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Better Tricep Machine?
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

It seems that Arthur Jones got it right on several of his Nautilus machines. I hear all the time that the early bicep curl where there is two seats and the arm is up in the air next to the head was a great machine. I hear the plate loading pullover is a great machine etc etc.

I seems that for the tricps to be worked properly the tricep should be worked with arms up near the head as in a overhead extension ( towel and Multi machine) or the older tricep machine where the arms are down to the sides and back ( like I think Kurt has?) yet why did Jones not make a machine that works the tricep with arms up like the towel triceps ext.?

His triceps extension machines have the arm in the middle range almost.I don't know of any machine Nautilus or not out there where the arms are next to the head for extensions as they should be? Did Jones miss the boat here?

Scott
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southbeach

That was a great machine, and eliminated all "skill" from poor form, if you get my drift ;)

That bicep machine put a hurting on biceps like no barbell curl could do!

You know what he placed the arms into that position? Because the biceps tendon crosses the shoulder joint and could be more forcefully contracted in that position. More of his genius!
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kurtvf

entsminger wrote:
like I think Kurt has?

Scott


No, Torachyna has one. Be careful or you will give you-know-who a heart attack!
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Michael Petrella

Ontario, CAN

I have never used the Nautilus compound tricep but I passed on a couple simply because I Have never done a movement that hits the triceps as hard as the MEDX version.
(similiar movement)
Pumps my Tri's to new levels each time I use it. The contraction is so hard they cramp from the first rep.

Michael
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

I thought AJ believed the muscles should be hit hardest in the most contracted position, hence the overhead biceps machine.

Therefore, by his reasoning, just the opposite would be true.

I guess arms behind would be best, but as we see with kickbacks, they don't seem to have much strength in that position. Curious.

I know MM always liked Pushdowns, as do I. It's close to ultimate contraction position AND allows you to maximize the weight used (best of both worlds). You can always give a good squeeze at the bottom of each rep.
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southbeach

simon-hecubus wrote:
I thought AJ believed the muscles should be hit hardest in the most contracted position, hence the overhead biceps machine.

Therefore, by his reasoning, just the opposite would be true.

I guess arms behind would be best, but as we see with kickbacks, they don't seem to have much strength in that position. Curious.

I know MM always liked Pushdowns, as do I. It's close to ultimate contraction position AND allows you to maximize the weight used (best of both worlds). You can always give a good squeeze at the bottom of each rep.


that's because all learned skill from other devices (barbell, dumbells, poor designed machines "multi-purpose pulley machines) has been neutralized.

now it's all BICEPS, and NOTHING else. now you see just what your naked biceps can do.
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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

Michael Petrella wrote:
I have never used the Nautilus compound tricep but I passed on a couple simply because I Have never done a movement that hits the triceps as hard as the MEDX version.
(similiar movement)
Pumps my Tri's to new levels each time I use it. The contraction is so hard they cramp from the first rep.

Michael


Agreed.
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BennyAnthonyOfKC

Missouri, USA


I know this might appear like near-sacrilege, as I tend to favor the Jonesian equipment of Nautilus, HammerStrength and MedX, but I think the design that CYBEX popularized was almost perfect for it seems to me that the lower-region of the triceps (close to the elbow) is activated by gripping; of course, Arthur Jones had it right about the grip being detrimental to other exercises, like his gripless-pulldown, THE BEHIND THE NECK, that trainee the lats better than a standard pulldon that required gripping.

Nevertheless, one, or two, improvements are possible on the CYBEX TRICEPS, which the first and foremost is a more narrow arm-brace being employed so that the triceps are not compressed during training, albeit earlier models did have a more narrow pad for an arm-brace. Second, the whole concept of the CYBEX TRICEPS could be rotated, whereby the trainee is in a prone-position to the point the slight angle requires arm-bracing upon the bideps, instead of the triceps; moreoover, it might be possible that greater blood-flow could occur in this design, as the arms are below the heart.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Michael Petrella wrote:
I have never used the Nautilus compound tricep but I passed on a couple simply because I Have never done a movement that hits the triceps as hard as the MEDX version.
(similiar movement)
Pumps my Tri's to new levels each time I use it. The contraction is so hard they cramp from the first rep.

Michael


==Scott==
I've seen pictures of the early Nautilus tricep extension like Torachya has, sorry Kurt, and I've seen pictures of the Medx version tricep extension. Being that I've only seen pictures of both I can't figure out the main difference in the two? I know people say it's hard to keep the elbows down on the older Nautilus. How did that get fixed with the MedX? Anyone got a video of someone using a MedX tricep machine?
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Seems like the basic principle is the same in both old Nautilus and newer Medx?
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Here's the Medx tricep. How does this machine keep the arms from coming off the pads when using heavy weight as the older Nautilus supposedly did?

Scott
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Chasbari, chuck, I hope you see this. I know this as usual sounds crazy but as I doubt that since I might never find a machine like Torachya's I was wondering about the idea of converting my Nautilus multi tricep to more emulate the early tricep like Torachya's in the picture above or the MedX machine. I could flip the cam part with arms and pad forward so that the arms are now being pushed down towards the ground instead of out parallel with the ground , move the weight stack to the back and rearange the seat etc etc to better replicate the early nautilus that I believe works the triceps better. I still have the plate loading triceps ect. and I don't need two machines that do the same thing.

Scott
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chasbari

Ohio, USA

Scott,
Hard to tell by the angle of those pictures but I would guess that the MedX tricep stabilizes things by immobilizing upward shoulder movement with the shoulder pads and the elbow pad looks to be placed to be on the forearm and to move with the movement arm.

I think you are way overthinking the necessary changes to convert the pullover. It should actually require very little change to the overall mechanics of the pullover.
Chuck
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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

There is no single triceps machine or exercise that will apply well to the total triceps.

The best (or closest) thing I have found to a "complete" movement, action, and load, is the Lying Triceps Pullover and Press with Bands to add load to the ROM at full extension.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

chasbari wrote:
Scott,
Hard to tell by the angle of those pictures but I would guess that the MedX tricep stabilizes things by immobilizing upward shoulder movement with the shoulder pads and the elbow pad looks to be placed to be on the forearm and to move with the movement arm.

I think you are way overthinking the necessary changes to convert the pullover. It should actually require very little change to the overall mechanics of the pullover.
Chuck


==Scott==
Chuck, you and Bio already talked me out of converting my pullover, I'm now talking about converting my Nautilus multi tricep machine ( which I have two of) to work more like the pictured older one.
Or maybe now you're saying I should try and convert the pullover? I'm for trying either one to get a better tricep machine in the end.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

BIO-FORCE wrote:
There is no single triceps machine or exercise that will apply well to the total triceps.

The best (or closest) thing I have found to a "complete" movement, action, and load, is the Lying Triceps Pullover and Press with Bands to add load to the ROM at full extension.


==Scott==
I'm gonna try that exercise someday but for now my gym is so cramped with machines, junk, that I don't have the room. I've gotta rearange things some to try that exercise and time is very limited lately.
I'm sure there is no perfect machine to work the tricep or most any other muscle in their full range of motion but it seems like many people like the Medx version tricep ext. better than the Nautilus and I thought with some redoing I might convert an extra Nautilus machine to at least better work the tricep in that part of it's range?? I love tinkering with machines. It's almost as much fun as using them! I got this Paramount hip machine for free recently that I might try and convert it to something more usefull to me if my wife continues to not want to use it.
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chasbari

Ohio, USA

entsminger wrote:
BIO-FORCE wrote:
There is no single triceps machine or exercise that will apply well to the total triceps.

The best (or closest) thing I have found to a "complete" movement, action, and load, is the Lying Triceps Pullover and Press with Bands to add load to the ROM at full extension.

==Scott==
I'm gonna try that exercise someday but for now my gym is so cramped with machines, junk, that I don't have the room. I've gotta rearange things some to try that exercise and time is very limited lately.
I'm sure there is no perfect machine to work the tricep or most any other muscle in their full range of motion but it seems like many people like the Medx version tricep ext. better than the Nautilus and I thought with some redoing I might convert an extra Nautilus machine to at least better work the tricep in that part of it's range?? I love tinkering with machines. It's almost as much fun as using them! I got this Paramount hip machine for free recently that I might try and convert it to something more usefull to me if my wife continues to not want to use it.


Truth be told Scott, I have stopped doing the tricep extension that was shown in the video and have begun to use a tricep pushdown on the multi unit. It is far more effective and much more gentle on the elbow joint which was becoming a trouble spot with the compound position TE I was doing before. I will have to shoot some more video to show what I am now doing. It is quite possible to convert the multi tricep and it is also possible to make a machine for virtually any exercise but the question has to be is there any real added benefit in some cases beyond a much simpler and yet very accessible exercise?
Chuck
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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

I think the MedX triceps machine is really very good though it hits the muscle more like kick backs than anything. You'd want to work the MedX dip quite a bit as well.

Regards,
Andrew
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

chasbari wrote:
entsminger wrote:
BIO-FORCE wrote:
There is no single triceps machine or exercise that will apply well to the total triceps.

The best (or closest) thing I have found to a "complete" movement, action, and load, is the Lying Triceps Pullover and Press with Bands to add load to the ROM at full extension.

==Scott==
I'm gonna try that exercise someday but for now my gym is so cramped with machines, junk, that I don't have the room. I've gotta rearange things some to try that exercise and time is very limited lately.
I'm sure there is no perfect machine to work the tricep or most any other muscle in their full range of motion but it seems like many people like the Medx version tricep ext. better than the Nautilus and I thought with some redoing I might convert an extra Nautilus machine to at least better work the tricep in that part of it's range?? I love tinkering with machines. It's almost as much fun as using them! I got this Paramount hip machine for free recently that I might try and convert it to something more usefull to me if my wife continues to not want to use it.

Truth be told Scott, I have stopped doing the tricep extension that was shown in the video and have begun to use a tricep pushdown on the multi unit. It is far more effective and much more gentle on the elbow joint which was becoming a trouble spot with the compound position TE I was doing before. I will have to shoot some more video to show what I am now doing. It is quite possible to convert the multi tricep and it is also possible to make a machine for virtually any exercise but the question has to be is there any real added benefit in some cases beyond a much simpler and yet very accessible exercise?
Chuck


==Scott==
Yes, please show me some video of you doing pushdowns on a nautilus multi unit. Are we talking about the machine with dip and chin bars etc.? I just figured I have these extra machines sitting here and if I wait till someone wants to trade me something for one I'll be 90 so I may as well try and convert one to make it more usefull.
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chasbari

Ohio, USA

entsminger wrote:
chasbari wrote:
entsminger wrote:
BIO-FORCE wrote:
There is no single triceps machine or exercise that will apply well to the total triceps.

The best (or closest) thing I have found to a "complete" movement, action, and load, is the Lying Triceps Pullover and Press with Bands to add load to the ROM at full extension.

==Scott==
I'm gonna try that exercise someday but for now my gym is so cramped with machines, junk, that I don't have the room. I've gotta rearange things some to try that exercise and time is very limited lately.
I'm sure there is no perfect machine to work the tricep or most any other muscle in their full range of motion but it seems like many people like the Medx version tricep ext. better than the Nautilus and I thought with some redoing I might convert an extra Nautilus machine to at least better work the tricep in that part of it's range?? I love tinkering with machines. It's almost as much fun as using them! I got this Paramount hip machine for free recently that I might try and convert it to something more usefull to me if my wife continues to not want to use it.

Truth be told Scott, I have stopped doing the tricep extension that was shown in the video and have begun to use a tricep pushdown on the multi unit. It is far more effective and much more gentle on the elbow joint which was becoming a trouble spot with the compound position TE I was doing before. I will have to shoot some more video to show what I am now doing. It is quite possible to convert the multi tricep and it is also possible to make a machine for virtually any exercise but the question has to be is there any real added benefit in some cases beyond a much simpler and yet very accessible exercise?
Chuck

==Scott==
Yes, please show me some video of you doing pushdowns on a nautilus multi unit. Are we talking about the machine with dip and chin bars etc.? I just figured I have these extra machines sitting here and if I wait till someone wants to trade me something for one I'll be 90 so I may as well try and convert one to make it more usefull.


No, not a Nautilus OME. I currently have no Nautilus equipment. I was referring to my multi unit that I was doing pullovers and trice[ extension on in prior videos. What you cannot see is that it has a multi adjustable movement arm you can use for leg extension, leg curl, bicep, tricep, etc.. I will video how I am using it for tricep push downs at present. It is turning out to be quite effective if how I feel today is any indication of yesterday's workout.
Chuck
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Waynes

Switzerland

BIO-FORCE wrote:
There is no single triceps machine or exercise that will apply well to the total triceps.

The best (or closest) thing I have found to a "complete" movement, action, and load, is the Lying Triceps Pullover and Press with Bands to add load to the ROM at full extension.


Why please ??? Could you explain the biomechanics of the triceps, thus we all then might understand why you say no single triceps machine or exercise that will apply well to the total triceps.

I understand slightly, but not in full.

I will take in a look at RK book NOHM, and see if it says anything.

Wayne
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Tomislav

New York, USA

BennyAnthonyOfKC wrote:
... it seems to me that the lower-region of the triceps (close to the elbow) is activated by gripping


Benny,
That's an interesting observation; I agree with you something is going on with the lower tricep; think it also involves activation of the branchi as a better stabilizer - that's the only way to describe it; my elbows feel really stabilized when I do the heavy skull crushers with the thick bar compared to the standard bar - and as you pointed out, it feels like there's more activation near the elbow.

On the Cybex - I tried this machine last year with some friends; handles were tricky - spin out flip over and lock in, felt cool.

Is there such a thing as too much bracing allowing you to leverage in other muscle groups (canceling the isolation effect) though? I thought it would isolate the LH at least as well as skull crushers but I didn't really get sore there the next day.

Also something was off with the weight stack - not real lbs. It had a guard on it that prevented pinning a plate, so I did something like 15 reps with 190 (I'm only doing 8 with 150 lbs of freeweight - strict form but a little less ROM, so the poundage seems way off).
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chasbari

Ohio, USA

Tomislav wrote:
BennyAnthonyOfKC wrote:
... it seems to me that the lower-region of the triceps (close to the elbow) is activated by gripping


Benny,
That's an interesting observation; I agree with you something is going on with the lower tricep; think it also involves activation of the branchi as a better stabilizer - that's the only way to describe it; my elbows feel really stabilized when I do the heavy skull crushers with the thick bar compared to the standard bar - and as you pointed out, it feels like there's more activation near the elbow.

On the Cybex - I tried this machine last year with some friends; handles were tricky - spin out flip over and lock in, felt cool.

Is there such a thing as too much bracing allowing you to leverage in other muscle groups (canceling the isolation effect) though? I thought it would isolate the LH at least as well as skull crushers but I didn't really get sore there the next day.

Also something was off with the weight stack - not real lbs. It had a guard on it that prevented pinning a plate, so I did something like 15 reps with 190 (I'm only doing 8 with 150 lbs of freeweight - strict form but a little less ROM, so the poundage seems way off).


Tomislav,
Good observation on the weight stack. There is often not a real calibration between the movement arm and the actual weight used ratio in much equipment. I think of it in terms of what the clothing industry does in fudging sizes by giving more breathing room.

People can say they are still a size whatever even though they would never fit into a vintage model of their old clothing of the supposed same size. More weight moved over less distance is not the same weight... you know this and I know this but the majority of people would never give it a second thought so if they can process that when they went from one type of equipment to another and the new stuff allowed them to use 4 more plates it must have made them stronger so it must be better equipment.
Chuck
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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

AShortt wrote:
I think the MedX triceps machine is really very good though it hits the muscle more like kick backs than anything. You'd want to work the MedX dip quite a bit as well.

Regards,
Andrew


Good idea.
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frygator

Florida, USA

Waynes wrote:
BIO-FORCE wrote:
There is no single triceps machine or exercise that will apply well to the total triceps.

The best (or closest) thing I have found to a "complete" movement, action, and load, is the Lying Triceps Pullover and Press with Bands to add load to the ROM at full extension.

Why please ??? Could you explain the biomechanics of the triceps, thus we all then might understand why you say no single triceps machine or exercise that will apply well to the total triceps.

I understand slightly, but not in full.

I will take in a look at RK book NOHM, and see if it says anything.

Wayne


The reason the pullover/press is such a "complete" movement as stated by Bio-Force is because it stresses the muscle through it's entire function-the triceps' job is to bring the arm from overhead into the body and also extend the elbow.

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