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southbeach

You that restrict carbs might want to reconsider if you cherish your hard earned gains ;))

Plant Foods for Preserving Muscle Mass
By Rosalie Marion Bliss
May 23, 2008

Fruits and vegetables contain essential vitamins, minerals and fiber
that are key to good health. Now, a newly released study by Agricultural
Research Service (ARS)-funded scientists suggests plant foods also may
help preserve muscle mass in older men and women.

The study was led by physician and nutrition specialist Bess
Dawson-Hughes at the Jean Mayer USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on
Aging at Tufts University in Boston, Mass.

The typical American diet is rich in protein, cereal grains and other
acid-producing foods. In general, such diets generate tiny amounts of
acid each day. With aging, a mild but slowly increasing metabolic
"acidosis" develops, according to the researchers.

Acidosis appears to trigger a muscle-wasting response. So the
researchers looked at links between measures of lean body mass and diets
relatively high in potassium-rich, alkaline-residue producing fruits and
vegetables. Such diets could help neutralize acidosis. Foods can be
considered alkaline or acidic based on the residues they produce in the
body, rather than whether they are alkaline or acidic themselves. For
example, acidic grapefruits are metabolized to alkaline residues.

The researchers conducted a cross-sectional analysis on a subset of
nearly 400 male and female volunteers aged 65 or older who had completed
a three-year osteoporosis intervention trial. The volunteers' physical
activity, height and weight, and percentage of lean body mass were
measured at the start of the study and at three years. Their urinary
potassium was measured at the start of the study, and their dietary data
was collected at 18 months.

Based on regression models, volunteers whose diets were rich in
potassium could expect to have 3.6 more pounds of lean tissue mass than
volunteers with half the higher potassium intake. That almost offsets
the 4.4 pounds of lean tissue that is typically lost in a decade in
healthy men and women aged 65 and above, according to authors. The study
was published in the March issue of the American Journal of Clinical
Nutrition.

Sarcopenia, or loss of muscle mass, can lead to falls due to weakened
leg muscles. The authors encourage future studies that look into the
effects of increasing overall intake of foods that metabolize to
alkaline residues on muscle mass and functionality.

ARS is the U.S. Department of Agriculture's chief scientific research
agency.
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southbeach

The study..

American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 87, No. 3, 662-665, March 2008
Alkaline diets favor lean tissue mass in older adults

Background: Maintaining muscle mass while aging is important to prevent
falls and fractures. Metabolic acidosis promotes muscle wasting, and the
net acid load from diets that are rich in net acid?producing protein and
cereal grains relative to their content of net alkali?producing fruit
and vegetables may therefore contribute to a reduction in lean tissue
mass in older adults.

Objective: We aimed to determine whether there was an association of
24-h urinary potassium and an index of fruit and vegetable content of
the diet with the percentage lean body mass (%LBM) or change in %LBM in
older subjects.

Design: Subjects were 384 men and women 65 y old who participated in a
3-y trial comparing calcium and vitamin D with placebo. Potassium was
measured in 24-h urine collections at baseline. The %LBM, defined as
total body nonfat, nonbone tissue weight ? weight x 100, was measured by
using dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry at baseline and at 3 y. Physical
activity, height, and weight were assessed at baseline and at 3 y.

Results: At baseline, the mean urinary potassium excretion was 67.0 ?
21.1 mmol/d. Urinary potassium (mmol/d) was significantly positively
associated with %LBM at baseline (? = 0.033, P = 0.006; adjusted for
sex, weight, and nitrogen excretion) but not with 3-y change in %LBM.
Over the 3-y study, %LBM increased by 2.6 ? 3.6%.

Conclusion: Higher intake of foods rich in potassium, such as fruit and
vegetables, may favor the preservation of muscle mass in older men and
women.
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stevecollins33

Your study does not support the hypothesis you state, i.e. low-carb diets may lead to lean tissue loss.

For starters, potassium is abundant in foods particularly valued by low-carb dieters, e.g. dairy produce, meat, fish and avocados.

Second, a proper low-carb diet prescribes plenty of fibre through vegetables such as brocoli, sprouts, celerly, lettuce, cucumber, etc, as well as healthy rations of thin-skinned berries, e.g. blueberries, raspberries, etc.
The idea that low-carb diets avoid fruit and veg is a fallacy i'm afraid.
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Larry T

North Carolina, USA

Southbeach, are so insecure in your vegan choice that you have to try to sell everyone here on eating like you? Just eat whatever you want - it's a free country. You can Google up any study you wish, but for every study you post, someone else can post a counter to your "study". You don't need anyone's permission to eat what you choose. Preach it to somebody who cares.
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TBoneMitch

Quebec, CAN

It's quite subjective, but I have gained plenty of muscle while maintaining a low body fat eating a low carb diet with plenty of fats.

Caloric balance is key, as is the proper training program.

BTW my blood lipids, blood pressure, and health parameters are more than fine and I've eaten this way for the last 5 years.

Look up Dr Wolfgang Lutz and Dr Arthur Devany's work for more info on the health and bodycomp benefits of low carb eating.
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southbeach

i try to eat a low-fat fiber rich nutrient dense diet. i restrict processed food of any kind and that usually limits the refined carbs. But that's about as far as i go with the 'low carb' fad nonsense.
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Crotalus

southbeach wrote:
You that restrict carbs might want to reconsider if you cherish your hard earned gains


Reconsider ? ... my ass ! This year I tried a low carb diet and the results are far better than the high carb/calorie restrictive ones I was on for 20 years. And it's not just me seeing the big difference in composition, others are always asking what I've been doing different.

Like I said before about 'studies' ; unless I was the one they studied, they are meaning less to me. What am I supposed to do, follow a diet that worked for 20 other guys under scientific, controlled conditions despite not working for me in the real world ? Bullshit ...
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southbeach

Crotalus wrote:
southbeach wrote:
You that restrict carbs might want to reconsider if you cherish your hard earned gains

Reconsider ? ... my ass ! This year I tried a low carb diet and the results are far better than the high carb/calorie restrictive ones I was on for 20 years. And it's not just me seeing the big difference in composition, others are always asking what I've been doing different.

Like I said before about 'studies' ; unless I was the one they studied, they are meaning less to me. What am I supposed to do, follow a diet that worked for 20 other guys under scientific, controlled conditions despite not working for me in the real world ? Bullshit ...


What's your diet look like now? What did you change?
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Crotalus

I'm not knocking high carbs if they work for you ... so don't get the idea I think what I'm doing is something everyone else should do. I changed to see how it would work for me. MY basic plan came from Mario Pasquale's diet.

I just changed over to a higher protein/fat and low carb day ( three days in a row ) followed by a high carb day with little protein and fat. If I think I need another day of carbs, etc , I'll do that.

On my diets I eat basically the same things everyday - I'm single so no pressure to eat what others in the house would - and it's a lot easier for me to eat the same thing.

My old diet I'd have unsweetened apple sauce with dry oatmeal and a banana mixed in and coffee for breakfast , about 6 am .

Next would be an apple, peach , whatever was in season about 11:00 , next meal about 2:00 was a cup of brown rice with tuna or a baked potato with a salad ; next another fruit , and dinner chicken breast with a salad.

My new food schedule is one package of instant grits and sharp cheese with three scrambles eggs and coffee for breakfast. Also , each day I have two servings of Nano Greens - one at breakfast and one in the middle of the day.

At about 11:00 I'll have a protein drink of 1/2 and 1/2 and protein powder.

Next meal will be a salad with tuna or chicken.

Next the Nano Green drink along with the same thing as I had for breakfast or another 1/2 and 1/2 drink.

Last meal a salad with either chicken breast, turkey burger or regular hamburger - too lazy to use anything other than my George Foreman grill.

My drinks with the meals is water with lime or lemon juice.

I'll do this for three days and on my high carb day I'll have my fruit 'fix' since fresh fruit has always been my weakness, rice and potatoes. Breakfast will usually be the applesauce and wheat germ mix and fruit without the eggs. On this type diet I very seldom have a desire for any 'junk' carbs when before on that low calorie/high carb diet I was always hungry and had craving for this and that.

I'll admit I still have problems about eating this way being healthy , but I'm being sure to get three or four salads a day besides the supplementation from the Nano Greens .

As far as appearance , I'm without a doubt leaner than I ever was at this weight ( 188 ) and am in 32" jeans, though the thighs are a little tight.

Seriously, I have nothing to benefit by pushing this diet on anyone or knocking another ... all I'm doing is reporting how this one worked for me since March ... really happy with the results.

If you stop seeing my posts, maybe I did keel over from a heart attack , but let's hope not, LOL.

Also ... the workouts are three days a week, split three ways and done JREP fashion in Pre-haust order ... total gym time per week is about 70 minutes ; two workouts about 22 minutes and the third about 25

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southbeach

Crotalus wrote:
I'm not knocking high carbs if they work for you ... so don't get the idea I think what I'm doing is something everyone else should do. I changed to see how it would work for me. MY basic plan came from Mario Pasquale's diet.

I just changed over to a higher protein/fat and low carb day ( three days in a row ) followed by a high carb day with little protein and fat. If I think I need another day of carbs, etc , I'll do that.

On my diets I eat basically the same things everyday - I'm single so no pressure to eat what others in the house would - and it's a lot easier for me to eat the same thing.

My old diet I'd have unsweetened apple sauce with dry oatmeal and a banana mixed in and coffee for breakfast , about 6 am .

Next would be an apple, peach , whatever was in season about 11:00 , next meal about 2:00 was a cup of brown rice with tuna or a baked potato with a salad ; next another fruit , and dinner chicken breast with a salad.

My new food schedule is one package of instant grits and sharp cheese with three scrambles eggs and coffee for breakfast. Also , each day I have two servings of Nano Greens - one at breakfast and one in the middle of the day.

At about 11:00 I'll have a protein drink of 1/2 and 1/2 and protein powder.

Next meal will be a salad with tuna or chicken.

Next the Nano Green drink along with the same thing as I had for breakfast or another 1/2 and 1/2 drink.

Last meal a salad with either chicken breast, turkey burger or regular hamburger - too lazy to use anything other than my George Foreman grill.

My drinks with the meals is water with lime or lemon juice.

I'll do this for three days and on my high carb day I'll have my fruit 'fix' since fresh fruit has always been my weakness, rice and potatoes. Breakfast will usually be the applesauce and wheat germ mix and fruit without the eggs. On this type diet I very seldom have a desire for any 'junk' carbs when before on that low calorie/high carb diet I was always hungry and had craving for this and that.

I'll admit I still have problems about eating this way being healthy , but I'm being sure to get three or four salads a day besides the supplementation from the Nano Greens .

As far as appearance , I'm without a doubt leaner than I ever was at this weight ( 188 ) and am in 32" jeans, though the thighs are a little tight.

Seriously, I have nothing to benefit by pushing this diet on anyone or knocking another ... all I'm doing is reporting how this one worked for me since March ... really happy with the results.

If you stop seeing my posts, maybe I did keel over from a heart attack , but let's hope not, LOL.

Also ... the workouts are three days a week, split three ways and done JREP fashion in Pre-haust order ... total gym time per week is about 70 minutes ; two workouts about 22 minutes and the third about 25



so you substituted a breakfast of eggs and cheese for oatmeal and fresh fruit. you still eat chicken or some other animal product for dinner, The 'old' meal plan was usually chicken, the 'new' meal plan might be a hamburger.

What do you think is the secret ingredient to your new found succes.. eggs and cheese?

"If I think I need another day of carbs, etc , I'll do that."

why might you need another day of carbs?
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Crotalus

Most of what I ate before was carbs, now it's much lower in carbs.

What do you think made the difference in my appearance if not from the reduction of carbs ?


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southbeach

Crotalus wrote:
Most of what I ate before was carbs, now it's much lower in carbs.

What do you think made the difference in my appearance if not from the reduction of carbs ?




my guess is you are inadvertently eating less total calories.. often when we consciously exclude a particular food group we eat less overall and calories go down.

what other reasonable explanation? nothing magicall in cheese and eggs.. on the contrary those are CALORIE DENSE
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southbeach

try eating only brown and steamed veggies for three weeks..no animal meat at all.

report back
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goya

Is it me or do people that respond to low carb diets better also are the same that respond to more volume?

I am just asking because I seem to recall reading that FT muscle favors carbs and stores more glycogen than ST muscle and on the other hand ST muscle favors fat as a source of energy and does not store as much glygogen but has more capillariaes (small blood vessels) and more mitochondria in the cells

I have tried both approaches and I kind of lose muscle volume, strength and ability to get a pump when I go low carb.

So there might be a connection.
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McNultyEssex

Crotalus wrote:

Like I said before about 'studies' ; unless I was the one they studied, they are meaning less to me. What am I supposed to do, follow a diet that worked for 20 other guys under scientific, controlled conditions despite not working for me in the real world ? Bullshit ...


Absolutely. If 20 people get killed from being shot in the head, it means nothing to me because I'm an "individual".
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southbeach

McNultyEssex wrote:
Crotalus wrote:

Like I said before about 'studies' ; unless I was the one they studied, they are meaning less to me. What am I supposed to do, follow a diet that worked for 20 other guys under scientific, controlled conditions despite not working for me in the real world ? Bullshit ...

Absolutely. If 20 people get killed from being shot in the head, it means nothing to me because I'm an "individual".


maybe you have an alien physiology, it's p[ossible. is your blood green?
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veganmaster

southbeach wrote:
McNultyEssex wrote:
Crotalus wrote:

Like I said before about 'studies' ... I'm an "individual".


maybe you have an alien physiology, it's p[ossible. is your blood green?


Exactly. Human gastrophysiology is particularly well-engineered to process plant food. It can handle a small amount of animal food, but waste products build up. For example, when animal protein is eaten, that acid load that comes with a higher-ratio of sulfur amino acids, it MUST be buffered with calcium taken from the bones.

Thus the average non-exercising American slowly loses bone mass over time. And this is well-represented in the scientific literature - you feed people a high meat diet, your measurements reveal they are pissing away their calcium daily. This is an example of just one avenue, in a constellation of the proven side-effects of a diet high in animal protein.

But as far as muscle protein stores go - it is proven that PSMF (Protein-Sparing Modified Fast) diets can maintain LBM despite very large energy deficits. In fact the research shows that a man about my size (5"11 165) needs just 5 grams of protein per hour to maintain protein stores. Thus, although animal foods are a "dirtier" fuel than plant food, they may certainly be used to maintain muscle - as the laws of physics apply equally.

But the science is clear that the way to grow muscle the fastest is 1)The Minor Factor exercise every 48-72 hours to keep Protein Synthesis elevated and

2) The Major Factor: in general, the more calories you eat the more muscle you gain. When kcal intake exceeds expenditure, LBM, FAT & GLYCOGEN stores all increase. I've studied all the relevant overfeeding studies I could find, and the best diets for the highest muscle to fat ratio were high CHO, low FAT, Moderate PRO (only 90g). And obviously very high in kcal (4300 kcal+). We're talking muscle gains measured in lbs/wk, in folks who weren't exercising.

In fact a main factor for such gains is the kcal surplus, which would be reduced obviously with exercise. (Thus for fastest LBM gain you've got to consume 1500-2000+ kcal over your Total Energy Expenditure).

The idea that people are so genetically varied that we process basic macronutrients differently is completely unsupported by the scientific evidence revealed in metabolism studies.









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Crotalus

goya wrote:
Is it me or do people that respond to low carb diets better also are the same that respond to more volume?



Higher volume exercise is a disaster for me. I train about 70 minutes a week .... if I were to push it to 90 minutes a week I'd see a negative results.

I've also reduced my training to as little as 40 minutes a month and also saw terrible results.
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stevecollins33

southbeach wrote:
Crotalus wrote:
Most of what I ate before was carbs, now it's much lower in carbs.

What do you think made the difference in my appearance if not from the reduction of carbs ?




my guess is you are inadvertently eating less total calories.. often when we consciously exclude a particular food group we eat less overall and calories go down.

what other reasonable explanation? nothing magicall in cheese and eggs.. on the contrary those are CALORIE DENSE


You're missing the point here. Low-carb diets are popular for a few key reasons, one of them being they appear to be muscle-sparing while on negative calorie intake. Further, some adherents experience muscle gain and fat loss at the same time (which is the Holy Grail of bodybuilding, in my opinion. Almost every bodybuilding guru claims to have it but few deliver).

Personally I've persisted with the low-carb approach for seven months now and have no inclination to revert back to my high-carb days. It continues to work for me and until that changes I won't.
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Drew Baye

Florida, USA

From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/.../Internet_troll

Troll (Internet):

An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.


If people stop taking the bait perhaps SouthBeach will get bored with this behavior and go away.
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southbeach

stevecollins33 wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Crotalus wrote:
Most of what I ate before was carbs, now it's much lower in carbs.

What do you think made the difference in my appearance if not from the reduction of carbs ?




my guess is you are inadvertently eating less total calories.. often when we consciously exclude a particular food group we eat less overall and calories go down.

what other reasonable explanation? nothing magicall in cheese and eggs.. on the contrary those are CALORIE DENSE


You're missing the point here. Low-carb diets are popular for a few key reasons, one of them being they appear to be muscle-sparing while on negative calorie intake. Further, some adherents experience muscle gain and fat loss at the same time (which is the Holy Grail of bodybuilding, in my opinion. Almost every bodybuilding guru claims to have it but few deliver).

Personally I've persisted with the low-carb approach for seven months now and have no inclination to revert back to my high-carb days. It continues to work for me and until that changes I won't.


Do you really believe that restricting fresh fruit and vegetables helps you retain and build muscle? Or is it some other type of carb you are not eating?
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Tom Traynor

Three POUNDS of broccoli--which is 16 SERVINGS has 32 NET carbs (subtracting fiber from total carbs) and 375 calories. If one could eat that much daily, is that "vegetarian" enough? You are a "grainetarian".
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SanSooMan

A VERY low carb (ketosis)diet could lead to muscle loss because of cortisol build-up. This overall process is called neo-glucogenesis. This will not happen on a paleo-type diet.
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southbeach

Carbs have gotten a bad rep in the low carb fad camps recently but carbs are not the problem. CALORIES are!

Consider:

1) Low body mass index in non-meat eaters: the possible roles of animal fat, dietary fibre and alcohol

CONCLUSIONS: Non-meat eaters are thinner than meat eaters. This may be partly due to a higher intake of dietary fibre, a lower intake of animal fat, and only in men a lower intake of alcohol.

2)Weight gain over 5 years in 21 966 meat-eating, fish-eating, vegetarian, and vegan men and women in EPIC-Oxford

Conclusion:


During 5 years follow-up, the mean annual weight gain in a health-conscious cohort in the UK was approximately 400 g. Small differences in weight gain were observed between meat-eaters, fish-eaters, vegetarians and vegans. Lowest weight gain was seen among those who, during follow-up, had changed to a diet containing fewer animal food.

3)Diet and body mass index in 38 000 EPIC-Oxford meat-eaters, fish-eaters, vegetarians and vegans

CONCLUSIONS: Fish-eaters, vegetarians and especially vegans had lower BMI than meat-eaters. Differences in macronutrient intakes accounted for about half the difference in mean BMI between vegans and meat-eaters. High protein and low fibre intakes were the factors most strongly associated with increasing BMI.


Look at this one:

4)"Long-term low-calorie low-protein vegan diet and endurance exercise are associated with low cardiometabolic risk."
Fontana L, Meyer TE, Klein S, Holloszy JO.

Division of Geriatrics and Nutritional Sciences and Center for Human Nutrition, Washington University School of Medicine, 4566 Scott Avenue, St. Louis, MO 63110, USA. lfontana@...

BACKGROUND: Western diets, which typically contain large amounts of energy-dense processed foods, together with a sedentary lifestyle are associated with increased cardiometabolic risk. We evaluated the long-term effects of consuming a low-calorie low-protein vegan diet or performing regular endurance exercise on cardiometabolic risk factors.

METHODS: In this cross-sectional study, cardiometabolic risk factors were evaluated in 21 sedentary subjects, who had been on a low-calorie low-protein raw vegan diet for 4.4 +/- 2.8 years, (mean age, 53.1 +/- 11 yrs), 21 body mass index (BMI)-matched endurance runners consuming Western diets, and 21 age- and gender-matched sedentary subjects, consuming Western diets.

RESULTS: BMI was lower in the low-calorie low-protein vegan diet (21.3 +/- 3.1 kg/m(2)) and endurance runner (21.1 +/- 1.6 kg/m(2)) groups than in the sedentary Western diet group (26.5 +/- 2.7 kg/m(2)) (p < 0.005). Plasma concentrations of lipids, lipoproteins, glucose, insulin, C-reactive protein, blood pressure (BP), and carotid artery intima-media thickness were lower in the low-calorie low-protein vegan diet and runner groups than in the Western diet group (all p < 0.05). Both systolic and diastolic BP were lower in the low-calorie low-protein vegan diet group (104 +/- 15 and 62 +/- 11 mm Hg) than in BMI-matched endurance runners (122 +/- 13 and 72 +/- 9 mmHg) and Western diet group (132 +/- 14 and 79 +/- 8 mm Hg) (p < 0.001); BP values were directly associated with sodium intake and inversely associated with potassium and fiber intake.

CONCLUSIONS: Long-term consumption of a low-calorie low-protein vegan diet or regular endurance exercise training is associated with low cardiometabolic risk. Moreover, our data suggest that specific components of a low-calorie low-protein vegan diet provide additional beneficial effects on blood pressure.




Apparently replacing WHOLE carbs from vegertables and fruit with more protein is not the best idea to come along recently. Refined processed carbs have all or most of fiber removed, the natural 'package' it came in. get rid of the doughnuts, cookies, and most anything that comes in a carton or plastic bag is probably wise too.

(A basic rule of thumb i use is if i can't recognize it i usually don't eat it.) You know what most of fruit and vegetables look like.

So, this high-protein thing is no a good idea and ample support in research.
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Elaikases

Drew Baye wrote:
From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/.../Internet_troll

Troll (Internet):

An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

If people stop taking the bait perhaps SouthBeach will get bored with this behavior and go away.


;)

At least he has drawn out the people who went low carb and gained strength (I did for the low carb period I went through. I'm now on a different diet, but it didn't cause me to lose muscle strength, I made steady gains the whole time).
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