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chasbari

Ohio, USA

entsminger wrote:
chasbari wrote:
entsminger wrote:
My memory is bad so please excuse me but I think Bio or someone said the best position for chinning and possibly working the lats is with palms facing each other? Over the weekend I welded two handles to my chin bar so that my hands will face each other. Today I'll try using that and see what the results are.

Scott

Aren't there already parallel bars on the Nautilus ME machine you already have? You just don't need to flip the upper carraige forward if I remember correctly. I'm turning into an old fart so I may very well be mistaken about this.
Chuck

==Scott==
You're right Chas, the Nautilus multi machine has that bar at the top but I find it too wide and thick for my shrimpy shoulder width.I think the dip part is too wide for me as well but I do use it on ocassion but I can't do near as many dips as I can on my closer grip dip bar. Maybe as I get stronger I'll switch to the Nautilus chin part more often?

The worst part about this right now is the long wait between workouts to try something new. I hear some on here talking about how to minimize the workouts they need to do every week and I like it so much I could do it everyday if my body would let me. It's like telling Hugh Hefner, only once a week now son or you'll never recover...ha ,ha..


Scott,
I am going to open a can of worms here as the following is something I would have never considered a while back:

Is the artificial construct of a workout actually counterproductive to its intended result?

I have observed, over the years, that the artificial construct of the structured whole body workout has the potential to have a great and positive impact on increasing overall health when done on a somewhat regular schedule. A whole body strength training regimen can evoke improvements in overall musculoskeletal strength, improved joint integrity, better cardiac function, weight control when coupled with good nutritional practices and an overall feeling of mental and physical wellbeing.

So, what's to argue? For the average trainee with the desire to reap the above mentioned rewards, very little if anything at all.
For the trainee who, once experiencing the strength increases, then desires to focus more on larger increases in muscle strength, perhaps there is more to contend with when closely examining the whole notion of regulated, measured and punctuated workout routines.

I want to first point out that many scientific studies, observations and theories properly done are based on observations made after the fact. The event, even when part of a newly constructed hypothesis, is only observed in retrospect. As a result it (the study) is not (or should not be) driving the event and thus not creating the result. The event, in all its complexity is only being observed in the observable, measurable and known realm at that particular moment and, since we are learning new things in the way of cause and effect all the time, there is little doubt that there cannot be a total understanding of what is truly going on in any research.

Rather, only partial observations of narrowly defined criteria after the fact. If, on the other hand, the experiment is set up to isolate one particular aspect thus driving the potential result it is no longer purely observational and is now possibly driving the event thus becoming an artificial construct and, as such, can only be useful in evaluating an isolated artificial construct that may or may not be applicable to the overall natural state of stimulus response. I note that scientific method has done a tremendous amount of good in moving forward our understanding of events but it still does not necessarily change the reality of our misunderstandings when we fail to account for the fact that we still really know relatively little of the overall picture thus leading us to draw many ill bred conclusions of cause and effect.

Expected, planned and anticipated constructed events may lead to increased efficiencies through acquired skill levels over time thus making the event less valuable as a stimulus. Structuring a workout and then planning the days and charting the results may lead to self fulfilling limitations in the form of a set number of reps at a given weight or missing out on the truly optimal time for stimulus work.

Unexpected brief encounters with work like challenges on a sporadic and highly unpredictable schedule may have some merit in possibly being a greater stimulus response trigger for building strength. Especially if linked with a nutrient dense follow up (Important note: Nutrient dense and not necessarily calorie dense.)

Anecdotally my thoughts have been moving in this direction because of the fact that when I go through a whole body structured workout or even a split routine I do not recover nearly as well and I also notice peak strength loss intervals and cyclical recovery seems to be more severe, often extending for days. I can think of no naturally occurring events where a person would normally try to tax the whole body in the same way a whole body work out can in such a potentially brief amount of time.

When I think back on my times of greatest measurable gains I recall working at a facility where, during down time between clients or slow times or when working with some of the trainees, I would have cause to do things like multiple single leg reps with the whole weight stack on leg extension just for the heck of it throughout the day. It went counter to all I was taught as a Nautilus instructor as I would do this on ?off? days as well as work out days. These challenges would occur throughout the day much as I am now experiencing when I am working on a new piece of equipment in the shop. I will take a break and head over to whatever piece of equipment I feel like taking on at the moment and will lay into it. Often times I will increase the normal amount of resistance because I am feeling particularly strong at that moment.

There is no rhyme or reason, charting or tracking done and rest for recovery is dictated by how tired working in the shop has left me at the end of the day. I feel much stronger through what would normally be recovery cycling than if I were to have done a whole body workout at some point during the day. I have also found that, upon returning to the same exercise later in the day, I am able to handle more weight, more repetitions or both. Sporadic high intensity work through the day evokes a much different state of strength and readiness.

Also, when I hit a whole body workout I lose weight rapidly, often up to five pounds in twenty four hours. It takes days to recover back to baseline strength. When I do the sporadic unpredictable workout I do not drop bodyweight. Further, whole body routines seem to trigger rheumatoid arthritis flares concomitant with the need for longer recovery periods. If I am purposefully inactive during RA flare recovery it seems to make the flare get worse. Heavy work on various exercises appears to negate the flare more than resting until it passes if that work is done sporadically as noted above.

I would also add that this might only be necessary because of my present disease recovery state and that the volume of high intensity work still remains relatively low as I only do, at most, five or six total sets in a day. That's not five or six exercises for five or six sets, more like three or four exercises for an overall total of five sets throughout the day.

Just anecdotal observations after the fact with no real solid hypothesis at this time but some curious things. I know that the structured workout is ideal for someone who is a member of a gym needing to get in and out in a reasonable amount of time. The sporadic mode of working out only really works if you have 24/7 access to your own equipment which makes this approach less than likely for many.

Chuck
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overfiftylifter

Chuck, I wonder if some of the auto-immune properties associated with RA relates to your reaction to exercise? The great general stimulation of a full body workout may produce triggers that cause a catabolic response producing some of your comments. I wonder if workouts done with a highly divided split routine would be of benefit? Is it possible moderating the intensity(using lower 1RM-40 to 50%) or effort employed would reduce any negative reaction?

Overfiftylifter-reduction of RM has helped many reduce inflammatory joint response(though most of it is probably osteo) in training
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

chasbari wrote:
entsminger wrote:
chasbari wrote:
entsminger wrote:
My memory is bad so please excuse me but I think Bio or someone said the best position for chinning and possibly working the lats is with palms facing each other? Over the weekend I welded two handles to my chin bar so that my hands will face each other. Today I'll try using that and see what the results are.

Scott

Aren't there already parallel bars on the Nautilus ME machine you already have? You just don't need to flip the upper carraige forward if I remember correctly. I'm turning into an old fart so I may very well be mistaken about this.
Chuck

==Scott==
You're right Chas, the Nautilus multi machine has that bar at the top but I find it too wide and thick for my shrimpy shoulder width.I think the dip part is too wide for me as well but I do use it on ocassion but I can't do near as many dips as I can on my closer grip dip bar. Maybe as I get stronger I'll switch to the Nautilus chin part more often?

The worst part about this right now is the long wait between workouts to try something new. I hear some on here talking about how to minimize the workouts they need to do every week and I like it so much I could do it everyday if my body would let me. It's like telling Hugh Hefner, only once a week now son or you'll never recover...ha ,ha..

Scott,
I am going to open a can of worms here as the following is something I would have never considered a while back:

Is the artificial construct of a workout actually counterproductive to its intended result?

I have observed, over the years, that the artificial construct of the structured whole body workout has the potential to have a great and positive impact on increasing overall health when done on a somewhat regular schedule. A whole body strength training regimen can evoke improvements in overall musculoskeletal strength, improved joint integrity, better cardiac function, weight control when coupled with good nutritional practices and an overall feeling of mental and physical wellbeing.

So, what's to argue? For the average trainee with the desire to reap the above mentioned rewards, very little if anything at all.
For the trainee who, once experiencing the strength increases, then desires to focus more on larger increases in muscle strength, perhaps there is more to contend with when closely examining the whole notion of regulated, measured and punctuated workout routines.

I want to first point out that many scientific studies, observations and theories properly done are based on observations made after the fact. The event, even when part of a newly constructed hypothesis, is only observed in retrospect. As a result it (the study) is not (or should not be) driving the event and thus not creating the result. The event, in all its complexity is only being observed in the observable, measurable and known realm at that particular moment and, since we are learning new things in the way of cause and effect all the time, there is little doubt that there cannot be a total understanding of what is truly going on in any research.

Rather, only partial observations of narrowly defined criteria after the fact. If, on the other hand, the experiment is set up to isolate one particular aspect thus driving the potential result it is no longer purely observational and is now possibly driving the event thus becoming an artificial construct and, as such, can only be useful in evaluating an isolated artificial construct that may or may not be applicable to the overall natural state of stimulus response. I note that scientific method has done a tremendous amount of good in moving forward our understanding of events but it still does not necessarily change the reality of our misunderstandings when we fail to account for the fact that we still really know relatively little of the overall picture thus leading us to draw many ill bred conclusions of cause and effect.

Expected, planned and anticipated constructed events may lead to increased efficiencies through acquired skill levels over time thus making the event less valuable as a stimulus. Structuring a workout and then planning the days and charting the results may lead to self fulfilling limitations in the form of a set number of reps at a given weight or missing out on the truly optimal time for stimulus work.

Unexpected brief encounters with work like challenges on a sporadic and highly unpredictable schedule may have some merit in possibly being a greater stimulus response trigger for building strength. Especially if linked with a nutrient dense follow up (Important note: Nutrient dense and not necessarily calorie dense.)

Anecdotally my thoughts have been moving in this direction because of the fact that when I go through a whole body structured workout or even a split routine I do not recover nearly as well and I also notice peak strength loss intervals and cyclical recovery seems to be more severe, often extending for days. I can think of no naturally occurring events where a person would normally try to tax the whole body in the same way a whole body work out can in such a potentially brief amount of time.

When I think back on my times of greatest measurable gains I recall working at a facility where, during down time between clients or slow times or when working with some of the trainees, I would have cause to do things like multiple single leg reps with the whole weight stack on leg extension just for the heck of it throughout the day. It went counter to all I was taught as a Nautilus instructor as I would do this on ?off? days as well as work out days. These challenges would occur throughout the day much as I am now experiencing when I am working on a new piece of equipment in the shop. I will take a break and head over to whatever piece of equipment I feel like taking on at the moment and will lay into it. Often times I will increase the normal amount of resistance because I am feeling particularly strong at that moment.

There is no rhyme or reason, charting or tracking done and rest for recovery is dictated by how tired working in the shop has left me at the end of the day. I feel much stronger through what would normally be recovery cycling than if I were to have done a whole body workout at some point during the day. I have also found that, upon returning to the same exercise later in the day, I am able to handle more weight, more repetitions or both. Sporadic high intensity work through the day evokes a much different state of strength and readiness.

Also, when I hit a whole body workout I lose weight rapidly, often up to five pounds in twenty four hours. It takes days to recover back to baseline strength. When I do the sporadic unpredictable workout I do not drop bodyweight. Further, whole body routines seem to trigger rheumatoid arthritis flares concomitant with the need for longer recovery periods. If I am purposefully inactive during RA flare recovery it seems to make the flare get worse. Heavy work on various exercises appears to negate the flare more than resting until it passes if that work is done sporadically as noted above.

I would also add that this might only be necessary because of my present disease recovery state and that the volume of high intensity work still remains relatively low as I only do, at most, five or six total sets in a day. That's not five or six exercises for five or six sets, more like three or four exercises for an overall total of five sets throughout the day.

Just anecdotal observations after the fact with no real solid hypothesis at this time but some curious things. I know that the structured workout is ideal for someone who is a member of a gym needing to get in and out in a reasonable amount of time. The sporadic mode of working out only really works if you have 24/7 access to your own equipment which makes this approach less than likely for many.

Chuck


==Scott==
So let me see if I understand where your going with this Chas. You're saying that a full body workout might not work as well for you as a sporadic not so planned workout possibly because the whole body workout is just too much for your system to recover from? If that's the jist of it I can see how a full body workout can and often is too much to recover from especially if you push it hard even fpor the healthest of people.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Further update:
I think what I'm about to talk about is a problem I and many of us seem to have over and over again. We start to make some mild gains and then drop back to square one. What I'm experiancing now is a good example of over doing it. Ok, roughly about 4 weeks ago or more my arms were measuring around 15 1/2 pumped.

I was and am working out on a pull, push routine. Pull Monday, push Thursday with some hand stands ( on push day) and some light leg cardio work on off days. I hadn't made any real substantial gains for some time prior to 5 weeks ago,maybe going up a rep or two or three a week at best and my arm size pretty much stayed consistant at around 15 1/2.

Then I started doing my sets a little different. I started relaxing on my form a little and increased the acceleration of my reps from the first rep to try and use heavier weights. I was able to use much heavier weights, at least for me. For instance when doing my dumbell curls strictly I could probably use 25 pound dumbells.

Yesterday I was doing dumbell curls ( Levrone style) with 40 pounders for the same reps.Within a few workouts I started seeing an increase in size. Soon my arms were measuring 15 5/8 and then a few workouts later they measured 15 3/4 and then a workout or two later they were just a hair under 16.

Bigger than they ever have been!Now maybe this supposed gain was just the result of a change or whatever, it's hard to tell but my arms did actually measure bigger.

Here's where the usual return to OZ happens. As you probaly know I am enthusastic about working out and push it very hard, most likely too hard to often. Coupled with my push days I did hand stands/walking on my hands. After my regular workout I would go to the football field and try and walk as far as I could on my hands.

Well about the time my arms were just getting bigger than 15 1/2 I pushed the hand stands till I felt really tired. I just wanted in the worst way to get back to the days of yesteryear when I could walk on my hands for 100 feet or so. I could barely get 10 feet now and was huffing and puffing by the end.

Well each push day I would keep trying these hand stands and each workout I was getting more beat trying them. By the last push day workout I felt really drained after doing them and that carried on most of the week. When I went to do my pull day workout, I was still sore from the push day but I plodded on working out hard anyway.

About two weeks ago instead of my arm mesauring the larger just under 16 it was now measuring 15 5/8 again and after yesterdays hard workout it was back down to 15 1/2 pumped.Obviously I had been over doing it again and was regressing.

As Ellington Darden says in his New High intensity training book in the molecules of muscle growth section,, too little tearing of the muscle ( working it mildly hard) won't get the muscle you want and too much tearing (working it too hard) may injure the muscle too much which could actually leave your muscles smaller. As always I had done to much.

Even though I feel now that with my split of only two workouts a week routine that isn't enough I was overtrainng. I was pushing to hard to often. The hand stands really may have put me over the edge?

As usual in my eagerness to lift like crazy which I enjoy doing, I end up over doing it and end up going back to the square one level of no gains.So here's where you guys can help. I'm going to cut way back on the hand stands or even elliminate them completely for now? As Simon is always telling me I need to cycle my workouts. Some not to failure ,some to failure etc.

Knowing that even now I feel like I don't get enough workouts and sets and reps how would you reccomend I vary my workouts to allow my body to recover better?

Thanks
Scott
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Oh yea I forgot, remember I welded to hand grips on my chin bar so that the grips faced each other. I tried it last night and while it may allow my shoulders to reverse shrug a little better I could not do any more reps on it, still 4 , ha ha.

Scott
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Ciccio

Scott,

I had a similar experience with my chest. A few weeks after I went on a fatloss diet my progress on leverage decline press stalled and then I went backwards. Now as my sets are as much standardized as possible and thus comparable I imediately noticed this drop in performance which is not the case if you use loose form.
Still, I first thought it was just a bad day (that soon became bad dayS!). Not until I cut back volume to 2 sets per workout only (remember, I work out only once per week with 5 sets) I could stop the downward spirale and improving (regaining the strength/muscle I lost) again.
So, my experience tells me that you should 1. take a complete week off (at least) and 2. reduce volume drastically for the time beeing (until progress resumes).

Best,

Franco
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Ciccio wrote:
Scott,

I had a similar experience with my chest. A few weeks after I went on a fatloss diet my progress on leverage decline press stalled and then I went backwards. Now as my sets are as much standardized as possible and thus comparable I imediately noticed this drop in performance which is not the case if you use loose form.
Still, I first thought it was just a bad day (that soon became bad dayS!). Not until I cut back volume to 2 sets per workout only (remember, I work out only once per week with 5 sets) I could stop the downward spirale and improving (regaining the strength/muscle I lost) again.
So, my experience tells me that you should 1. take a complete week off (at least) and 2. reduce volume drastically for the time beeing (until progress resumes).

Best,

Franco



==Scott==
Yea as much as I hate taking off any time from working out I am going to take off at least a week and cut out the hand stands and a little volume. I really don't know how some guys can take it who only work out every 7 to 10 days? Some say they only workout every 14 to 20 days. That would drive me absolutely crazy. I'd workout everyday if I could.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Oh, by the way Bio, instead of my usual Nautilus behind the necks, and pullovers on my pull day I instead substituted heavy pulldowns similar to those in your Youtube geezer video. Mine were slightly more strict but not much more.

Instead of my Nautilus curls I substituted 40 pounders instead of 25 pound dumbells for the first set and then used 35's for the second set and did less strict curls with thumbs facing forward and then palms twisting up on the way up. I did two sets each of these. Today my biceps are definately sore and my lats are starting to feel it a little. I think I overtrained by doing to much other stuff like the hand stands and erging to much on legs days possibly?

Even if my biceps went back down to micro size I seem to see a slightly higher peaked bicep possibly? Maybe that's just wishfull thinking, ha ha.
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southbeach

Scott,
I have my doubts you will ever be able to perform ten strict chins with B/W. Ask yourself why?
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

southbeach wrote:
Scott,
I have my doubts you will ever be able to perform ten strict chins with B/W. Ask yourself why?


==Scott==
Baring injury in the near future I think I will do 10 strict chins! I've got the determination! I know you're refering to the bodyweight/fat issue which you keep harping on. Being able to do 10 chins wouldn't mean much to me if I had to slim down to a pencil to do them. I'll get 10 at my bodyweight eventually. Thin guys can always do more chins as they don't have as much to haul up but the guy who can do chins with the heavier body is a heck of alot stronger than the one who can do them with a thin flyweight body. Remember, I really just started doing chins. I hadn't really ever done them untill recently.Southbeach,you never have said how many you can do with your ultra trim physique??
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southbeach

entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Scott,
I have my doubts you will ever be able to perform ten strict chins with B/W. Ask yourself why?

==Scott==
Baring injury in the near future I think I will do 10 strict chins! I've got the determination! I know you're refering to the bodyweight/fat issue which you keep harping on. Being able to do 10 chins wouldn't mean much to me if I had to slim down to a pencil to do them. I'll get 10 at my bodyweight eventually. Thin guys can always do more chins as they don't have as much to haul up but the guy who can do chins with the heavier body is a heck of alot stronger than the one who can do them with a thin flyweight body. Remember, I really just started doing chins. I hadn't really ever done them untill recently.Southbeach,you never have said how many you can do with your ultra trim physique??


Maybe you never did chins but you've been doing pulldowns and every other damn thing. Thin guys have less B/w but they also have a lot less muscle to go with those thin bodies.

Chins aren't a circus trick you need to practice (al least not the strict version). All it takes is strength.
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Hitit

I'm watching you Scott! LOL No working out for 1 week!! haha

I've been thinking of doing the same, but I thought I would try to cut out the elliptical work (since it's more muscle specific) and maybe the swim for a short while and see how the recovery does and see if I can find a place to incorporate it again. I may try the elliptical after my HIT workout for a short 10-15 mins instead of doing it during rest days (I value the fuctional part of the movement for my back and hips). The swim may still be in between my rest days, but never on the day after HIT and maybe not the day before eaither. I also cut my times down from 30 min. to 20 min.

I do a 4/4 style routine full body right now. I've found that I've needed about 3-4 days recovery in between HIT workouts while incorporating the swim/elliptical, so I'm hoping I will recover even sooner with the cutbacks, but it may be I will do better with the same recovery time, but with less exercise in between. I've not tried split routines.

I've also decided to cut down on the compound movements I do in any one given routine in hopes to not inroad so far into recovery. Maybe this could help you as well?

Another thing I've tried is no exercise the day after or before my weight routine except maybe a light walk. Try this?

I am the same as you with regards to NTF routines - I just hate not challenging myself and pushing it - type A I guess! And I can't stand to only exercise 1-2 times a week also!

I wish us luck!! I'll be checking your progress...

Brian
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Waynes

Switzerland

entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Scott,
I have my doubts you will ever be able to perform ten strict chins with B/W. Ask yourself why?

==Scott==
Baring injury in the near future I think I will do 10 strict chins! I've got the determination! I know you're refering to the bodyweight/fat issue which you keep harping on. Being able to do 10 chins wouldn't mean much to me if I had to slim down to a pencil to do them. I'll get 10 at my bodyweight eventually. Thin guys can always do more chins as they don't have as much to haul up but the guy who can do chins with the heavier body is a heck of alot stronger than the one who can do them with a thin flyweight body. Remember, I really just started doing chins. I hadn't really ever done them untill recently.Southbeach,you never have said how many you can do with your ultra trim physique??


I would not bother with the chins. As when you do 10 chins what is it in size going to give you ??? A little maybe. Or maybe you body is not biomechanically suited to chins.

I would just do pull downs, behind neck or pullovers, 20/15/5/20, and work up in weight from there. Your back should blow up after doing those for a month. Actually I would do pullovers 20/15/5, behind neck 20 and pull downs 15. With 5 minutes rest between the first 2 exercises, then 3 minutes, all normal style reps, fastish.

Wayne
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Mr. Strong

Waynes wrote:
entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Scott,
I have my doubts you will ever be able to perform ten strict chins with B/W. Ask yourself why?

==Scott==
Baring injury in the near future I think I will do 10 strict chins! I've got the determination! I know you're refering to the bodyweight/fat issue which you keep harping on. Being able to do 10 chins wouldn't mean much to me if I had to slim down to a pencil to do them. I'll get 10 at my bodyweight eventually.

Thin guys can always do more chins as they don't have as much to haul up but the guy who can do chins with the heavier body is a heck of alot stronger than the one who can do them with a thin flyweight body. Remember, I really just started doing chins. I hadn't really ever done them untill recently.Southbeach,you never have said how many you can do with your ultra trim physique??

I would not bother with the chins. As when you do 10 chins what is it in size going to give you ??? A little maybe. Or maybe you body is not biomechanically suited to chins.

I would just do pull downs, behind neck or pullovers, 20/15/5/20, and work up in weight from there. Your back should blow up after doing those for a month. Actually I would do pullovers 20/15/5, behind neck 20 and pull downs 15. With 5 minutes rest between the first 2 exercises, then 3 minutes, all normal style reps, fastish.

Wayne



^ Ignore this unless Wayne shows us his huge lats. And the 2 consecutive 60 second Chins he said he would post ages ago.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Waynes wrote:
entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Scott,
I have my doubts you will ever be able to perform ten strict chins with B/W. Ask yourself why?

==Scott==
Baring injury in the near future I think I will do 10 strict chins! I've got the determination! I know you're refering to the bodyweight/fat issue which you keep harping on. Being able to do 10 chins wouldn't mean much to me if I had to slim down to a pencil to do them. I'll get 10 at my bodyweight eventually. Thin guys can always do more chins as they don't have as much to haul up but the guy who can do chins with the heavier body is a heck of alot stronger than the one who can do them with a thin flyweight body. Remember, I really just started doing chins. I hadn't really ever done them untill recently.Southbeach,you never have said how many you can do with your ultra trim physique??

I would not bother with the chins. As when you do 10 chins what is it in size going to give you ??? A little maybe. Or maybe you body is not biomechanically suited to chins.

I would just do pull downs, behind neck or pullovers, 20/15/5/20, and work up in weight from there. Your back should blow up after doing those for a month. Actually I would do pullovers 20/15/5, behind neck 20 and pull downs 15. With 5 minutes rest between the first 2 exercises, then 3 minutes, all normal style reps, fastish.

Wayne


==Scott==
I really can't explain why I have this desire to to ten chins, I guess I just need a challange to accomplish.Years ago a friend said I pretty much had no lats and he was right, so I'm finally going to see if I can build some. I find my lats do get sore when I do chins so the chins must be working them? I used to do pulldowns but never with even near body weight so I don't think they really helped with actuall chinning.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Hitit wrote:
I'm watching you Scott! LOL No working out for 1 week!! haha

I've been thinking of doing the same, but I thought I would try to cut out the elliptical work (since it's more muscle specific) and maybe the swim for a short while and see how the recovery does and see if I can find a place to incorporate it again. I may try the elliptical after my HIT workout for a short 10-15 mins instead of doing it during rest days (I value the fuctional part of the movement for my back and hips). The swim may still be in between my rest days, but never on the day after HIT and maybe not the day before eaither. I also cut my times down from 30 min. to 20 min.

I do a 4/4 style routine full body right now. I've found that I've needed about 3-4 days recovery in between HIT workouts while incorporating the swim/elliptical, so I'm hoping I will recover even sooner with the cutbacks, but it may be I will do better with the same recovery time, but with less exercise in between. I've not tried split routines.

I've also decided to cut down on the compound movements I do in any one given routine in hopes to not inroad so far into recovery. Maybe this could help you as well?

Another thing I've tried is no exercise the day after or before my weight routine except maybe a light walk. Try this?

I am the same as you with regards to NTF routines - I just hate not challenging myself and pushing it - type A I guess! And I can't stand to only exercise 1-2 times a week also!

I wish us luck!! I'll be checking your progress...

Brian


==Scott==
Yea one of my faults if you can call it a fault is that I get too gung ho at times when I start doing well in my lifting program and I start trying to do to much untill I usually over do it. I've always found it tough to hold back and not push it hard even when I'm sick. Now I'm essentially just working out twice a week, pull on Monday and push on Thursday with some cardio in between and it seems like forever between workouts. When I do get to workout I just want to go nuts and do as much as I can which usually leads to overtraining.
I think more than the workouts themselves sometimes it's the outside activities that take a toll on recovery. Last week I had to change the whole muffler system on my car at home and by the end of the day I was beat. I worked out anyway afterwards and probably shouldn't have, as I was dying. I also got over enthusastic with my hand stands and kept doing them on push day till I felt exausted. It's always great fun at the time, but later on you realize you did to much again.That fine line of too much and just enough is a tough line to straddle.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Hitit wrote:
I'm watching you Scott! LOL No working out for 1 week!! haha

I've been thinking of doing the same, but I thought I would try to cut out the elliptical work (since it's more muscle specific) and maybe the swim for a short while and see how the recovery does and see if I can find a place to incorporate it again. I may try the elliptical after my HIT workout for a short 10-15 mins instead of doing it during rest days (I value the fuctional part of the movement for my back and hips). The swim may still be in between my rest days, but never on the day after HIT and maybe not the day before eaither. I also cut my times down from 30 min. to 20 min.

I do a 4/4 style routine full body right now. I've found that I've needed about 3-4 days recovery in between HIT workouts while incorporating the swim/elliptical, so I'm hoping I will recover even sooner with the cutbacks, but it may be I will do better with the same recovery time, but with less exercise in between. I've not tried split routines.

I've also decided to cut down on the compound movements I do in any one given routine in hopes to not inroad so far into recovery. Maybe this could help you as well?

Another thing I've tried is no exercise the day after or before my weight routine except maybe a light walk. Try this?

I am the same as you with regards to NTF routines - I just hate not challenging myself and pushing it - type A I guess! And I can't stand to only exercise 1-2 times a week also!

I wish us luck!! I'll be checking your progress...

Brian


==Scott==
Oh I forgot the split routine part. I'm still have mixed feelings on the split routine. I try and only work each body part once a week. The good part of a split is that it allows me to work out more often. The problem is that I don't know if the muscles really get a full week to recover as there seems to be some over lap in muscle use from pull day to push day. For instance, a workout or two ago my triceps were still a tad sore when pull day came. I don't know that it helps the triceps to recover when I do chins, curls, pullovers etc or if it hinders their recovery but the idea of only working out once a week is not appealing to me. Sometimes when I do heavy a bench press type movement on push day my lats or something in the lat area feels worked. Might doing lats later in the week mess with the total recovery of both muscles or does it help?
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sgb2112

Waynes is correct..I mean look at the bar-barians, Hannibal for King, Bartendaz, Zuzana etc..they have backs flat as ironing boards.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

sgb2112 wrote:
Waynes is correct..I mean look at the bar-barians, Hannibal for King, Bartendaz, Zuzana etc..they have backs flat as ironing boards.


==Scott==
I'm not sure what you mean?Backs as flat as ironing boards?
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

southbeach wrote:
entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Scott,
I have my doubts you will ever be able to perform ten strict chins with B/W. Ask yourself why?

==Scott==
Baring injury in the near future I think I will do 10 strict chins! I've got the determination! I know you're refering to the bodyweight/fat issue which you keep harping on. Being able to do 10 chins wouldn't mean much to me if I had to slim down to a pencil to do them. I'll get 10 at my bodyweight eventually. Thin guys can always do more chins as they don't have as much to haul up but the guy who can do chins with the heavier body is a heck of alot stronger than the one who can do them with a thin flyweight body. Remember, I really just started doing chins. I hadn't really ever done them untill recently.Southbeach,you never have said how many you can do with your ultra trim physique??

Maybe you never did chins but you've been doing pulldowns and every other damn thing. Thin guys have less B/w but they also have a lot less muscle to go with those thin bodies.

Chins aren't a circus trick you need to practice (al least not the strict version). All it takes is strength.


===Scott==
Who said they were a circus trick? I know they take strength, what else is new? Other than losing weight, which I am trying to do, have you any suggestions that are usefull?
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southbeach

entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Scott,
I have my doubts you will ever be able to perform ten strict chins with B/W. Ask yourself why?

==Scott==
Baring injury in the near future I think I will do 10 strict chins! I've got the determination! I know you're refering to the bodyweight/fat issue which you keep harping on. Being able to do 10 chins wouldn't mean much to me if I had to slim down to a pencil to do them. I'll get 10 at my bodyweight eventually. Thin guys can always do more chins as they don't have as much to haul up but the guy who can do chins with the heavier body is a heck of alot stronger than the one who can do them with a thin flyweight body. Remember, I really just started doing chins. I hadn't really ever done them untill recently.Southbeach,you never have said how many you can do with your ultra trim physique??

Maybe you never did chins but you've been doing pulldowns and every other damn thing. Thin guys have less B/w but they also have a lot less muscle to go with those thin bodies.

Chins aren't a circus trick you need to practice (al least not the strict version). All it takes is strength.

===Scott==
Who said they were a circus trick? I know they take strength, what else is new? Other than losing weight, which I am trying to do, have you any suggestions that are usefull?


What's your height and weight currently?

It is interesting study that you don't have the strength to do a decent # of chins. Apparently either your lats and biceps are too weak..or both. My guess is your lats are lacking because the biceps are easy to train and strengthen but effectively isolating the lats is impossible w/o a pullover machine.

But you DO have a pullover machine, correct?

I take great care when I do the pullover machine. I actively keep my back FLAT against the back support, open my hands and push with the elbows only. This really isolates the lats for me. BUT this also INCREASES the stretch at the top, so I really slow down and I am very very careful not to over-stretch by moving too fast. (I hurt my shoulder once moving too fast that led to overstretching, i learned the hard way) I am real careful at the top.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Ok , if you;ve watched the Levrone report you've seen him at the dinner table stuffing his face and looking silly I can look silly too, so here's the Scott report version of that and before you say anything Southbeach, the ending is a joke, but I do have to admit that this is why I'll never look like Andy McCutcheon.

I enjoy eating to much to go hungry all the time so I'll look super trim.See.... Dinner time video...

Scott
http://s673.photobucket.com/...ionchinsqui.flv
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

southbeach wrote:
entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Scott,
I have my doubts you will ever be able to perform ten strict chins with B/W. Ask yourself why?

==Scott==
Baring injury in the near future I think I will do 10 strict chins! I've got the determination! I know you're refering to the bodyweight/fat issue which you keep harping on. Being able to do 10 chins wouldn't mean much to me if I had to slim down to a pencil to do them. I'll get 10 at my bodyweight eventually. Thin guys can always do more chins as they don't have as much to haul up but the guy who can do chins with the heavier body is a heck of alot stronger than the one who can do them with a thin flyweight body. Remember, I really just started doing chins. I hadn't really ever done them untill recently.Southbeach,you never have said how many you can do with your ultra trim physique??

Maybe you never did chins but you've been doing pulldowns and every other damn thing. Thin guys have less B/w but they also have a lot less muscle to go with those thin bodies.

Chins aren't a circus trick you need to practice (al least not the strict version). All it takes is strength.

===Scott==
Who said they were a circus trick? I know they take strength, what else is new? Other than losing weight, which I am trying to do, have you any suggestions that are usefull?

What's your height and weight currently?
==Scott==
Five foot 8 at 170 ish? I need to lose about 5 pounds.

It is interesting study that you don't have the strength to do a decent # of chins. Apparently either your lats and biceps are too weak..or both. My guess is your lats are lacking because the biceps are easy to train and strengthen but effectively isolating the lats is impossible w/o a pullover machine.
==Scott==
I don't know if it's an interesting study or not as hardly anyone , yourself included, has come forward with how many chins they can do strictly? Do you realy think it's impossible with out a pullover? Sure pullovers are great but certainly other exercises cn work the lats as well?
But you DO have a pullover machine, correct?
==Scott==
Actually I have 3 pullovers, 2 of which have to go sometime for space needs if I can find someone to trade me a compound row for one? Anyone got a compound row to trade for a blue super pullover?
I take great care when I do the pullover machine. I actively keep my back FLAT against the back support, open my hands and push with the elbows only. This really isolates the lats for me. BUT this also INCREASES the stretch at the top, so I really slow down and I am very very careful not to over-stretch by moving too fast. (I hurt my shoulder once moving too fast that led to overstretching, i learned the hard way) I am real careful at the top.


==Scott==
I try on ocassion using only the elbows to push with and it does seem to isolate the lats better. Currently I have been trying one set of heavier less strict pullovers and then a set of elbow only pullovers. My lats seem to get a pretty good workin that way. For me biceps are real easy to isolate and work. With lats I just never could get good feel in them untill recently.My arms were probaly doing most of the work?
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southbeach

entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Scott,
I have my doubts you will ever be able to perform ten strict chins with B/W. Ask yourself why?

==Scott==
Baring injury in the near future I think I will do 10 strict chins! I've got the determination! I know you're refering to the bodyweight/fat issue which you keep harping on. Being able to do 10 chins wouldn't mean much to me if I had to slim down to a pencil to do them. I'll get 10 at my bodyweight eventually. Thin guys can always do more chins as they don't have as much to haul up but the guy who can do chins with the heavier body is a heck of alot stronger than the one who can do them with a thin flyweight body. Remember, I really just started doing chins. I hadn't really ever done them untill recently.Southbeach,you never have said how many you can do with your ultra trim physique??

Maybe you never did chins but you've been doing pulldowns and every other damn thing. Thin guys have less B/w but they also have a lot less muscle to go with those thin bodies.

Chins aren't a circus trick you need to practice (al least not the strict version). All it takes is strength.

===Scott==
Who said they were a circus trick? I know they take strength, what else is new? Other than losing weight, which I am trying to do, have you any suggestions that are usefull?

What's your height and weight currently?
==Scott==
Five foot 8 at 170 ish? I need to lose about 5 pounds.

It is interesting study that you don't have the strength to do a decent # of chins. Apparently either your lats and biceps are too weak..or both. My guess is your lats are lacking because the biceps are easy to train and strengthen but effectively isolating the lats is impossible w/o a pullover machine.
==Scott==
I don't know if it's an interesting study or not as hardly anyone , yourself included, has come forward with how many chins they can do strictly? Do you realy think it's impossible with out a pullover? Sure pullovers are great but certainly other exercises cn work the lats as well?
But you DO have a pullover machine, correct?
==Scott==
Actually I have 3 pullovers, 2 of which have to go sometime for space needs if I can find someone to trade me a compound row for one? Anyone got a compound row to trade for a blue super pullover?
I take great care when I do the pullover machine. I actively keep my back FLAT against the back support, open my hands and push with the elbows only. This really isolates the lats for me. BUT this also INCREASES the stretch at the top, so I really slow down and I am very very careful not to over-stretch by moving too fast. (I hurt my shoulder once moving too fast that led to overstretching, i learned the hard way) I am real careful at the top.

==Scott==
I try on ocassion using only the elbows to push with and it does seem to isolate the lats better. Currently I have been trying one set of heavier less strict pullovers and then a set of elbow only pullovers. My lats seem to get a pretty good workin that way. For me biceps are real easy to isolate and work. With lats I just never could get good feel in them untill recently.My arms were probaly doing most of the work?


Why can you use more weight in pullover when you pull with the hands as opposed to pushing with elbows only? have you asked yourself that?
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chasbari

Ohio, USA

entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Scott,
I have my doubts you will ever be able to perform ten strict chins with B/W. Ask yourself why?

==Scott==
Baring injury in the near future I think I will do 10 strict chins! I've got the determination! I know you're refering to the bodyweight/fat issue which you keep harping on. Being able to do 10 chins wouldn't mean much to me if I had to slim down to a pencil to do them. I'll get 10 at my bodyweight eventually. Thin guys can always do more chins as they don't have as much to haul up but the guy who can do chins with the heavier body is a heck of alot stronger than the one who can do them with a thin flyweight body. Remember, I really just started doing chins. I hadn't really ever done them untill recently.Southbeach,you never have said how many you can do with your ultra trim physique??

Maybe you never did chins but you've been doing pulldowns and every other damn thing. Thin guys have less B/w but they also have a lot less muscle to go with those thin bodies.

Chins aren't a circus trick you need to practice (al least not the strict version). All it takes is strength.

===Scott==
Who said they were a circus trick? I know they take strength, what else is new? Other than losing weight, which I am trying to do, have you any suggestions that are usefull?

What's your height and weight currently?
==Scott==
Five foot 8 at 170 ish? I need to lose about 5 pounds.

It is interesting study that you don't have the strength to do a decent # of chins. Apparently either your lats and biceps are too weak..or both. My guess is your lats are lacking because the biceps are easy to train and strengthen but effectively isolating the lats is impossible w/o a pullover machine.
==Scott==
I don't know if it's an interesting study or not as hardly anyone , yourself included, has come forward with how many chins they can do strictly? Do you realy think it's impossible with out a pullover? Sure pullovers are great but certainly other exercises cn work the lats as well?
But you DO have a pullover machine, correct?
==Scott==
Actually I have 3 pullovers, 2 of which have to go sometime for space needs if I can find someone to trade me a compound row for one? Anyone got a compound row to trade for a blue super pullover?
I take great care when I do the pullover machine. I actively keep my back FLAT against the back support, open my hands and push with the elbows only. This really isolates the lats for me. BUT this also INCREASES the stretch at the top, so I really slow down and I am very very careful not to over-stretch by moving too fast. (I hurt my shoulder once moving too fast that led to overstretching, i learned the hard way) I am real careful at the top.

==Scott==
I try on ocassion using only the elbows to push with and it does seem to isolate the lats better. Currently I have been trying one set of heavier less strict pullovers and then a set of elbow only pullovers. My lats seem to get a pretty good workin that way. For me biceps are real easy to isolate and work. With lats I just never could get good feel in them untill recently.My arms were probaly doing most of the work?


Scott,
If you want to get a bit more from your pullovers I would suggest that you try to make your hands move out and away from the crossbar in the contracted position at the bottom of the movement. Since you tend to have good form with little pressure on the hands this outward rotation of the arms at the bottom may help you "feel it" in the lats a bit more. Just an old form variation from way back when.
Chuck
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