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Wasting Time with Higher Reps?
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Hitit

Since I have issues with my back, I stay away from squats, deadlifts and even pull overs as they all seem to aggrevate me.

I've found that I can usually tolerate a high rep sceme with lighter weight in these exercises usually a 4/4 rep speed to 20 reps total.

I would take these high rep exercises to a challenging point (up to 20 reps), but probably not full exhaustion like my other usual exercises.

Is there any real benefit to this higher rep scheme as far as my gaining strength or is it just a waste of exercise time? I was going to use them as a part of a pre-exhaust method.

Ex. High 20 rep pullover to a normal pull down at 8-10 reps. Same with the leg extention to the high 20 rep squat?

Thanks!
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stevecollins33

High reps are not associated with strength. However, they are associated with hypertrophy - especially for the lower body. So yo're not wasting your time.
Like every other rep scheme, it will work for a limited period and then you'll get stale.
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dhitquinn

Hitit wrote:
Since I have issues with my back, I stay away from squats, deadlifts and even pull overs as they all seem to aggrevate me.

I've found that I can usually tolerate a high rep sceme with lighter weight in these exercises usually a 4/4 rep speed to 20 reps total.

I would take these high rep exercises to a challenging point (up to 20 reps), but probably not full exhaustion like my other usual exercises.

Is there any real benefit to this higher rep scheme as far as my gaining strength or is it just a waste of exercise time? I was going to use them as a part of a pre-exhaust method.

Ex. High 20 rep pullover to a normal pull down at 8-10 reps. Same with the leg extention to the high 20 rep squat?

Thanks!


read the book supersquats by randall strossen, you are definitely not wasting your time there. All folk who done high reps in this book increased their max squats dont believe the low rep only for strength crap

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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

While you are not wasting your time doing a 20 rep set, you are if you are wasting time using 4/4 rep speed.

All you will get is fatigue.

Reps that slow will NOT allow a great enough load to stimulate much strength (or even hypertrophy).
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overfiftylifter

Another option is the use of Matrix Training. This type of routine uses lighter weights in a mix of full and partial repetitions. The use of 21's is a simple example with seven reps bottom half of a movement, seven at the top half and finish with seven full reps. The rep speed recommended is a little faster but done with complete control to perform the multiple turnarounds. There are over 36 different movement patterns to prevent boredom. I turned to this type of training due to past injuries and safety.

Overfiftylifter-Dr. Laura has posted a brief video on YouTube of Matrix Training
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Waynes

Switzerland

You looking for just strength, or size and strength ???

Wow that is a long set, 4/4 x 20 reps = 160 minutes or 2 minutes 40 seconds, I think this could work for a few weeks only, then go back to it every six months maybe.

As set of 20 reps using ??? 80% would take me about 20 - 23 seconds, as I am wanting to put the highest tensions on the fast muscle fibers, but you will be using them in a more endurance way.

Wayne
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DownUnderLifter

overfiftylifter wrote:
Another option is the use of Matrix Training. This type of routine uses lighter weights in a mix of full and partial repetitions. The use of 21's is a simple example with seven reps bottom half of a movement, seven at the top half and finish with seven full reps. The rep speed recommended is a little faster but done with complete control to perform the multiple turnarounds. There are over 36 different movement patterns to prevent boredom. I turned to this type of training due to past injuries and safety.

Overfiftylifter-Dr. Laura has posted a brief video on YouTube of Matrix Training



Hey over50

Do you have a link to that video?

Cheers
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gmlongo

Connecticut, USA

DownUnderLifter wrote:
Hey over50

Do you have a link to that video?

Cheers


I think this is the one he is talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=YvznQfF8vQk
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johnbhoy

Armed Forces - Europe

It's good to see someone else knows about Ronald Laura' training system as it rarely recieves a mention these days.

His books are hard to come by here in the UK and may well be out of print now.
The matrix techniques certainly can make an exercise very intense with a surprisingly light weight. Personally i had to reduce the reps a bit as well as the overall volume. Definitely worth a look if you can get a hold of the books.
Try typing Aussie Mega Pump into your browser.
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Hitit

Waynes wrote:
You looking for just strength, or size and strength ???

Wow that is a long set, 4/4 x 20 reps = 160 minutes or 2 minutes 40 seconds, I think this could work for a few weeks only, then go back to it every six months maybe.

As set of 20 reps using ??? 80% would take me about 20 - 23 seconds, as I am wanting to put the highest tensions on the fast muscle fibers, but you will be using them in a more endurance way.

Wayne


Yes it is a long set I know....The 4/4 speed feels good on my joints however and the amount of weight that I feel comfortable at this point leaves me about 20 reps. Maybe I can try to reduce the number later hopeing that my body will adjust and the lower reps won't aggrevate me. Like I said, it's just these exercises particular that cause the discomfort, my other ones are lower reps all out to exhuastion...

Thx
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southbeach

BIO-FORCE wrote:
While you are not wasting your time doing a 20 rep set, you are if you are wasting time using 4/4 rep speed.

All you will get is fatigue.

Reps that slow will NOT allow a great enough load to stimulate much strength (or even hypertrophy).


you keep saying this over and over again but the fact is the '20 rep' set you espouse is LIGHTER compared to what one could use for 8 reps in traditional HIT style. At ANY speed. I have no idea why you would want to 'waste' valuable physiologic resources with the lighter weight.

The weight one can use for 20 reps ANY STYLE will always be LIGHTER than what one could use for LESS REPETITIONS.

That's an obvious fact!

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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

southbeach wrote:
BIO-FORCE wrote:
While you are not wasting your time doing a 20 rep set, you are if you are wasting time using 4/4 rep speed.

All you will get is fatigue.

Reps that slow will NOT allow a great enough load to stimulate much strength (or even hypertrophy).

you keep saying this over and over again but the fact is the '20 rep' set you espouse is LIGHTER compared to what one could use for 8 reps in traditional HIT style. At ANY speed. I have no idea why you would want to 'waste' valuable physiologic resources with the lighter weight.

The weight one can use for 20 reps ANY STYLE will always be LIGHTER than what one could use for LESS REPETITIONS.

That's an obvious fact!



Only obvious (and in error) to the uninformed and inexperienced.

How much can you squat for "your" 8 rep set of 4/4? Please post a video so the speed can be substantiated.

If you think that you can't get 20 full effort reps with that same load, you are incorrect. (or maybe allergic to High Effort Work)

It might behoove you to post on subjects of which you have knowledge and or experience.

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Jym1985

BIO-FORCE wrote:
While you are not wasting your time doing a 20 rep set, you are if you are wasting time using 4/4 rep speed.

All you will get is fatigue.

Reps that slow will NOT allow a great enough load to stimulate much strength (or even hypertrophy).


I hope you are not suggesting that someone with a bad back should perform squats with a fast rep speed.
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southbeach

BIO-FORCE wrote:
southbeach wrote:
BIO-FORCE wrote:
While you are not wasting your time doing a 20 rep set, you are if you are wasting time using 4/4 rep speed.

All you will get is fatigue.

Reps that slow will NOT allow a great enough load to stimulate much strength (or even hypertrophy).

you keep saying this over and over again but the fact is the '20 rep' set you espouse is LIGHTER compared to what one could use for 8 reps in traditional HIT style. At ANY speed. I have no idea why you would want to 'waste' valuable physiologic resources with the lighter weight.

The weight one can use for 20 reps ANY STYLE will always be LIGHTER than what one could use for LESS REPETITIONS.

That's an obvious fact!



Only obvious (and in error) to the uninformed and inexperienced.

How much can you squat for "your" 8 rep set of 4/4? Please post a video so the speed can be substantiated.

If you think that you can't get 20 full effort reps with that same load, you are incorrect. (or maybe allergic to High Effort Work)

It might behoove you to post on subjects of which you have knowledge and or experience.



No, I don't think you can. i'm talking FULL squats, not stooping or any that crapola. Keep the tension on EACH rep at the top of movement (no resting lockout b/w reps). new concept, tension the entire time.

No, i don't think you can :)
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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

Jym1985 wrote:
BIO-FORCE wrote:
While you are not wasting your time doing a 20 rep set, you are if you are wasting time using 4/4 rep speed.

All you will get is fatigue.

Reps that slow will NOT allow a great enough load to stimulate much strength (or even hypertrophy).

I hope you are not suggesting that someone with a bad back should perform squats with a fast rep speed.


Anyone with a back injury SHOULD NEVER use a load, speed, or exercise that could cause injury.

That said, a SLOW REP speed on a squat with a HEAVY load is "EQUALLY if not MORE DANGEROUS" to someone performing squats, due to the high TUL to the spinal stabilizers. They function at their "OPTIMUM" when a normal speed is used.

However many interpret a normal speed as FAST.

Too many scramble their Squat Goals and somehow get caught is in a HEAVY WEIGHT goal that their Torsos are not conditioned for, but their legs and hips can manage.

THIS is one of the key reasons so many have "back injuries". It has nothing to do with normal speed reps.
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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

southbeach wrote:
No, I don't think you can. i'm talking FULL squats, not stooping or any that crapola. Keep the tension on EACH rep at the top of movement (no resting lockout b/w reps). new concept, tension the entire time.

No, i don't think you can :)


So really you have NO IDEA, are just specualting, and are reticent to display your video to support your contentions?

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southbeach

BIO-FORCE wrote:
southbeach wrote:
No, I don't think you can. i'm talking FULL squats, not stooping or any that crapola. Keep the tension on EACH rep at the top of movement (no resting lockout b/w reps). new concept, tension the entire time.

No, i don't think you can :)

So really you have NO IDEA, are just specualting, and are reticent to display your video to support your contentions?



i have no desire to fence with you or trade meaningless barbs.

when you post a vid of a real squat, straight bar azz to calf let me know.. i'll

not only match it, i'll add 10lbs :)




in the mean time, the point IS no one can use as much weight with 20 reps as they can with 8. so why is your first set 20+ reps???
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howard1976

What about strong range partials?
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johnbhoy

Armed Forces - Europe

howard1976 wrote:
What about strong range partials?

Do not go there, please.

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southbeach

howard1976 wrote:
What about strong range partials?


how partial is legit.. a millimeter?

an ton on the isometric is that partial enough for you??

you and i know partials are too arbitraty and fraught with error in form.

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johnbhoy

Armed Forces - Europe

southbeach wrote:
howard1976 wrote:
What about strong range partials?

how partial is legit.. a millimeter?

an ton on the isometric is that partial enough for you??

you and i know partials are too arbitraty and fraught with error in form.


Well put, it's a hell of a lot of weight for a tiny bit of muscle tension if you are working at the lockout end of a movement, not a good way to train.

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kayo

I've been exclusively training with Ron Laura's Matrix Principle training for four months, sets of full, partial, hold reps, running 20-close to 30 per set, 15-20 second rest between sets of four per movement, three movements per bodypart. The intensity is incredible, the burns and pumps constant, and at close to 65 the muscular growth both surprising and welcomed! What's more, all the old injuries are NOT acting up with lighter weights. It's doubtful I'll ever go back to lower reps. Also train an average six days weekly, altho Matrix cuts workout times way down. Cardio benefits are obvious.

I can't imagine Matrix is for everyone! In part because the pain barriers are intense. And the training density demanding.
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southbeach

johnbhoy wrote:
southbeach wrote:
howard1976 wrote:
What about strong range partials?

how partial is legit.. a millimeter?

an ton on the isometric is that partial enough for you??

you and i know partials are too arbitraty and fraught with error in form.


Well put, it's a hell of a lot of weight for a tiny bit of muscle tension if you are working at the lockout end of a movement, not a good way to train.



that's BS.

if you are that strong take it all the way down!

what does full range scare you so?
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johnbhoy

Armed Forces - Europe

kayo wrote:
I've been exclusively training with Ron Laura's Matrix Principle training for four months, sets of full, partial, hold reps, running 20-close to 30 per set, 15-20 second rest between sets of four per movement, three movements per bodypart. The intensity is incredible, the burns and pumps constant, and at close to 65 the muscular growth both surprising and welcomed! What's more, all the old injuries are NOT acting up with lighter weights. It's doubtful I'll ever go back to lower reps. Also train an average six days weekly, altho Matrix cuts workout times way down. Cardio benefits are obvious.

I can't imagine Matrix is for everyone! In part because the pain barriers are intense. And the training density demanding.


The intensity is incredible, especially on compound movements like leg press. I literally could not get out of a leg press machine for several minutes after a matrix style set.
It will not suit majority of gym rats though because of the lighter poundages. Less chance to show off.


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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

southbeach wrote:
BIO-FORCE wrote:
southbeach wrote:
No, I don't think you can. i'm talking FULL squats, not stooping or any that crapola. Keep the tension on EACH rep at the top of movement (no resting lockout b/w reps). new concept, tension the entire time.

No, i don't think you can :)

So really you have NO IDEA, are just specualting, and are reticent to display your video to support your contentions?



i have no desire to fence with you or trade meaningless barbs.

when you post a vid of a real squat, straight bar azz to calf let me know.. i'll

not only match it, i'll add 10lbs :)


No reason to postpone posting your squat, what does "my" squat have to do with yours?

southbeach wrote:
in the mean time, the point IS no one can use as much weight with 20 reps as they can with 8. so why is your first set 20+ reps???


No that IS NOT the point.

Go back and read the posts.

The point is performing 4/4 reps. I am waiting for you to post your video of your 8RM 4/4 squat.

If your not willing to "put up", then you know the alternative.



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