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10-5 Rep Cadence
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Butters

I have a question for Dr. Darden or anyone else that has read his older stuff. A lot of HIT trainers in the 90s, include Dr. Darden, were big on the 10 second concentric and 5 second eccentric for reps in the 4-6 range for movements. Starting in the early 2000s Dr. Darden went back to the more standard 4/4 cadence as his primary recommendation.

1. Does anyone know why he dropped the 10/5 since his successful transformations like Hudlow and Whitley all did 10/5?

2. Given that someone is stronger in the negative, what was the reasoning for going so slow on the positive? I would think you would rather do a faster positive and slower negative.

Thanks to Dr. Darden or anyone else with input into what his thinking was.
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Joshua Trentine

Ohio, USA

5 second negative was recommended by Ken Hutchins, due to the friction based respite on most of the Nautilus machines.

The combination of a high levels of apparatus friction and greater strength on the negative phase allowed for too much recovery and recycling of lower threshold motor units during the negative stroke.

joshua

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Maximise

I have recently altered my days to every four or five days rest from the previous seven or eight just to get back to how it used to be but I interested if people prefer training with a slighter faster cadence? Mine is 3/5 with a two second pause perhaps. Of course there is this age old thing about this going on this site about this. I know that if you try slower cadence for something like chins, you won't get many reps out that's for sure.
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DownUnderLifter

I read on another forum that in regards to tension on the muscle, a slower positive = more tension and a faster negative = more tension. Is this correct?

I know that Joe Mullen recommends a 4/2 cadence to his trainees.

DUL
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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

DownUnderLifter wrote:
I read on another forum that in regards to tension on the muscle, a slower positive = more tension and a faster negative = more tension. Is this correct?

I know that Joe Mullen recommends a 4/2 cadence to his trainees.

DUL


Hi Down Under,

In general, it is just the opposite.

Intentional moving a load slowly concentrically that can be used for several reps will yeild "lower" tension than selecting a load that can be volitionally moved with a "high effort".

Eccentrically, the muscle transitions to a "braking/slowing" action and the tesnion will be highest when the load, or combination of load and speed create a larger force to act "against".

This concept can be very hard to grasp and the confusion exists due to the two different muscle actions and their abilities, and the fact that many cannot "wrap around" the fact that different weight loads will move at different speeds (as in heavy weights always move slowly, and lighter weight "can" be moved more quickly)



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Waynes

Switzerland


I used the 10/5 for some time and really enjoy it and the results; the best book is Ellingtons book Big.

DownUnderLifter wrote:
I read on another forum that in regards to tension on the muscle, a slower positive = more tension and a faster negative = more tension. Is this correct?

I know that Joe Mullen recommends a 4/2 cadence to his trainees.

DUL


Its quite the opposite.

Just think of holding a pound weight in your palm and going around and around with it, if you go at the right speed it will say in your hand, if you could turn around fast enough

The pound weight would actually push into your hand, but you go slow and take the tension off and down the weight will fall, as the tension is far to low.

Have you ever seen the huge G-forces on a pilots face or yours on the roller coaster, as the air is pushing against you so hard, making for the very higher tensions}

G-force is a measurement of an objects acceleration. The relationship between force and acceleration stems from Newtons second law, F = ma, where F is force, m is mass and a is acceleration.

Wayne
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Drew Baye

Florida, USA

DownUnderLifter wrote:
I read on another forum that in regards to tension on the muscle, a slower positive = more tension and a faster negative = more tension. Is this correct?

I know that Joe Mullen recommends a 4/2 cadence to his trainees.

DUL


Yes, Joe recommends a 4/2. Since people are stronger during the negative, he suggests a shorter negative to limit rest.

Frankly, I do not think a second or two makes that much of a difference as long as one is moving just slowly enough to maintain proper body position and control over the movement, and the set duration is roughly equal. If you are unable to move in the prescribed manner, maintain proper body position, or reverse direction smoothly without bouncing, jerking, or yanking at the weight, you're moving too quickly.

Also, who says it is necessary or beneficial to limit respite during the set? Some of the best results I've had with clients have been from doing rest pause training, where they purposefully rest between reps. Perhaps a slower negative is beneficial because of the respite it allows? In either case, the tension on the muscles will be the same during the negative.
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fantombe

Although after your attack on Darden at pure-hit.com I wouldn't expect an answer from the horses mouth, I would suggest that I don't think he's moved away from a 10/5 cadence specifically.

As he showed, it's a great cadence for both beginner and advanced alike. With Hudlow though, which I think could be one of the most recent case studies, he used a variety of cadences over the 6 month period, including 10/5.

So I think variety is the key here more than a specific cadence itself.
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Ciccio

fantombe wrote:
Although after your attack on Darden at pure-hit.com I wouldn't expect an answer from the horses mouth, I would suggest that I don't think he's moved away from a 10/5 cadence specifically.

As he showed, it's a great cadence for both beginner and advanced alike. With Hudlow though, which I think could be one of the most recent case studies, he used a variety of cadences over the 6 month period, including 10/5.

So I think variety is the key here more than a specific cadence itself.


As far as I remember, Ellington stated somewhere here that Hudlow used 10/5 exclusively, save the NO and some other specialization routine I think.
Also, there's no way arguing the BIG results.
A recent example is Jeff up here in his quest for fatloss in the intensive coaching section.
Looks to me like the 10/5 cadence stood the test of time.

Franco



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southbeach

DownUnderLifter wrote:
I read on another forum that in regards to tension on the muscle, a slower positive = more tension and a faster negative = more tension. Is this correct?

I know that Joe Mullen recommends a 4/2 cadence to his trainees.

DUL


this seems a bit contradictory to me..

why more tension with fibers sliding FAST during 'lengthening' of muscle but LESS tension with fibers 'shortening' at slower velocities?

is there any physiological explanation?

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marcrph

Portugal

Extremely S-L-O-W reps are tougher and seem to require more balance than a 10/5 rep cadence.

When I shattered my right hand recently, the ONLY rep speed that did not cause immediate pain was ESR. 1 pound felt like 1 ton in my right hand, and caused severe pain with regular rep speed, whereas 5 pounds could be done with ESR with little pain.

Landau hit on something recently, and it is a shame HIT does not promote this: namely that a properly conducted HIT program may allow for one to train well into advanced years, whereas other program forms may not.
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admnautilus

Washington, USA

marcrph wrote:

Landau hit on something recently, and it is a shame HIT does not promote this: namely that a properly conducted HIT program may allow for one to train well into advanced years, whereas other program forms may not.

Quite right!
We have many older clients in their 80's and even 2 in their 90's. They train hard and very slow. The one 90 year old could barely walk in the door when she started, now she walks with in the door and between exercises with nohelp. This new strength has completely changed her life. Better balance and functionality.
Within someones own condition the slow speed allows for anyone to train intensly and very safely. Two of my older women clients have had increases by 16% in their bone mass in less than one year.All our clients only train slow- Works well for us. Jeff

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spud

Repetition Performance is the single most important factor when it comes to thinking about safe, lifelong training.

Repetition Performance is the most overlooked part of strength training as far as most people are concerned. They get caught up in what exercises? How many sets? What split? What % of my 1RM should I use? What equipment should I train with? What brand of protein shake? etc etc.

Yet they've gone straight passed the repetition, the fundamental building block of any workout. Without reps, you have nothing.

As Jeff's post shows, you can produce life changing results and punish the muscles (well, work them adequately!), without punishing the bones or joints etc. Hard on the muscles but soft and gentle on the joints.

If I had to train my Mother (60) or my Grandfather (87), there is no way in hell that they would be doing Olympic Lifts, a single rep max or plyometrics of any kind.

Whilst I wouldn't impose a specific cadence upon them, I would demonstrate to them roughly what speed of movement I wanted them to use, and I would explain about not firing out of the starting position, or slamming into the locked out position, smooth turnarounds etc. I would leave them with the thought:

"If in doubt, go slower, not faster."
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Waynes

Switzerland

As most know I am not that for the slow reps, but if you are like I said buy Ellingtons book Big, you will get great results.

marcrph wrote:
Extremely S-L-O-W reps are tougher and seem to require more balance than a 10/5 rep cadence.

When I shattered my right hand recently, the ONLY rep speed that did not cause immediate pain was ESR. 1 pound felt like 1 ton in my right hand, and caused severe pain with regular rep speed, whereas 5 pounds could be done with ESR with little pain.

Landau hit on something recently, and it is a shame HIT does not promote this: namely that a properly conducted HIT program may allow for one to train well into advanced years, whereas other program forms may not.


Yup ESR or slower reps would not hurt your strained hand, because there is not that much tension put on the muscles with the slower reps, thus why would the muscle need to grow bigger and stronger if it was not worked hard ???

Wayne
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southbeach

spud wrote:
Repetition Performance is the single most important factor when it comes to thinking about safe, lifelong training.

Repetition Performance is the most overlooked part of strength training as far as most people are concerned. They get caught up in what exercises? How many sets? What split? What % of my 1RM should I use? What equipment should I train with? What brand of protein shake? etc etc.

Yet they've gone straight passed the repetition, the fundamental building block of any workout. Without reps, you have nothing.

As Jeff's post shows, you can produce life changing results and punish the muscles (well, work them adequately!), without punishing the bones or joints etc. Hard on the muscles but soft and gentle on the joints.

If I had to train my Mother (60) or my Grandfather (87), there is no way in hell that they would be doing Olympic Lifts, a single rep max or plyometrics of any kind.

Whilst I wouldn't impose a specific cadence upon them, I would demonstrate to them roughly what speed of movement I wanted them to use, and I would explain about not firing out of the starting position, or slamming into the locked out position, smooth turnarounds etc. I would leave them with the thought:

"If in doubt, go slower, not faster."


Would you have your grandmother do superfast reps?

I agree cadence is very important but i place FORM at the top of the file! Form is the single most important factor. In second place is WEIGHT. Third place cadence. That's my ranking..
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Waynes

Switzerland

southbeach wrote:
spud wrote:
Repetition Performance is the single most important factor when it comes to thinking about safe, lifelong training.

Repetition Performance is the most overlooked part of strength training as far as most people are concerned. They get caught up in what exercises? How many sets? What split? What % of my 1RM should I use? What equipment should I train with? What brand of protein shake? etc etc.

Yet they've gone straight passed the repetition, the fundamental building block of any workout. Without reps, you have nothing.

As Jeff's post shows, you can produce life changing results and punish the muscles (well, work them adequately!), without punishing the bones or joints etc. Hard on the muscles but soft and gentle on the joints.

If I had to train my Mother (60) or my Grandfather (87), there is no way in hell that they would be doing Olympic Lifts, a single rep max or plyometrics of any kind.

Whilst I wouldn't impose a specific cadence upon them, I would demonstrate to them roughly what speed of movement I wanted them to use, and I would explain about not firing out of the starting position, or slamming into the locked out position, smooth turnarounds etc. I would leave them with the thought:

"If in doubt, go slower, not faster."

Would you have your grandmother do superfast reps?

I agree cadence is very important but i place FORM at the top of the file! Form is the single most important factor. In second place is WEIGHT. Third place cadence. That's my ranking..


If you are going to place form at the top of your file, that means you are going to have about the least tension on the muscles, thur you will find it very hard to gain size and strength. This is not an opinion its a fact.

Wayne
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admnautilus

Washington, USA

Here is a force curve based on speed- interesting when looking at torque that the faster you move the less work being done according to this research.
The tension last longer and is much higher at 60 degrees per second than at 120 degrees pewr second. Apparently this Cybex machine has a bias towards slower speed worked into the software. Maybe it has not been in the same classroom as Wayne. Jeff
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fantombe

Waynes wrote:
Yup ESR or slower reps would not hurt your strained hand, because there is not that much tension put on the muscles with the slower reps, thus why would the muscle need to grow bigger and stronger if it was not worked hard ???

Wayne


And yet somehow they do. Weird.
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fantombe

Waynes wrote:
If you are going to place form at the top of your file, that means you are going to have about the least tension on the muscles, thur you will find it very hard to gain size and strength. This is not an opinion its a fact.


And yet people training for it in this way don't find it very hard to gain size and strength. Weird.

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spud

southbeach wrote:
I agree cadence is very important but i place FORM at the top of the file! Form is the single most important factor. In second place is WEIGHT. Third place cadence. That's my ranking..


Please note that at the top of my post I said that:

"Repetition Performance is the single most important factor when it comes to thinking about safe, lifelong training."

For me, form, cadence, range of motion, body position/alignment, breathing etc all come under the umbrella of Repetition Performance.
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Mr. Strong

Waynes wrote:
As most know I am not that for the slow reps, but if you are like I said buy Ellingtons book Big, you will get great results.

marcrph wrote:
Extremely S-L-O-W reps are tougher and seem to require more balance than a 10/5 rep cadence.

When I shattered my right hand recently, the ONLY rep speed that did not cause immediate pain was ESR. 1 pound felt like 1 ton in my right hand, and caused severe pain with regular rep speed, whereas 5 pounds could be done with ESR with little pain.

Landau hit on something recently, and it is a shame HIT does not promote this: namely that a properly conducted HIT program may allow for one to train well into advanced years, whereas other program forms may not.

Yup ESR or slower reps would not hurt your strained hand, because there is not that much tension put on the muscles with the slower reps, thus why would the muscle need to grow bigger and stronger if it was not worked hard ???

Wayne



Wayne, you like to contradict yourself don't you.
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rtestes

Mississippi, USA

Only Dr. Darden can answer for himself, but I surmise that there was so much resistance to a 15 second rep that it couldn't be sold to the general public. His earlier books seemed rooted to the slower reps. Now he seems to have moved to the more generally accepted 3/3 cadence.

I would like to hear his expanded feelings about the important of cadence and how he determines why one trainee would response to the slower cadence over a 4/4 or 3/3 cadence.
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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

admnautilus wrote:
Here is a force curve based on speed- interesting when looking at torque that the faster you move the less work being done according to this research.

The tension last longer and is much higher at 60 degrees per second than at 120 degrees pewr second. Apparently this Cybex machine has a bias towards slower speed worked into the software. Maybe it has not been in the same classroom as Wayne. Jeff


Hi Jeff,

While the graphs you posted are too small to read on my computer, if those are from a CYBEX isokinetic Dynamometer, then the a faster speed would always produce a "lower force" reading, since that is how Isokinetic readings work.

Allowing an increase in speed is like using a lighter weight in isokinetics.

And Power Output would also "always" be higher, on a higher force, greater duration effort, since a slower speed will be outputting power longer, and at a higher rate.

The differences between "isokinetic" and "isotonic" are well known, but seem to confuse many regarding speed and output comparisons between the two.

Not sure what you mean about Wayne being in the classroom, but the teacher who was in the classroom could certainly explain it very easily.

When studying the ability of a muscle to produce force against a load, there are "many" things you MUST know before you assess what it is you are observing.

If the graph you present is of isokinetic observations, they have "nothing" to do with "isotonic" observations, in that they will demonstrate very different force, power, speed, and duration results.

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coomo

spud wrote:
southbeach wrote:
I agree cadence is very important but i place FORM at the top of the file! Form is the single most important factor. In second place is WEIGHT. Third place cadence. That's my ranking..

Please note that at the top of my post I said that:

"Repetition Performance is the single most important factor when it comes to thinking about safe, lifelong training."

For me, form, cadence, range of motion, body position/alignment, breathing etc all come under the umbrella of Repetition Performance.


guys your both agreeing here! And i do as well, great post spud.
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Waynes

Switzerland

fantombe wrote:
Waynes wrote:
Yup ESR or slower reps would not hurt your strained hand, because there is not that much tension put on the muscles with the slower reps, thus why would the muscle need to grow bigger and stronger if it was not worked hard ???

Wayne


And yet somehow they do. Weird.


And yet somehow they dont. Weirder

But marcrph stated that when he shattered his right hand recently, the ONLY rep speed that did not cause immediate pain was ESR, becouse in the slow reps you dont use all your strength, thus put less strain/tenstion on the muscles.

marcrph wrote:
Extremely S-L-O-W reps are tougher and seem to require more balance than a 10/5 rep cadence.

When I shattered my right hand recently, the ONLY rep speed that did not cause immediate pain was ESR.


fantombe wrote:
Waynes wrote:
If you are going to place form at the top of your file, that means you are going to have about the least tension on the muscles, thur you will find it very hard to gain size and strength. This is not an opinion its a fact.

And yet people training for it in this way don't find it very hard to gain size and strength. Weird.


Never said they did not gain size or strength. Weirdish.

Wayne
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