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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

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BobGeorge

In the 70's Arthur Jones wrote (in "The Best Kind of Exercise"), "The simple logic, the physical law, the theory, the research results, and the practical experience all indicate exactly the
same thing THE BEST TYPE OF EXERCISE is NEGATIVE ONLY".


Then in Advanced Max Contraction Training, John Little theorizes- "...the most important part of a negative-only set is the beginning of it when the muscle is in the fully contracted position." And he also writes, "positive repetitions are the least productive for size and strength."


Are we "wasting" our time doing the positive part of our reps?

In 1973 Jones planned on testing Negative-only vs Positive-only vs Positive/Negative for four weeks at a major university.

Did that ever happen?? (I couldn't find anything online)
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chasbari

Ohio, USA

I believe Deland High School had a competitive weight lifting team that trained negative only for a number of years and was undefeated during that time. If I remember correctly that when a new coach not under the influence of the negative only idea came in they suffered their first losses. I will see where I can dig up that reference.

I got my best results training negative only. It is brutally effective when done correctly. I believe Arthur felt the most dangerous point in the exercise was at the hand off after the assistants would finish lifting the weight for the trainee.

You can wear a lot of volunteers out training that way as there is a need for assistance, especially for the lower body. My equipment was all automated to facilitate a negative only workout without any additional help.

It is all about maximizing resistance. If you have a baseline static capacity, your positive work will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% less for your 10 reps to failure. Your negative capacity will be 20% more accounting for a gap of up to 40% between lifting and lowering capacity.

Internal muscle friction works against you as you are lifting and for you as you are lowering a weight. That's why if you lower the positive resistance too much and then slow it way down the negative will become even less effective because of the inherent gap in capabilities.

A nice compromise, if you have access to equipment that allows for it (much of the Nautilus equipment, for example) you can do negative accentuated exercises and not need anyone's additional assistance.

You select a slightly lower positive weight, lift with both limbs and then lower with one only, alternating on the lowering portion of the exercise. You might find that if your rep count is getting to high on a standard set that Negative accentuated is a nice way to finish things off.

Chuck
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Ellington Darden

Toward the end of the first week in March, I have some material I've been working on for the last six months . . . which will be posted on DrDarden.com.

It's called The Evolution of Eccentrics and it covers making negative training simple and productive.

Ellington
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BobGeorge

Ellington Darden wrote:
Toward the end of the first week in March, I have some material I've been working on for the last six months . . . which will be posted on DrDarden.com.

It's called The Evolution of Eccentrics and it covers making negative training simple and productive.

Ellington



Can't wait to read it! Thanks!
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Ciccio

Ellington Darden wrote:
Toward the end of the first week in March, I have some material I've been working on for the last six months . . . which will be posted on DrDarden.com.

It's called The Evolution of Eccentrics and it covers making negative training simple and productive.

Ellington


That's good news! Funny how I just thought today how long we didn't have an article from you.
Definately looking forward to this.

Regards,

Franco

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marcrph

Portugal

Ellington Darden wrote:
Toward the end of the first week in March, I have some material I've been working on for the last six months . . . which will be posted on DrDarden.com.

It's called The Evolution of Eccentrics and it covers making negative training simple and productive.

Ellington


Thanks Dr. Darden!

Marc
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southbeach

almost always learn Dr Darden's insight
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Waynes

Switzerland

To get the most tension to the muscles from negatives, use 85% and try for 15 reps, rest. Use 100% and try for 10 reps. use 110% and try for 6 reps.

However all must be at a speed of around 2 or 3 seconds to create the highest force.

Pressdowns are great for this, as you can throw; jerk the weight down, thus also using your positive strength.

Wayne
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marcrph

Portugal

If you have never used a Nautilus 1st Generation Double Chest, you have missed out on one of the best opportunities to use negative only exercise.

This machine with it's foot pedal press takes negative only training to another level. This machine makes negative only chest training much safer, and thus more effective. Everyone should try negative only on the Nautilus decline press. My favorite negative only movement!

This is my "Happiness Machine!"
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Hitit

I have stayed away from neg. only training for most of my years in training as the gym I go to makes it difficult to do dips/chins without running to the other side of the gym to do the chins and running again to the opposite side to do the dips.

I didn't like taking away from my rythym. Recently another gym near by had the dips and chins next to one another so I decided to try it again. I have no troubles with the chins, but the dips seem to irratate my shoulder joints (as they used to).

I feel more clicking and grinding going on after the movement for at least a fews days later along with a slight ache. No real pain, just irratation. I have been trying to be careful to not strentch too much in the bottom half of the movement knowing I have joint issues hopeing this would help.

Now comes the question:

Do you think I should scrap the neg. Dips due to the extra load it places on my joints or should I work through this believing my joints will get stronger and should not fear injury?

Thanks!
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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

About ten years ago I had a trainee doing NA reps on a Nautilus bicep machine , and in walks a trainer with a brand new client who asked what is that guy doing ( referring to my trainee doing NA ). The expert then proclaimed that he didn't know but " you see all kinds of weird stuff in the gym ".
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BobGeorge

Bill Sekerak wrote:
About ten years ago I had a trainee doing NA reps on a Nautilus bicep machine , and in walks a trainer with a brand new client who asked what is that guy doing ( referring to my trainee doing NA ).

The expert then proclaimed that he didn't know but " you see all kinds of weird stuff in the gym ".


Ha ha. Great story. That is hilarious.



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Paul Marsland

Bill Sekerak wrote:
About ten years ago I had a trainee doing NA reps on a Nautilus bicep machine , and in walks a trainer with a brand new client who asked what is that guy doing ( referring to my trainee doing NA ).

The expert then proclaimed that he didn't know but " you see all kinds of weird stuff in the gym ".


The blind leading the blind...
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rtestes

Mississippi, USA

Waynes wrote:
To get the most tension to the muscles from negatives, use 85% and try for 15 reps, rest. Use 100% and try for 10 reps. use 110% and try for 6 reps.

Wayne


110% of what? Your 1repmax? And you still do positive?

RTESTES
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chasbari

Ohio, USA

rtestes wrote:
Waynes wrote:
To get the most tension to the muscles from negatives, use 85% and try for 15 reps, rest. Use 100% and try for 10 reps. use 110% and try for 6 reps.

Wayne


110% of what? Your 1repmax? And you still do positive?

RTESTES


He is definitely NOT describing any sort of negative workout with those numbers... even the 110% is suspect if it can actually be lifted. You will know a negative when you actually do one.
CS
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Waynes

Switzerland

rtestes wrote:
Waynes wrote:
To get the most tension to the muscles from negatives, use 85% and try for 15 reps, rest. Use 100% and try for 10 reps. use 110% and try for 6 reps.

Wayne


110% of what? Your 1repmax? And you still do positive?

RTESTES


Yes 110% of your 1RM, if its too heavy after the 85 and 100, reduce say the 100 to 90 and do the 110 at 100. But you still do NOT do the positive as in a normal, positive to negative, as you can throw; jerk the weight down, using all your bodyweight on the pressdowns, thus also using some of your positive strength.

You must have 5 minutes rest between each set, then you will be fully warmed up for the second and third sets, and boy until you do the sets like this, will not believe how strong you be on these exersices.

Or you can try the whole thing one handed on the press downs, pressing down with both hands and lowering with one.

Wayne
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BobGeorge

I tried a set of slow (7-10 seconds) Negative-only Curls on Sunday. My arms were pretty damn pumped up afterward, and they were sore the next day. It's Tuesday and they are still a little sore.

I'm not sure how long to wait until I work them again. I'm thinking one week.

I can't wait to read Dr. Darden's article on the subject.

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thilmersen

I am currently doing Phase II of the TNHIT program, which includes NO chins and NO dips. My problem is that my forearms and grip get exhausted on both exercises, which causes me to fail before my back/chest/bicep/tricep strength is wiped out.
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Drew Baye

Florida, USA

I've always had good results from negative-only training, but have rarely done it regularly since I usually work out alone or with my wife, who isn't strong enough to lift the kind of weights I would need for negative-only.

I'm working with a prototype of one of Randy Rindfleisch's machines now that makes it possible to train in a negative-only fashion with no need for partner assistance, and provides maximum resistance on the negative, so the results should be interesting. Will post back here after a few weeks on it.

A few comments regarding earlier posts in the thread:

Muscular friction is not the reason for differences in positive and negative strength. These differences are due to differences in cross-bridging mechanics. Friction in the body is far, far too low to have any noticeable effect on this.

Negative reps should NEVER be performed fast. There is an easy and simple way to increase the force the muscles encounter in an exercise without increasing acceleration - add more weight.
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douglis

There're many studies available for negative only training either for isokinetic or isotonic mode.All show significant hypertrophy but,truth to tell,not much greater than positive only or isometric only.

In my opinion it's the effort that matters more and not the type of the contraction.To get maximum effort with negative only you need loads above 100% of 1RM while you can get nearly the same results with loads around 70% of 1RM with conventional training.
I tried negative only in the past and although i saw some results the recovery was really hard since i had to wait 10 days before i could train the same body part again.
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Olddog99

I can't wait till Dr, D post a new thread on this subject, as I think it is the best way to produce muscle and fast.
When ever I say to my self I want to be as big as I was when I was younger, I alway revert back to NO. The limitations that AJ talks about always come out. grip. I NO chin BW + 70lbs, now thats well over my 1RM which is BW + 40LBS and dips is BW+ 100lbs.

But the results meaning measurements are quick and apearant, arms ups 2/8 in just over a week, chest/back up 3/8 , calves up 1/8. thighs 1/8 all in 4 work outs.
This all sends me to a thought of:
do you get growth before strenth, given a starting point that has been plateaued.
Or; strenth followed by growth.

As I nerotically meausure my self before every work out, I have found one thing using negatives and negative assisted trainnig. Every time my measurements are up, I am stronger. At that point of increased measurement, I increase my weight for my exercise and not before. So did my work out make me stronger or single a measage to get bigger due to the 110% gross weight from the negative style.

I love the two accounts that are represented in AJs Colorado experiment and Dr D super slow book, both really emphasised the negative. Same as the 30/30 chin to bicept curl and 30/30 dip to tricept extention supersets these sets with out a guestion put mass on your frame. I wish I had the omni machines just to see the results, as I am sure NO is the way to go, but the limitations are so very great.

if you were to think of the requirements for growth, some would be:
max weight placed on target muscle;
the least amount of force placed on joints;
max contraction in the full contraction position;
the least amount that taxes your system;
and above 90% of a 1 RM max;
and sufficient time underload to enter into the muscle reserves.
This all leeds to negative training.
So Dr D, I await your Post with great anticapation.
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Ellington Darden

The negative training material should be posted later today. It will be at the top of the opening page, so look for it.

Ellington
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Olddog99

Great!!

If intensity of effort is the defining element for max growth and strenth increases, then NO or NA trainning fits the bill like no there.
Put a 100lbs on your waist with a weight belt with chain and do a dip. you will be concentracting very hard, working very hard and rep after rep your muscles are being punished till you are simply out of strenth and your common sense kicks in that you cant complete another rep in a safe manner.

the account of tom plats working his shoulders are more than inspiring and it was done in a NO fashion.
and yes at my gym i get the funniest looks when I am doing a NO set of chins with 70lbs strapped to my waist. then i hear the personnel trainers in the gym, tell there clients, that working out that hard is not required as they continue to put their clints through the work out at the same time as carry out a conversation about the shoping they were doing.
they laugh at me, but I quitlt laugh at them, flex my pummped muscles and carry on.
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jack32

Marc-
I have to try the Negative only decline press.
I've always used the Omni Negative chest press, which has never failed to invoke extreme soreness in my chest and tris.
jack
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mr_andreassen

Static force F=ma = weight x gravity
Gravity is 9.81
F= m x 9.81 = N (static gravity force )
Concentric force (Fc) = F + (m x a or v in concentric direction )
Eccentric force (Fe) = F ? (m x a or v in eccentric direction)
a = v-v0
t

the faster the concentric repetition the more power must be executed although this does not always necessarily mean more tension on the muscle over full range of motion simply because of momentum and also in some degree leverage as in bench press where the moment arm decreases towards full contraction.
The faster the eccentric repetition less power must be executed as gravity will be ?assisting? until gravity does all the work. If one wants to do faster eccentric this must be compensated by increasing the mass to equal the force balance.

Difference in the force between Fc-Fe is simply the force needed to compensate to either overcoming gravity (opposite direction) or having assistance from gravity (with gravity) and speed /acceleration dependant.
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