electrolyte drink powder( like gatorade)

During workout(3/4 of the way through workout)
3-5 Grams of creatine
3-10grams of Glutamine
15-20grams of eaa
15 Grams of BCAAS
50 grams of vitargo
1 tsp electrolyte drink powder( like gatorade)

Postworkout
3-5 g creatine
3-10 g glutamine
40-50 g whey protein isolate and hrdrolysates
50-75 g vitargo
1 tsp electrolyte drink powder

Taking a shake during a workout is probably outside most trainers norm. Nutrients from the powershake taken during training are taken directly to your muscles most efficiently.

Sarcev himself states" You're playing with the potency of the strongest anabolic hormone--insulin. Using vitargo( a high molecular weight glucose polymer) is going to spike insulin; it creates hyperinsulin levels in the body.

I say that insulin is your best friend,not your worst enemy--if you know how to use it to your advantage. Blood flow (and therefore nutrient uptake by muscles) increases during training. We have about five liters of blood circulating normally each minute.

During training we have about 25 liters of blood circulating per minute (due to increased heart rate and volume of blood being pumped by the heart). That's an increase of 5 times. While resting approx. 20% of those 5 liters goes to muscle tissue, but when training about 80% of the 25 liters go into muscle tissue.

Nutrient uptake is not just enhanced 5 times as much, but 20 times as much. So if you have all the essential amino acids and glucose available and insulin in the blood,the blood is 20x more effective in delivering all these nutrients into the trained muscle fibers. With the presence of creatine, a miracle wcan happen and a micracle always does happen with all the athletes I train."
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stevecollins33

Following on from HIT, insulin is now widely regarded as the leading anabolic hormone. Testosterone and growth hormone do not play as big a role as once believed (assuming you're steroid free).
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stevecollins33

HIT wrote:
Overkill?

PREWORKOUT(20-30 mins before workout)
3-5 Grams of creatine
3-10grams of Glutamine
15-20grams of eaa
30-50 grams of vitargo
1 tsp electrolyte drink powder( like gatorade)

During workout(3/4 of the way through workout)
3-5 Grams of creatine
3-10grams of Glutamine
15-20grams of eaa
15 Grams of BCAAS
50 grams of vitargo
1 tsp electrolyte drink powder( like gatorade)

Postworkout
3-5 g creatine
3-10 g glutamine
40-50 g whey protein isolate and hrdrolysates
50-75 g vitargo
1 tsp electrolyte drink powder

Taking a shake during a workout is probably outside most trainers norm. Nutrients from the powershake taken during training are taken directly to your muscles most efficiently.

Sarcev himself states" You're playing with the potency of the strongest anabolic hormone--insulin. Using vitargo( a high molecular weight glucose polymer) is going to spike insulin; it creates hyperinsulin levels in the body.

I say that insulin is your best friend,not your worst enemy--if you know how to use it to your advantage. Blood flow (and therefore nutrient uptake by muscles) increases during training. We have about five liters of blood circulating normally each minute.

During training we have about 25 liters of blood circulating per minute (due to increased heart rate and volume of blood being pumped by the heart). That's an increase of 5 times. While resting approx. 20% of those 5 liters goes to muscle tissue, but when training about 80% of the 25 liters go into muscle tissue.

Nutrient uptake is not just enhanced 5 times as much, but 20 times as much. So if you have all the essential amino acids and glucose available and insulin in the blood,the blood is 20x more effective in delivering all these nutrients into the trained muscle fibers. With the presence of creatine, a miracle wcan happen and a micracle always does happen with all the athletes I train."


Thanks for sharing your concoctions with us, much appreciated.
I'm a bit different in that I believe the role of high GI carb infusions to spike insulin levels around the workout period has been over-stated. However, I submit that this flies in the face of much contemporary wisdom.
I take my lead from Mauro DiPasquale in this. My own blends involves the following.

Pre-workout (30 mins before)
25g whey
5g l-glutamine
5g creatine
500mg taurine
600mg asprin
175mg calcium
3xBCAAs
1 anti-oxidant (250mg Vit E, 500mg Vit C, 15mg Beta Carotene, 50ug Selenium)
thermogenic capsule (optional)

During workout
35-50g whey
5g l-glutamine
5g creatine
1000mg taurine
2 tbsp liquid aminos

After workout (immediately after cool-down)
As pre-workout minus taurine, thermogenic, while 2 tbsp liquid aminos replaces BCAAs tabs.
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JohnV474

I have a minimalist approach to supplements.

I drink a glass of milk with whey protein powder, about 5x a week (except now, as I'm on a reduced-calorie diet).

I take one multi-vitamin/multi-mineral supplement about 5x per week (no RDA's above 100%).

I take a fish oil capsule 3-4x per week, for heart benefits.

I take a Vitamin C supplement 3-4x per week also, just to get rid of them.

When I'm trying to gain size, I use creatine. I don't know if it does much, but I think it's harmless.

I avoid any other supplementation. If I could get straight answers about them, I'd be more openminded. I don't doubt that supplements can make a big difference. In theory, of course they can, like any medication.

I get leery of full-page glossy ads in magazines that use cheap marketing tactics. If there were a better source for information than Flex magazine or the cashier at GNC, I'd be willing to check it out.

JohnV474
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OSAKA/J

I'll have to agree with JohnV474 on this. While I would not dismiss the idea of supplements helping out (such as "HIT's" regimen) I'm a little skeptical that such a regimen would provide super benefits. My supplement programme is identical to John's, except that I keep the milk in my diet, no matter what.

Question for Steve: You said you overhauled your nutritional plan. What was so bad about it to begin with?

Osaka/J
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stevecollins33

OSAKA/J wrote:
Question for Steve: You said you overhauled your nutritional plan. What was so bad about it to begin with?

Osaka/J


Hi
I was following a typical high carb plan with calories around maintenance levels. Supplemented with multi-vit/mins.
After initial success on getting lean, my gains dried up. Life was consumed by when I could eat next. Mood swings and energy lulls were common. Performance in the gym was poor despite training twice, sometime once a week.

In late November I switched to the Anabolic Diet (including the workout supplement regime outlined earlier) and the reverse unfolded in all departments, including training three times a week with maximum energy and enthusiasm.
The results to date have been a 2lb increase in bodyweight; 2% drop in body fat. My upper abs are now showing, while in generous lighting conditions a novel six-pack is popping out!

People are now making positive comments on my physique instead of charges of being scrawny, thin, gaunt, etc. Still work to be done but after 12 months of going almost backwards it's so refreshing.
In addition to workout supplementation, daily intake consists of the following:
1 high-potency multi-vit/min complex
4 flax oil caps
2000mg Vit C
3 EPA caps
3 Evening Primrose caps
2 white willow caps
2 Devil's Claw caps
2 glucosimine/condroitin tabs
As you can tell, much of this is designed to tackle inflamation and maximise joint health.
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OSAKA/J

Steve,

Thanks for your answer. I'm all for maximizing joint health, too.

Good training to you!

Osaka/J
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Benjamin Dover

winstonnmccay wrote:
Ill have to repost an earlier reply of mine regarding supplementation:

several choices here depending on your lifestyle:

1. Meth
2. Crack
3. Heroin....
or if you prefer not to take drugs

4. Have kids (staying up late is a great calorie burner)
5. Get 2 more jobs
6. Find a job that is 20 miles away and walk there and back everyday...
or my personal favorite

7. Start a post dedicated to discussing HIT with Bioforce then stay up all night going in circles about the same damn thing, get a dictionary to look up all the words that dont exist, then check out every text book on exercise, physics and biology from the local college and try to find any proof for anything he says. Now if you do it right you will be so involved youll forget to eat.


Priceless! I ALWAYS get ripped when I get into that stuff, number 7, that is!

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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

stevecollins33 wrote:
winstonnmccay wrote:
Ill have to repost an earlier reply of mine regarding supplementation:

several choices here depending on your lifestyle:

1. Meth
2. Crack
3. Heroin....
or if you prefer not to take drugs

4. Have kids (staying up late is a great calorie burner)
5. Get 2 more jobs
6. Find a job that is 20 miles away and walk there and back everyday...
or my personal favorite

7. Start a post dedicated to discussing HIT with Bioforce then stay up all night going in circles about the same damn thing, get a dictionary to look up all the words that dont exist, then check out every text book on exercise, physics and biology from the local college and try to find any proof for anything he says. Now if you do it right you will be so involved youll forget to eat.


Take your fundamentalist crap elsewhere. The notion that supplements are worthless - and that supplement-users have been brainwashed as part of the arch Weider conspiracy - is narrow-minded, futile and just plain bollocks.


Whoa , take it easy , it's just a little humor that this forum needs from time to time.
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Yes

stevecollins33 wrote:
Following on from HIT, insulin is now widely regarded as the leading anabolic hormone.


Now? From when, and do you have any studies to support that? Last time I saw a study it showed that insulin was anti-catabolic, and not a anabolic hormone as previously believed.
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Yes

stevecollins33 wrote:
Following on from HIT, insulin is now widely regarded as the leading anabolic hormone.

"The nature of the involvement of insulin, classically thought of as the most important anabolic hormone, is bizarre because it appears that in adult humans insulin does not do what it does in the growing animals traditionally used for metabolic research, such as rats, mice and even pigs."

Exp Physiol 90.4 pp 427-436, April 15, 2005.

"There appears to be a requirement for a minimal concentration of plasma insulin to stimulate muscle protein synthesis in response to resistance exercise and AA ingestion."

Eur J Appl Physiol. 2005 May;94(1-2):1-10. Regulation of mTOR by amino acids and resistance exercise in skeletal muscle.


"Hyperinsulinemia suppresses accelerated muscle protein breakdown after exercise, but not normal resting breakdown."

Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2001 Dec;11 Suppl:S164-9. Control of muscle protein breakdown: effects of activity and nutritional states.
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stevecollins33

Yes wrote:
stevecollins33 wrote:
Following on from HIT, insulin is now widely regarded as the leading anabolic hormone.

Now? From when, and do you have any studies to support that? Last time I saw a study it showed that insulin was anti-catabolic, and not a anabolic hormone as previously believed.


According to John Ivy PhD and Robert Portman PhD, insulin is the "anabolic regulator of the muscle".

Research examined by the pair drew the following conclusions:
1) Insulin increases protein synthesis
2) Insulin increases amino acid transport
Insulin reduces protein degredation
4) Insulin increases glucose uptake.
5) Insulin increases muscle glycogen storage
6) Insulin suppresses cortisol release.
7) Insulin increases muscle blood flow.

For these reasons, they argue, insulin is the most powerful anabolic hormone.
I suggest reading the book Nutrient Timing for further references.
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Yes

stevecollins33 wrote:
Yes wrote:
stevecollins33 wrote:
Following on from HIT, insulin is now widely regarded as the leading anabolic hormone.

Now? From when, and do you have any studies to support that? Last time I saw a study it showed that insulin was anti-catabolic, and not a anabolic hormone as previously believed.


According to John Ivy PhD and Robert Portman PhD, insulin is the "anabolic regulator of the muscle".

Research examined by the pair drew the following conclusions:
1) Insulin increases protein synthesis
2) Insulin increases amino acid transport
Insulin reduces protein degredation
4) Insulin increases glucose uptake.
5) Insulin increases muscle glycogen storage
6) Insulin suppresses cortisol release.
7) Insulin increases muscle blood flow.

For these reasons, they argue, insulin is the most powerful anabolic hormone.
I suggest reading the book Nutrient Timing for further references.


On what references do these gentlemen base their opinions? That is rather important to know because, as you can see in the first study I quoted, there is fairly new evidence suggesting that earlier research - based on animal studies - gave us the wrong idea on the workings on insulin.

It should also be noted that the arguments you present here do not necessarily indicate that insulin is anabolic. As I have come to understand it, these points are correct. However, as quoted from another of those studies I refered to, insulin only helps to increase protein synthesis up to base levels after exercise - when you have a very large breakdown. That is it's anti-catabolic function.

Also, these effects are not dose related. It's achieved by very small amounts of insulin, and more insulin does not give an increased effect.
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