MB Madaera
Lost 31.7 lbs fat
Built 11.7 lbs muscle


Chris Madaera
Built 9 lbs muscle


Keelan Parham
Lost 30 lbs fat
Built 4 lbs muscle


Bob Marchesello
Lost 23.55 lbs fat
Built 8.55 lbs muscle


Jeff Turner
Lost 25.5 lbs fat


Jeanenne Darden
Lost 26 lbs fat
Built 3 lbs muscle


Ted Tucker
Lost 41 lbs fat
Built 4 lbs muscle

 
 

Determine the Length of Your Workouts

Evaluate Your Progress

Keep Warm-Up in Perspective


ARCHIVES >>

"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

Mission Statement

H.I.T. Acceptable Use Policy

Privacy Policy

Credits

LOG IN FORUM MAIN REGISTER SEARCH
The Squat Redux
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next | Last
Author
Rating
Options

southbeach

http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=JGC_AS8GEY0

notice pause halfish way up and change in body segment position to completion. this is why i don't like the squat. no lock'n'load your joints all over the place as your body attempts to find the final solution to LEVERAGE to completion.those are places get hurt! :/
Open User Options Menu

SteveHIT

Heres a quote from you. . .

southbeach wrote:
Last time *I* did "Squats" there was 3 45lb )-plates on each side and some change for 20+ or odd so reps.

I admit that was some time ago.


Did you find them productive when you used to do them? Did you ever get injured?

Squats dont suit all people, even though I think most would benefit from them, If you have very long legs and a short torso, your probably more suited to deadlifts or trap bar deadlifts.

I think the exercises above are the best exercises you can do for overall growth and strength.

I have a longer torso and proportionately shorter legs, so its a great exercise for me and ive never had any injurys from squatting.
Open User Options Menu

kurtvf

southbeach wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=JGC_AS8GEY0

notice pause halfish way up and change in body segment position to completion. this is why i don't like the squat. no lock'n'load your joints all over the place as your body attempts to find the final solution to LEVERAGE to completion.those are places get hurt! :/



These are the reasons I like the squat, and I've never been injured. It is the best exercise period.
Open User Options Menu

davise

Been playing around with hip belt squats lately. Done off an elevated surface for reps they are killer on the quads (no lockout). No pain on the neck or lower back. You can use a lot less weight and still get an awesome workout. For those that can't afford an duo-squat or powerrack and don't have access to a gym, hip belt squats cannot be beat. I actually feel like they work the lower body better and I'm a lifelong ass to grass squatter.
Open User Options Menu

BIO-FORCE

California, USA

stevehit wrote:
Heres a quote from you. . .

southbeach wrote:
Last time *I* did "Squats" there was 3 45lb )-plates on each side and some change for 20+ or odd so reps.

I admit that was some time ago.

Did you find them productive when you used to do them? Did you ever get injured?

Squats dont suit all people, even though I think most would benefit from them, If you have very long legs and a short torso, your probably more suited to deadlifts or trap bar deadlifts.

I think the exercises above are the best exercises you can do for overall growth and strength.

I have a longer torso and proportionately shorter legs, so its a great exercise for me and ive never had any injurys from squatting.


Steve,

SB has never performed squat with 3 45# plates on a side except in his dreams, and he injured himself doing that.

All his AZZ 2 GRAZ claims are with NO WEIGHT and even then I have my doubts.

Open User Options Menu

southbeach

stevehit wrote:
Heres a quote from you. . .

southbeach wrote:
Last time *I* did "Squats" there was 3 45lb )-plates on each side and some change for 20+ or odd so reps.

I admit that was some time ago.

Did you find them productive when you used to do them? Did you ever get injured?

Squats dont suit all people, even though I think most would benefit from them, If you have very long legs and a short torso, your probably more suited to deadlifts or trap bar deadlifts.

I think the exercises above are the best exercises you can do for overall growth and strength.

I have a longer torso and proportionately shorter legs, so its a great exercise for me and ive never had any injurys from squatting.


Wouldn't a short torso be better with it's shorter lever from the center of pelvis to the bar?

the better lumbar lordosis would bring the bar back over the pelvis.

Open User Options Menu

southbeach

kurtvf wrote:
southbeach wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=JGC_AS8GEY0

notice pause halfish way up and change in body segment position to completion. this is why i don't like the squat. no lock'n'load your joints all over the place as your body attempts to find the final solution to LEVERAGE to completion.those are places get hurt! :/


These are the reasons I like the squat, and I've never been injured. It is the best exercise period.


Why do you say it is the best? The squat does not allow for "lock'n'load" therefore doesn't lend itself to a match of ANY particular muscle's torque curve, doesn't work any muscle thru it's full range do you say best simply because it works a lot more muscle groups however imperfectly?? :|
Open User Options Menu

antz

kurtvf wrote:
It is the best exercise period.


True - agree completely.
Open User Options Menu

physcult

southbeach wrote:



Why do you say it is the best? The squat does not allow for "lock'n'load" therefore doesn't lend itself to a match of ANY particular muscle's torque curve, doesn't work any muscle thru it's full range do you say best simply because it works a lot more muscle groups however imperfectly?? :|


just like Moment-Arm training avoids fullest ROM and still claims to be best.
Open User Options Menu

HSDAD

southbeach wrote:

Wouldn't a short torso be better with it's shorter lever from the center of pelvis to the bar?

the better lumbar lordosis would bring the bar back over the pelvis.



Drew Baye had a nice diagram posted on this board a few years ago showing why shorter femurs and a longer spine are better for squatting. In essence, whether squatting to parallel or below it, the point of parallel is where the back is the closest to horizontal and the ankle to ground angle is most acute. After, that, the knees and buttocks both start to move back to the center of motion and the tibias and spine begin to approach vertical again (although only a yogi could get them all the way back to vertical).

At parallel, knee flexion and back angle are both significantly less acute for the lifter with short femurs and long spine. As a person with the opposite situation anatomically speaking (long femurs, short torso) I can tell you that my safe deadlift is nearly double my safe squat (480 to 260). Also, you can tell quite easily which sort of lifter you're dealing with by watching them deadlift. When deadlifting, the weight doesn't move off the floor (if it's heavy) unless the glenoid cavity (shoulder socket) is a couple of inches in front of the bar. Looking at how high a lifters buttocks are when this position is acheived tells you the relative lengths of the femurs and torso. The higher the butt, the longer the femurs in relation to the torso. It's not perfect, but it's a good indication.

Open User Options Menu

Joseph Anderson

physcult wrote:

just like Moment-Arm training avoids fullest ROM and still claims to be best.


Really?? When has Bill ever made that claim??

I believe his claim is that of safety and congruence with the biomechanics, anatomy, physiology.

I've never read/heard him claim superiority.

Joe
Open User Options Menu

physcult

Joseph Anderson wrote:
physcult wrote:

just like Moment-Arm training avoids fullest ROM and still claims to be best.

Really?? When has Bill ever made that claim??

I believe his claim is that of safety and congruence with the biomechanics, anatomy, physiology.

I've never read/heard him claim superiority.

Joe


oh ok, its merely safer and congruent with the biomechanics and anatomy and physiology. (sounds as if that would make it a better choice to me)

It doesnt really matter, just like the squat, its still not using the fullest ROM on an action.
Open User Options Menu

southbeach

HSDAD wrote:
southbeach wrote:

Wouldn't a short torso be better with it's shorter lever from the center of pelvis to the bar?

the better lumbar lordosis would bring the bar back over the pelvis.



Drew Baye had a nice diagram posted on this board a few years ago showing why shorter femurs and a longer spine are better for squatting. In essence, whether squatting to parallel or below it, the point of parallel is where the back is the closest to horizontal and the ankle to ground angle is most acute. After, that, the knees and buttocks both start to move back to the center of motion and the tibias and spine begin to approach vertical again (although only a yogi could get them all the way back to vertical).

At parallel, knee flexion and back angle are both significantly less acute for the lifter with short femurs and long spine. As a person with the opposite situation anatomically speaking (long femurs, short torso) I can tell you that my safe deadlift is nearly double my safe squat (480 to 260). Also, you can tell quite easily which sort of lifter you're dealing with by watching them deadlift. When deadlifting, the weight doesn't move off the floor (if it's heavy) unless the glenoid cavity (shoulder socket) is a couple of inches in front of the bar. Looking at how high a lifters buttocks are when this position is acheived tells you the relative lengths of the femurs and torso. The higher the butt, the longer the femurs in relation to the torso. It's not perfect, but it's a good indication.



Very interesting, thanks for the detailed reply but i can't quite see it.
Open User Options Menu

Joseph Anderson

physcult wrote:

oh ok, its merely safer and congruent with the biomechanics and anatomy and physiology. (sounds as if that would make it a better choice to me)


It does sound like a better choice, but that doesn't neccesarily mean it is the most productive, effective, etc in terms of hypertrophy and strength. It might be, but Bill has never claimed that.


It doesnt really matter, just like the squat, its still not using the fullest ROM on an action.

You say that like it's a bad thing . . . exercise must be in fullest possible range??

Joe
Open User Options Menu

SteveHIT

southbeach wrote:
Wouldn't a short torso be better with it's shorter lever from the center of pelvis to the bar?

the better lumbar lordosis would bring the bar back over the pelvis.



First off can you answer the question. . .

Did you find them productive when you used to do them? Did you ever get injured?

maybe I should have added that long limbs (not just legs), short torso are good for deadlifting. So that should be self explanatory why its a good lift for that body type. As for the squat HSDAD explained it better than I could. Regardless of leverages, you'll find out which is best suited by giving both a fair go, and seeing the progression/ poundage difference.HSDAD is obviously made for the deadlift.

I really dont understand why you are attacking an exercise that is probably the biggest muscle builder in the whole of weight training. Some people would say the deadlift is, and it probably is for them if they are much more suited to it.

The 2 biggest mass/strength builders are some form of squat and/or some form of deadlift! End off!

People say they are into high intensity training, yet want to avoid the most intense, result producing exercise there is (if suited to it, which most are.)

It doesnt make sense to me that someone who wants to build muscle, is one minute saying eat low protein then the next saying the most productive exercise in dangerous.

Eating lettuce and doing leg extensions isnt going to make anyone big (maybe thats why your built like an X-Ray LOL!)
Open User Options Menu

physcult

Joseph Anderson wrote:
physcult wrote:

oh ok, its merely safer and congruent with the biomechanics and anatomy and physiology. (sounds as if that would make it a better choice to me)

It does sound like a better choice, but that doesn't neccesarily mean it is the most productive, effective, etc in terms of hypertrophy and strength. It might be, but Bill has never claimed that.


If its not better in terms of safety/strength/hypertrophy why suggest and recommend it? Are you suggesting its ineffective but safer? Of course he is suggesting its a better way to exercise - why bother otherwise?




It doesnt really matter, just like the squat, its still not using the fullest ROM on an action.

You say that like it's a bad thing . . . exercise must be in fullest possible range??

Joe


Im not saying it like its a good or bad thing - Im just pointing out that like the squat, Moment-Arm exercise doesnt try to find the fullest range of motion. If you want to criticise one - you must criticise the other. The original poster is the one that wants to suggest that an exercise is less effective because of the ROM. I would of thought it is self-evident that the squat works very well.

Open User Options Menu

physcult

stevehit wrote:

First off can you answer the question. . .

Did you find them productive when you used to do them? Did you ever get injured?



Imaginary squats and internet squats are nowhere near as productive as real squats.

I personally think he would of done better if he imagined he squatted 500lbs for 3 sets of ten, rather than imagining squatting 315lbs for 20.

While he was at it, he should of imagined he deadlifted 600lbs and inclined pressed 150lbs DBs as well.







Open User Options Menu

Joseph Anderson

physcult wrote:

If its not better in terms of safety/strength/hypertrophy why suggest and recommend it? Are you suggesting its ineffective but safer? Of course he suggesting its a better way to exercise - why bother otherwise?


Fair enough . . . and I don't want to put words in Bill's mouth, so I'll stop. But I definitely was not suggesting MaEx is ineffective.



Im not saying it like its a good or bad thing - Im just pointing out that like the squat, Moment-Arm exercise doesnt try to find the fullest range of motion. If you want to criticise one - you must criticise the other. The original poster is the one that wants to suggest that an exercise is less effective because of the ROM. I would of thought it is self-evident that the squat works very well.



aah . . gotcha. I misunderstood your response.

As far as it being self-evident: self evident requires self-experience . . . that could be the disconnect for the OP.

Joe
Open User Options Menu

southbeach

stevehit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Wouldn't a short torso be better with it's shorter lever from the center of pelvis to the bar?

the better lumbar lordosis would bring the bar back over the pelvis.



First off can you answer the question. . .

Did you find them productive when you used to do them? Did you ever get injured?


Compared to what?

maybe I should have added that long limbs (not just legs), short torso are good for deadlifting. So that should be self explanatory why its a good lift for that body type.

Short limbs and short torso are better for deadlifting, that should be self-explanatory. if you don't get it ask i will explain it to you in terms you could understand.

As for the squat HSDAD explained it better than I could. Regardless of leverages, you'll find out which is best suited by giving both a fair go, and seeing the progression/ poundage difference.HSDAD is obviously made for the deadlift.

I really dont understand why you are attacking an exercise that is probably the biggest muscle builder in the whole of weight training. Some people would say the deadlift is, and it probably is for them if they are much more suited to it.

The 2 biggest mass/strength builders are some form of squat and/or some form of deadlift! End off!

People say they are into high intensity training, yet want to avoid the most intense, result producing exercise there is (if suited to it, which most are.)

It doesnt make sense to me that someone who wants to build muscle, is one minute saying eat low protein then the next saying the most productive exercise in dangerous.

Eating lettuce and doing leg extensions isnt going to make anyone big (maybe thats why your built like an X-Ray LOL!)

The Squat is not the "biggest muscle builder in the world" but one of the few exercises that engage the fullest part of the kinetic chain or most muscle. Doesn't make it the biggest or the best for any particual muscle or close functional group. Try speaking with more precision if you are going to engage in sarcasm ..might just turn back on you ;)
Open User Options Menu

physcult

Joseph Anderson wrote:

aah . . gotcha. I misunderstood your response.
Joe


yes - I think so too.
Open User Options Menu

Joseph Anderson

physcult wrote:
Joseph Anderson wrote:

aah . . gotcha. I misunderstood your response. Self-evident requires self-experience . . . that could be the disconnect.
Joe


yes - I think so too.


My apologies, not enough coffee . . .

I edited the previous post, but to clarify, the end of my post was a separate point. I meant to say:

As far as it being self-evident: self evident requires self-experience . . . that could be the disconnect for the OP.

Joe
Open User Options Menu

FortCollinsFan

Wow all these "Imaginary squats and internet squats" are making me tired, whew. I better rest up or I might "Internet Overtrain", LOL
Open User Options Menu

SteveHIT

southbeach wrote:

Compared to what?



Compared to nothing, Did you even do squats? (if not your an idiot, for the statement you made) If so did you find them a productive exercise?

southbeach wrote:
Short limbs and short torso are better for deadlifting, that should be self-explanatory. if you don't get it ask i will explain it to you in terms you could understand.



Thanks for patronizing me little guy.

Ok, lets take it to an extreme, say someone has extremely long arms down to their shins then you have someone with little short arms that hang to their waist, who's better suited for the deadlift?

Im not going to go back and forth about this point, I really dont give a shit.

southbeach wrote:
The Squat is not the "biggest muscle builder in the world" but one of the few exercises that engage the fullest part of the kinetic chain or most muscle. Doesn't make it the biggest or the best for any particual muscle or close functional group. Try speaking with more precision if you are going to engage in sarcasm ..might just turn back on you ;)


Translation - Im so scared of squats im going to try and dodge the fact that they are the best overall muscle builder, but im afraid to do some real hard work.

What other single exercise will give you the same results as squats or deadlifts for overall strength/muscle mass? Im talking overall muscle remember, and please answer with the name of an exercise, instead of your usual bullshitting.
Open User Options Menu

SteveHIT

physcult wrote:
stevehit wrote:

First off can you answer the question. . .

Did you find them productive when you used to do them? Did you ever get injured?



Imaginary squats and internet squats are nowhere near as productive as real squats.

I personally think he would of done better if he imagined he squatted 500lbs for 3 sets of ten, rather than imagining squatting 315lbs for 20.

While he was at it, he should of imagined he deadlifted 600lbs and inclined pressed 150lbs DBs as well.



BIO-FORCE wrote:
Steve,

SB has never performed squat with 3 45# plates on a side except in his dreams, and he injured himself doing that.

All his AZZ 2 GRAZ claims are with NO WEIGHT and even then I have my doubts.


I'm starting to think you are both right.

I think the only time he squats is over the toilet, to get rid of some of the shit he's full of.

Open User Options Menu

Waynes

Switzerland

stevehit wrote:
physcult wrote:
stevehit wrote:

First off can you answer the question. . .

Did you find them productive when you used to do them? Did you ever get injured?



Imaginary squats and internet squats are nowhere near as productive as real squats.

I personally think he would of done better if he imagined he squatted 500lbs for 3 sets of ten, rather than imagining squatting 315lbs for 20.

While he was at it, he should of imagined he deadlifted 600lbs and inclined pressed 150lbs DBs as well.



BIO-FORCE wrote:
Steve,

SB has never performed squat with 3 45# plates on a side except in his dreams, and he injured himself doing that.

All his AZZ 2 GRAZ claims are with NO WEIGHT and even then I have my doubts.


I'm starting to think you are both right.

I think the only time he squats is over the toilet, to get rid of some of the shit he's full of.



ROL, will have to remember that one.

Wayne

Open User Options Menu
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | Next | Last
Administrators Online: Mod Phoenix
H.I.T. Acceptable Use Policy