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Rogue H.I.T - What is it?
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Iamlegend

I have heard a bit about this training system but dont know exactly how to apply it.
Im intrested to hear from anyone who has tried this out and find out the pros and cons of it.

Lets try and keep this civil guys nothing constructive to say just save it

cheers

Steve
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the_iron_goose

Well there's a fellow who comes around here now then, and he'll be posting things here and there of such nature. If my memory serves me correctly, he goes by the screen name of Bioforce. You may just want to look him up and see what information he has.
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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

stephend wrote:
I have heard a bit about this training system but dont know exactly how to apply it.
Im intrested to hear from anyone who has tried this out and find out the pros and cons of it.

Lets try and keep this civil guys nothing constructive to say just save it

cheers

Steve


Hi Stephen,

Rogue HIT is an INTENSITY based training program for the more advanced and experienced trainee. It is not the program of the month and is only reasonable for someone who has reached difficult plateaus in their normal SSTF style training.

It is a Multi-Set system that employs rep ranges, loads and performance parameters that address high levels of both Tension and Fatigue.

It is not based on achieving "failure", but each set has a goal of setting either a PR, (personal record) or a RM (rep maximum). Focus is on continuous and small progressions. It is a low volume, split routine where most will train Leg/Torso 1 x a week and Upper Body 2 x a week (or less depending on your individual recovery rate.

Each session has only 2-3 key exercises performed to RM for 20, 10, and 5 reps, or 30, 15, 8 reps. No specific set has any more importance than the other. They all serve a function.

Most follow a schedule of similar to this:

Mon = Chest/Back
Tues = Rest
Wed = Legs/Torso
Thurs = Rest
Friday = Arms/Shoulder
Sat/Sun = Rest

It is called Rogue HIT because it is based on HIGH INTENSITY, but does not adhere to all the beginning and intermediate instructions to most Classical HIT routines.

Again, IT IS NOT a program that will benefit you unless you are already at the highest conditioning level, and have sufficient experience to be able to perform high effort and high force training.

Since it is a departure from "slower rep" force applications, it may take a conditioning period before you can begin applying full force in all exercises.
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coomo

stephend wrote:
I have heard a bit about this training system but dont know exactly how to apply it.
Im intrested to hear from anyone who has tried this out and find out the pros and cons of it.

Lets try and keep this civil guys nothing constructive to say just save it

cheers

Steve

Rogue hit? more like rogue shit! basically it consists of a bloke with big arms,spewing nonsense and throwing weights around in a particulary hazodous fashion in his back yard, then spending the rest of his waking hours posting pseudo science on this board, that only impresses his resident stalker in the welsh valleys! rogue hit? my arse!Sorry i couldnt keep it civil, i couldnt resist.

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natemason5

Ontario, CAN

Steve
Rogue hit? more like rogue shit! basically it consists of a bloke with big arms,spewing nonsense and throwing weights around in a particulary hazodous fashion in his back yard, then spending the rest of his waking hours posting pseudo science on this board, that only impresses his resident stalker in the welsh valleys! rogue hit? my arse!Sorry i couldnt keep it civil, i couldnt resist.

[/quote]

Great response by Bio-Force, then you couldn't resist. You haven't even been training for a year and you sound like a seasoned veteran. I don't know Bio-Force, but his response to the original question was fact-based and likely appreciated by the original poster.



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Iamlegend

Hi Bio-force

If you had limited equipment available e.g Power rack,barbell dumbbells and a bench what exercises would you recommend for this type of split programme?


Steve
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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

stephend wrote:
Hi Bio-force

If you had limited equipment available e.g Power rack,barbell dumbbells and a bench what exercises would you recommend for this type of split programme?


Steve


Chest/Back

Bench Press
Weighted Chins or Barbell Rows

Legs/Torso

Squats or Deadlifts
Reverse Loaded Squats (if pulldown avaialble) or hanging knee raises w/db held with the feet

Standing Calf but with at least 5 sets of 10 reps instead of the other rep schedule.

Arms Shoulders

Standing BB Curl
Lying Triceps press or Overhead Barbell Press

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Iamlegend

Bioforce

So do you just stck to one exercise per bodypart as you have outlined?

It does seem to be very low in volume.
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HIT

Norway

BIO-FORCE wrote:
stephend wrote:
Hi Bio-force

If you had limited equipment available e.g Power rack,barbell dumbbells and a bench what exercises would you recommend for this type of split programme?


Steve

Chest/Back

Bench Press
Weighted Chins or Barbell Rows

Legs/Torso

Squats or Deadlifts
Reverse Loaded Squats (if pulldown avaialble) or hanging knee raises w/db held with the feet

Standing Calf but with at least 5 sets of 10 reps instead of the other rep schedule.

Arms Shoulders

Standing BB Curl
Lying Triceps press or Overhead Barbell Press



Can/should one do extra exercises? What kind of intensity should one use if extra exercises is possible on this program?

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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

stephend wrote:
Bioforce

So do you just stck to one exercise per bodypart as you have outlined?

It does seem to be very low in volume.


Yes, for the most part 1 Key exercise per bodypart, and while some seem to think it is "high volume", it is not.

It "IS" however HIGH EFFORT/Intensity, and due to that level of stimulus requires a split routine, and extended recovery.

Now if you have the energy and inclination, you can also perfrom a few "pumpy" type actions at the end.

For example on Chest and Back day, I do a Single Set NTF of Db Pullovers, Cable Spyders (my special version of FLYES),
Dead Stop Bwt Chins, and Dumbbell Rows.

All are rather heavy, but single sets and at least 15 reps.

But these are not the focus, but more like dessert.
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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

HIT wrote:
BIO-FORCE wrote:
stephend wrote:
Hi Bio-force

If you had limited equipment available e.g Power rack,barbell dumbbells and a bench what exercises would you recommend for this type of split programme?


Steve

Chest/Back

Bench Press
Weighted Chins or Barbell Rows

Legs/Torso

Squats or Deadlifts
Reverse Loaded Squats (if pulldown avaialble) or hanging knee raises w/db held with the feet

Standing Calf but with at least 5 sets of 10 reps instead of the other rep schedule.

Arms Shoulders

Standing BB Curl
Lying Triceps press or Overhead Barbell Press



Can/should one do extra exercises? What kind of intensity should one use if extra exercises is possible on this program?



As mentioned above, you should use the way you feel to gauge any extra actions.

Intensity should be medium and I like to be more "restrictive" to form to "get the feel" and the "pump". Restrictive in the form dept to me means using the PAF from the heavy sets to perform more what some might call "strict" or "stricter" reps.

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Iamlegend

Bioforce

Would you mind telling me what results you have acheived with your trainees using this method please, and why you think this is more productive over more mainstream H.I.T?

looking at this programme i cant understand why you think it should be restricted to advanced trainees.
I would think any beginner trainee could benefit from this as well.

cheers

Steve
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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

stephend wrote:
Bioforce

Would you mind telling me what results you have acheived with your trainees using this method please, and why you think this is more productive over more mainstream H.I.T?

looking at this programme i cant understand why you think it should be restricted to advanced trainees.
I would think any beginner trainee could benefit from this as well.

cheers

Steve


Hi Steve,

Actually the primary prinicipals if employed under the watchful eye of a competent trainer certainly could be used at any stage.

My advice to it being more advanced is based on the knowlege that there are many levels of conditioning and expereince out there, and this program is one of the Highest Forces, and Intensities.

To employ these to the best result, the trainee need be VERY Familiar with how to handle Loads of this level safely and without injury.

My advice is also to make sure no one thinks this is just something to jump into and try after seeing a video or two of some of my training, since that could be very hazardous.

This system usually take a "conditioning period" just to be able to begin applying it with "full force".

If you decide to use it, please make sure and read the information on the Forum (Rogue HIT) and ask question if you are not sure.

Safe High Level Progress is the goal.

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Waynes

Switzerland

Hi there Steven,

Here are some of my results which you asked for by PM.

http://www.drdarden.com/...448323&pageNo=0

http://www.drdarden.com/...ic.do?id=472599

Seems like you train in your home, you need to get a pulley system.

The below is just what you might think of doing, as you asked. What I call supersetted is, exercise one, rest three minutes, exercise two, rest three minutes, exercise one, rest three minutes, exercise two, rest three minutes exercise one, rest three minutes, exercise two.

You know from the PM what weight I up on 25% and then 15% with is roughly on set two and three, I took this from Johns original writing of his training, and they worked perfect for me.

Done for 12 weeks.

Monday,
Arms and Shoulders,

Seated one DB curls supersetted with DB triceps extension, 30/15/10.
Lateral raise 30/15/10

Wednesday,
Legs,

Squats supersetted with Johns Reverse Loaded Squats 20/15/10/5

Friday,
Chest and upper back
Bench press supersetted with Barbell Rows or pulldowns 15/10/5/20

Sunday,
You could add dead lift 12/10/5.

Calves as John states, three times per week.

In the above you are working each bodypart twice per week, first very hard directly and second hard indirectly.

You might notice that I changed the number of reps on exersices; this will be explained on my next post.

Steven you stated it looks low in volume, when you get the weights right, and this might be trial and error for a few goes, you will find out from the hardness, pump and soreness in the morning this for now is all you will need for ??? Six to 12 months of full progress.

As I stated in my original PM, best start with weights on all sets that a quite a bit lower {say 20%} that you could do these reps for. As the faster {which you should be accustomed to from just doing a Westside program}and high reps will be all the stimulation that is needed for size and strength gains.

Remember please progress in weight very slowly, do not rush it or gains in both size and strength will not be so good. Please for the best size and strength gains, you will need to eat cleanish and big; I eat about 23 calories per pound of bodyfat per day.

Please let us know how your first workout goes, the first one where you get all the weights right.

This is not the program for the average Joe, as this program when you get it right, is the most brutal I have ever done, as its so dammed hard to constantly do each and every rep as fast as you can, as you have to go all out all the time.

More later on the way I do the sets later, its in my pinion the icing on the cake.

NEARLY FORGOT, AS ALL KNOW THIS IS JOHNS PROGRAM, and I only put in in-put as you asked; you can take it or leave it.

Wayne


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Waynes

Switzerland

The pros are you will feel fantastic and make progress higher than you dreams, and you will be doing the most up to date, sophisticated in vogue program ever, cons, it will be the most barbarous program you will ever do.

Some of my lifts which you asked for, from 6/19/08 are below, and all can be proved by video, bets please this time, and I will give out 1000 to 1 odds on me doing what I state I can. {and I am NOT being smug posting these, as lots have asked me.

They are not World records, then again they are as I have not heard of anyone at my bodyweight that can do these number, but who cares, the REAL point is how much each of us can up their 10RM or whatever}

So if as I said you equate far stronger muscles with bigger muscles this program is a must.

And these are ALL ONE handed.

ONE handed nautilus super pullover,
30 x 76.5, 15 x 96.5, 10 x 106.5,
20 x 90, 15 x 95, 10 x 100,
15 x 100, 10 x 110, 5 x 120

ONE handed nautilus multi triceps,
30 x 76, 15 x 91, 10 x 101,
20 x 90, 15 x 100, 10 x 110,
15 x 100, 10 x 116, 5 x 126,

ONE handed nautilus multi biceps,

Start,
85 x 20
95 x 15
120 x 10

Finnish,
135 20
145 x 15
153 x 10

Start,
80 x 30
100 x 80
130 x 10

Finnish,
100x 30
130 x 15
150 x 10

ONE handed seated DB curls,
30 x 38, 15 x 43, 10 x 46,
20 x 38, 15 x 44, 10 x 48,
15 x 46, 10 x 51, 5 x 56.

On the DB I am doing nearly the same on the 30/15/10, because this is a cycle ahead.

I have not done free weight curl for over 10 years, so the numbers are not YET what I am looking for, but are what I am doing right now after nearly a year on the seated DM curls, progressing nicely, cant wait to hit 40pounds x 30.

These 30 reps on the DB curls with the ONE leg, leg press must be the hardest things I have ever done.

Wayne
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

coomo wrote:
Rogue hit? more like rogue shit! basically it consists of a bloke with big arms,spewing nonsense and throwing weights around in a particulary hazodous fashion in his back yard, then spending the rest of his waking hours posting pseudo science on this board, that only impresses his resident stalker in the welsh valleys! rogue hit? my arse!Sorry i couldnt keep it civil, i couldnt resist.


natemason5 wrote:
Great response by Bio-Force, then you couldn't resist. You haven't even been training for a year and you sound like a seasoned veteran. I don't know Bio-Force, but his response to the original question was fact-based and likely appreciated by the original poster.


Agreed. Even if you don't agree with this method, the thread was started by someone with the intention of learning more about it. We should give them their space.

I may not agree with some of what John says, but he did an excellent job of qualifying who should and who shouldn't undertake this protocol.

Scott
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Michael Petrella

Ontario, CAN

stephend wrote:
Bioforce

Would you mind telling me what results you have acheived with your trainees using this method please, and why you think this is more productive over more mainstream H.I.T?

looking at this programme i cant understand why you think it should be restricted to advanced trainees.
I would think any beginner trainee could benefit from this as well.

cheers

Steve


Hello Steve,

I did a full case study with John a few months ago because I wanted to learn about his system. I would be happy to share what I learned and my results with you. You can PM me or I can answer anything out in the open on the board. Makes no difference to me.
Best of luck.

Michael

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Jeff60

Hi Steve,
There are many on this website that question Mr. Caslers methods. Personally, I find the title Rogue HIT a bit of a misnomer, simply because - by his own admission - John does not follow many (any?) of the fundamentals of HIT. Perhaps he should name his method Rogue Training.

I don't doubt that his method (particularly up to 30 reps a set) takes a lot of effort and John's physique is very good but I would argue about the relationships he makes to the term intensity and strongly question his assertion that Rogue Training would take one beyond the limits SSTF because his model of SSTF is waaayyyy out of date. To constantly state this is akin to saying a modern car goes faster than an old car (say 1950's) when no one really drives a 50's car for anything other than exhibit.

Additionally, I disagree with the speed of rep he utilises and the lack of controlled form he has demonstrated in the past.

At the end of the day you have to decide what you want... My counter argument to Rogue is that I feel that "Classic HIT" is a much more balanced, physically safer (i.e. less likelihood of injury) and logical system.

Hope this helps you make an informed decision on how you want to train.
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Larry T

North Carolina, USA

bigmikep wrote:
Hello Steve,

I did a full case study with John a few months ago because I wanted to learn about his system. I would be happy to share what I learned and my results with you. You can PM me or I can answer anything out in the open on the board. Makes no difference to me.
Best of luck.

Michael



Michael,

I'm in the beginning stages of using John's program. Today I'll be doing SLDL 20-10-5 supersetting with Leg Extensions 20-10-5, finishing with calf raises. I'm still experiementing with what equipment to use and starting weights. It's too early to share results, but it's a fresh approach and my initial experience is that my muscles got the brunt of the work with less general systemic fatigue than I usually experience with SSFT, which is how I've trained 95% of the time for the last 25 years. I'm still feeling my shoulder/arm workout from 3 days ago.

I'd be interested in your experience with the program. Your experience may be useful, and added to the experiences of others, valuable insight may be had.

I agree with the OP that John gave a very concise answer about the program, and like clockwork he got flamed for no reason. My experience with John through PMs has been cordial and informative and I haven't been subjected to the imperialistic dismissive attitude that many of the other "experts" here display. And I wasn't asked to buy anything. Agree or disagree, but let's be fair.
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gerry-hitman

Waynes wrote:
The pros are you will feel fantastic and make progress higher than you dreams, and you will be doing the most up to date, sophisticated in vogue program ever, cons, it will be the most barbarous program you will ever do.


LOL!
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gerry-hitman

Jeff60 wrote:
Hi Steve,
There are many on this website that question Mr. Caslers methods. Personally, I find the title Rogue HIT a bit of a misnomer, simply because - by his own admission - John does not follow many (any?) of the fundamentals of HIT. Perhaps he should name his method Rogue Training.


Yes Rogue fits it perfect as it has nothing to do with HIT; and the one promoting it is a rogue promoting this on a HIT site. All that train this way will be called Rogues.

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johnmin

Bio,
I'm bailing out on the questions thread as this is a more appropriate place for my questions.

Reps and Weights.
Let say on the first set, PR is 20 reps at 250. What would the working weight be and what would progession look like moving forward.

Thanks
John
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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

Jeff60 wrote:
Hi Steve,
There are many on this website that question Mr. Caslers methods. Personally, I find the title Rogue HIT a bit of a misnomer, simply because - by his own admission - John does not follow many (any?) of the fundamentals of HIT. Perhaps he should name his method Rogue Training.


Hi Jeff,

I have never stated that Rogue HIT is Classical HIT, in fact the name implies that it is not. It IS High Intensity Training by definition. It has a magnitude and density of power expression that would qualify it as Extremely High Intensity Training. (XHIT?)

Jeff60 wrote:
I don't doubt that his method (particularly up to 30 reps a set) takes a lot of effort and John's physique is very good but I would argue about the relationships he makes to the term intensity and strongly question his assertion that Rogue Training would take one beyond the limits SSTF because his model of SSTF is waaayyyy out of date. To constantly state this is akin to saying a modern car goes faster than an old car (say 1950's) when no one really drives a 50's car for anything other than exhibit.


By any past or current model, The level of intensity is HIGHER. The only criteria on which it cannot be claimed higher, is that of recovery periods between sets, and those are purposeful.

While some in the HIT community take issue when I suggest the differences, those difference are the result of accurate description of INTENSITY to the model. We have already covered much of that ground, and I have a tendency to be congruent to terms and their meanings. If, in fact some believe in MSTF as a HIT model for more advanced training, then we are in complete agreement.

Jeff60 wrote:
Additionally, I disagree with the speed of rep he utilises and the lack of controlled form he has demonstrated in the past.


The speed of a rep, as I have stated quite often is a function of the goal of the rep or set. The term speed, and its implementation to a rep is also a function to the load used. So SPEED is not a negative term. Speed combines with load to create the actual load to the muscles during an exercise.

The tendency of Classical HIT is to generalize to the beginner/intermediate. This cannot be a bad idea in general since safety in training is important. But one needs to understand that some trainees transition to advanced and have the capabilities to employ more advanced training methods that involve higher loads and tensions, and with those higher levels comes a different "risk/reward" ratio. If this is approached progressively and with proper intent it is more productive and safe.

I would disagree with you suggestion that I demonstrate "lack of control", for using heavy loads for repetitions that load the muscles as desired demonstrates "exceptional" control. It has NEVER been suggested that beginners or anyone should move to this level unless at very advanced and or competitive levels.

Jeff60 wrote:

At the end of the day you have to decide what you want... My counter argument to Rogue is that I feel that "Classic HIT" is a much more balanced, physically safer (i.e. less likelihood of injury) and logical system.

Hope this helps you make an informed decision on how you want to train.


It would seem that you envision the program as a general program for everyone and I don't know how to make it any clearer, that I suggest it only to those in the advanced competitive levels. It could be considered a specialization program and is NOT competitive to Classical HIT as a general fitness and light bodybuilding program, and is not meant to be.

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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

johnmin wrote:
Bio,
I'm bailing out on the questions thread as this is a more appropriate place for my questions.

Reps and Weights.
Let say on the first set, PR is 20 reps at 250. What would the working weight be and what would progession look like moving forward.

Thanks
John


Hi John,

All the weights in ALL sets are "working weights". Each set is as important as the other, in fact, in many ways the 20 rep set is more important initially since most don't have a well formed PR in that rep number.

The loads themselves for each set should sort themselves out within a few training sessions. They are also dependant on the exercise.

In squats, I might make these jumps 310 x 20, 390 x 10, 430 x 5

In close grip benches: 205 x 20, 240 x 10, 280 x 5

Pulldowns 280 x 20, 310 x 15, 350 x 10.

One of the driving elements, is that on that "first" set, you can "always" squeeze out another rep the next workout. In a few workouts, you have increase 3-4 reps (with a heavy load) which translates into a rep gain in the set above it.

It is simply a mechanism that allows that a progression in a lower set causes improvement in the set above it. This type of density cannot be supported except to a highly conditioned trainee.
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Waynes

Switzerland

Rogue HIT brings amazing results, however I think I have found a way that puts the icing on the cake.

Hope John does not mind me mentioning what I found out for trial and error and the way I work his program now. If John had not fallen out with me I think he would have welcomed my below suggestion with open arms, as he likes people experimenting and such.

At first I did the 30/15/10 for about 6 months progress was fantastic, but like all programmes it stated to get a bit monotonous, so I then did 30/15/10 for 12 weeks and then 20/15/10 for 12 weeks and so on back and forth, progress was still great for another ??? 9 months.

Then things were getting very hard, then I thought, why not add one more sequence 15/10/5/20 and also cut the weeks I do each sequence down.

So now I do 30/15/10 for 8 weeks, then 20/15/10 for 8 weeks and then 15/10/5/20 for 8 weeks, and when you go back to the first very hard 30/15/10, these are far far far more easy then when you left them 16 weeks ago.

Actually when I went back to the 30/15/10 on the multi triceps they were far too ease, as I remember the last time I did these they were getting ho so hard.

This also adds variety, and hits your muscle fibers with very high reps and very low, and gives also the all important change.

Wayne
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