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The Squat Redux
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natemason5

Ontario, CAN

stevehit wrote:

Squats dont suit all people, even though I think most would benefit from them, If you have very long legs and a short torso, your probably more suited to deadlifts or trap bar deadlifts.

I think the exercises above are the best exercises you can do for overall growth and strength.

I have a longer torso and proportionately shorter legs, so its a great exercise for me and ive never had any injurys from squatting.


Yeah...I'm definitely done with squats and moved on to leg press and deadlifts. I've got longer legs and short torso. When I squat with more than my body weight on the bar I lean forward and I just don't think that I need all of that pressure loaded onto my spine!

I believe that Squats or Deadlifts definitely should be a part of any training program designed to produce functional strength.

Nate
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southbeach

stevehit wrote:
southbeach wrote:

Compared to what?



Compared to nothing, Did you even do squats? (if not your an idiot, for the statement you made) If so did you find them a productive exercise?


Yes, compared to nothing I found squats to be productive 9when i did them)

southbeach wrote:
Short limbs and short torso are better for deadlifting, that should be self-explanatory. if you don't get it ask i will explain it to you in terms you could understand.



Thanks for patronizing me little guy.

Ok, lets take it to an extreme, say someone has extremely long arms down to their shins then you have someone with little short arms that hang to their waist, who's better suited for the deadlift?


I would say the ape is the better deadlifter ;)

Im not going to go back and forth about this point, I really dont give a shit.

southbeach wrote:
The Squat is not the "biggest muscle builder in the world" but one of the few exercises that engage the fullest part of the kinetic chain or most muscle. Doesn't make it the biggest or the best for any particual muscle or close functional group. Try speaking with more precision if you are going to engage in sarcasm ..might just turn back on you ;)

Translation - Im so scared of squats im going to try and dodge the fact that they are the best overall muscle builder, but im afraid to do some real hard work.

What other single exercise will give you the same results as squats or deadlifts for overall strength/muscle mass? Im talking overall muscle remember, and please answer with the name of an exercise, instead of your usual bullshitting.


I'm not afraid I just don't like squats. They are like using a shotgun when the precision of a sniper's rifle is better for hitting the target just where you want to ;)

Squats use more muscle less effectively. isolation use less muscle more effectively. i choose the latter anyday if i have a choice. no where in nature do you see animals place a load on base of neck and squat up and down.

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SteveHIT

southbeach wrote:
I'm not afraid I just don't like squats. They are like using a shotgun when the precision of a sniper's rifle is better for hitting the target just where you want to ;)


Then dont do them, but dont be another person spreading rumors of their dangers.

Im more for the shotgun, hit the muscles together and enjoy the overall growth from the compound movements.

If we took twins and put one on a leg extension and pec deck program and the other on a Squat and dip program, who would build the most muscle? The shotgun or the sniper's rifle?

There would be no competition and you know it.

southbeach wrote:
Squats use more muscle less effectively. isolation use less muscle more effectively. i choose the latter anyday if i have a choice. no where in nature do you see animals place a load on base of neck and squat up and down.


No where in nature do you see animals isolating muscles when physically working, the body works together as a unit.

Are you not an HIT'er? Is that not about getting the most growth for the least most intense work possible? Like most sensible drug free training should be. . . compound based.

Here's a video for correct bar placement.

http://www.youtube.com/...feature=related
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Joseph Anderson

southbeach wrote:

Squats use more muscle less effectively. isolation use less muscle more effectively. i choose the latter anyday if i have a choice. no where in nature do you see animals place a load on base of neck and squat up and down.



No where in nature do you see animals sit down at a leg extension machine and load the quad at the ankle. What's your point????

Joe
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southbeach

stevehit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
I'm not afraid I just don't like squats. They are like using a shotgun when the precision of a sniper's rifle is better for hitting the target just where you want to ;)


Then dont do them, but dont be another person spreading rumors of their dangers.


there is a very real lever arm from the center of mass of the bar and the center of mass of the L5 vertebra. That lever arm changes greatly with the bar translating in the horizontal. with the translation comes greater variance in mechanical stress & strain to the lumbar spine. as fatigue ensues one tends to bend further forward even further accentuating the lever to the lumbars. what started out as the lighter load to lumbars ends much greater and very much unknown. therein lies a danger

Im more for the shotgun, hit the muscles together and enjoy the overall growth from the compound movements.

If we took twins and put one on a leg extension and pec deck program and the other on a Squat and dip program, who would build the most muscle? The shotgun or the sniper's rifle?

There would be no competition and you know it.


Would the squat alone also build the greater mass of the hammies compared to thigh curls; the greater mass to sinae erectors than MedX Medical lumbar extension? Even the DEADLIFT is better than the squat for lumabr spinae erectors.. ask your self earnestly is it because the deadlift better ISOLATES the muscle of the lumber?? of course you know the answer is YES.

southbeach wrote:
Squats use more muscle less effectively. isolation use less muscle more effectively. i choose the latter anyday if i have a choice. no where in nature do you see animals place a load on base of neck and squat up and down.


No where in nature do you see animals isolating muscles when physically working, the body works together as a unit.

Are you not an HIT'er? Is that not about getting the most growth for the least most intense work possible? Like most sensible drug free training should be. . . compound based.

Here's a video for correct bar placement.

http://www.youtube.com/...related


isolation is not found in nature but neither is the squat. the squat is a skilled movement, nothing more.
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kurtvf

southbeach wrote:
no where in nature do you see animals place a load on base of neck and squat up and down.



I see animals run in front of cars all the time. Does that mean it is good?
I've never seen animals:
1. go to a gym
2. Do dead lifts, treadmills, ellipticals, lateral raises, barbell curls, squat thrusts, jumping jacks, etc., etc.
3. use toilet paper.

Nature sucks.....anyone that wants to be "all natural" isn't going to live for very long.

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kurtvf

southbeach wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=JGC_AS8GEY0

notice pause halfish way up and change in body segment position to completion. this is why i don't like the squat. no lock'n'load your joints all over the place as your body attempts to find the final solution to LEVERAGE to completion.those are places get hurt! :/


Notice the bounce at the bottom. His knees aren't exploding!!
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southbeach

correction:

i should say the squat is a skilled movement, little more. there is an element of strength
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SteveHIT

southbeach wrote:
there is a very real lever arm from the center of mass of the bar and the center of mass of the L5 vertebra. That lever arm changes greatly with the bar translating in the horizontal. with the translation comes greater variance in mechanical stress & strain to the lumbar spine. as fatigue ensues one tends to bend further forward even further accentuating the lever to the lumbars. what started out as the lighter load to lumbars ends much greater and very much unknown. therein lies a danger


I dont think you answered my question, did you ever get injured squatting? How many years did you squat?

====================================

If we took twins and put one on a leg extension and pec deck program and the other on a Squat and dip program, who would build the most muscle? The shotgun or the sniper's rifle?

There would be no competition and you know it.

An answer please?

southbeach wrote:
Would the squat alone also build the greater mass of the hammies compared to thigh curls; the greater mass to sinae erectors than MedX Medical lumbar extension? Even the DEADLIFT is better than the squat for lumabr spinae erectors.. ask your self earnestly is it because the deadlift better ISOLATES the muscle of the lumber?? of course you know the answer is YES.


I do stiff legged dead's for the hamstrings, I have nothing against leg curls, but I like to get the most out of each exercise lower back, hams, forearms, traps etc.

Anyway the question was what would build the most muscle?

southbeach wrote:
isolation is not found in nature but neither is the squat. the squat is a skilled movement, nothing more.


King Kong Squatted, thats what made him different from the other gorillas.

southbeach wrote:
i should say the squat is a skilled movement, little more. there is an element of strength


An element? what exercise can be more of a test of strength than a squat or deadlift? Most of the muscular structures of the body working together?

Is a leg extension a true test of strength? You dont even have to answer that, everyone knows.
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southbeach

stevehit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
there is a very real lever arm from the center of mass of the bar and the center of mass of the L5 vertebra. That lever arm changes greatly with the bar translating in the horizontal. with the translation comes greater variance in mechanical stress & strain to the lumbar spine. as fatigue ensues one tends to bend further forward even further accentuating the lever to the lumbars. what started out as the lighter load to lumbars ends much greater and very much unknown. therein lies a danger


I dont think you answered my question, did you ever get injured squatting? How many years did you squat?


uhh 6 yrs maybe, on and off.

yes, i injured my lumbar spine during a squat.

====================================

If we took twins and put one on a leg extension and pec deck program and the other on a Squat and dip program, who would build the most muscle? The shotgun or the sniper's rifle?

There would be no competition and you know it.

An answer please?


the squatters and dippers would build more muscle overall..



southbeach wrote:
Would the squat alone also build the greater mass of the hammies compared to thigh curls; the greater mass to sinae erectors than MedX Medical lumbar extension? Even the DEADLIFT is better than the squat for lumabr spinae erectors.. ask your self earnestly is it because the deadlift better ISOLATES the muscle of the lumber?? of course you know the answer is YES.


I do stiff legged dead's for the hamstrings, I have nothing against leg curls, but I like to get the most out of each exercise lower back, hams, forearms, traps etc.

Anyway the question was what would build the most muscle?


you didn't answer my question... does the deadlift build more lumbar muscle than the squat? why, doesn't the squat work lumbar muscle too?

southbeach wrote:
isolation is not found in nature but neither is the squat. the squat is a skilled movement, nothing more.


King Kong Squatted, thats what made him different from the other gorillas.

southbeach wrote:
i should say the squat is a skilled movement, little more. there is an element of strength

An element? what exercise can be more of a test of strength than a squat or deadlift? Most of the muscular structures of the body working together?

Is a leg extension a true test of strength? You dont even have to answer that, everyone knows.


the leg extension is a better measure of extensor torque about the knee than the squat. the squat, in your opinion is a measure of just ...uhh what??? lol

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SteveHIT

southbeach wrote:
I dont think you answered my question, did you ever get injured squatting? How many years did you squat?

uhh 6 yrs maybe, on and off.

yes, i injured my lumbar spine during a squat.


Why did it take you so long to tell us that?

On and off? can you be more specific more on or off?

Can you take me through how the injury happened?

southbeach wrote:
you didn't answer my question... does the deadlift build more lumbar muscle than the squat? why, doesn't the squat work lumbar muscle too?


Im not saying just do squats. Deadlifts target that area more but It certainly doesnt Isolate it. Just like Squats will target the quads more but it wont isolate them.

We are talking about Isolation vs compound for overall growth, It speaks volumes that you must use a compound movement such as the deadlift to try and prove your point, remember Im for deadlifts and compound movements in general for overall growth.

southbeach wrote:
the leg extension is a better measure of extensor torque about the knee than the squat. the squat, in your opinion is a measure of just ...uhh what??? lol


Functional strength, overall body strength ie: Quad strength, Glute strength, back strength, hamstrings strength, calf strength,(muscles working together as nature intended), Physical and Mental toughness.

If you think not, look at all the big heavy squatters, are they big strong people?

I hear they are replacing the squat as one of the powerlifts, with the leg extension. I think it will maybe catch on in the strongman world to, dont you?

Do you really thing the leg extension is any sort of rival for the squat an far as strength and muscle built?

I think not.
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SteveHIT

Just a few more things Southbeach,

what sort of weight where you squatting when you injured yourself?

Was your bar placement something like you seen in the video I posted or was it higher?

And was this injury the end of you squatting?

Thanks
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southbeach

stevehit wrote:
Just a few more things Southbeach,

what sort of weight where you squatting when you injured yourself?

Was your bar placement something like you seen in the video I posted or was it higher?

And was this injury the end of you squatting?

Thanks


Yes, at end of a set somewhere in the neighborhood of $50 for reps i believe..been awhile hard to recall exactly how much. all out set to failure only it was my spine that failed :|

Yes, bar placement was always low on the upper back.

Yes.

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SteveHIT

southbeach wrote:
stevehit wrote:
Just a few more things Southbeach,

what sort of weight where you squatting when you injured yourself?

Was your bar placement something like you seen in the video I posted or was it higher?

And was this injury the end of you squatting?

Thanks

Yes, at end of a set somewhere in the neighborhood of $50 for reps i believe..been awhile hard to recall exactly how much. all out set to failure only it was my spine that failed :|

Yes, bar placement was always low on the upper back.

Yes.



$50 for reps? how much sorry?
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antz

southbeach wrote:
correction:

i should say the squat is a skilled movement, little more. there is an element of strength


In my opinion, if one wants to become big and strong all over, squats and deadlifts are the answer.

Also in my opinion, since these movements require the body to work as a unit, they enhance neuromuscular efficiency (coordination).

One must first learn to do these movements correctly before piling on the poundages.

So if you got injured as a result of squatting, it may very well be because of performing it incorrectly and/or using too much weight.
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Joseph Anderson

antz wrote:

In my opinion, if one wants to become big and strong all over, squats and deadlifts are the answer.


Big is a product of genetics, food and training- has nothing to do with squats or DL.

Strong is a product of progressive resistance (and skill). One could squat and never become particularly strong. Another could machine train 'isolating' muscle groups and become strong as hell.

Also in my opinion, since these movements require the body to work as a unit, they enhance neuromuscular efficiency (coordination).

Coordination is related to a given task. Squatting would enhance the coordination of squatting. The transfer is negligible, i.e. squatting won't enhance the neuromuscular efficiency of jumping . . . that would require actually jumping (correctly).

One must first learn to do these movements correctly before piling on the poundages.

100% agree.

So if you got injured as a result of squatting, it may very well be because of performing it incorrectly and/or using too much weight.


Agreed.


Joe

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summaHIT

Ontario, CAN

First...the video shows one of the best weight lifters ever, so criticizing his lifting form is absurd.
Second...SB has some sort of obsession with NOT SQUATING BECAUSE YOU'LL DIE and EATING LIKE A GERBIL.
Obviously squatting is as dangerous as you make it. The leg press can be very dangerous as well. When I had a pretty good squat for reps I used the leg press only a few times because of the extreme pressure I felt on my lower back. This could have been a poor machine design but I was filling the entire machine with 45's and that seems dangerous as well. The stress on my knees also seemed greater on the leg press compared to a full squat.
It's all relative and probably individualistic.
Also, pure isolation exercises like SB advocates will never beat compound exercises for putting on muscle. The squat and more so the dead lift are the best for building muscle...period.
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SteveHIT

stevehit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
stevehit wrote:
Just a few more things Southbeach,

what sort of weight where you squatting when you injured yourself?

Was your bar placement something like you seen in the video I posted or was it higher?

And was this injury the end of you squatting?

Thanks

Yes, at end of a set somewhere in the neighborhood of $50 for reps i believe..been awhile hard to recall exactly how much. all out set to failure only it was my spine that failed :|

Yes, bar placement was always low on the upper back.

Yes.



$50 for reps? how much sorry?


Southbeach would you answer the question please, how much weight did you mean you where using when you got hurt?
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SteveHIT

stevehit wrote:
stevehit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
stevehit wrote:
Just a few more things Southbeach,

what sort of weight where you squatting when you injured yourself?

Was your bar placement something like you seen in the video I posted or was it higher?

And was this injury the end of you squatting?

Thanks

Yes, at end of a set somewhere in the neighborhood of $50 for reps i believe..been awhile hard to recall exactly how much. all out set to failure only it was my spine that failed :|

Yes, bar placement was always low on the upper back.

Yes.



$50 for reps? how much sorry?

Southbeach would you answer the question please, how much weight did you mean you where using when you got hurt?


Im still waiting. . . .
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SteveHIT

John Christy on muscles worked in squats and deadlifts.

Squats:

Prime movers; hip flexors, hamstrings, glutes, quads

Synergist-supporter; lower back, upper back, abdominals, biceps, calves, forearms

Note: when squatting properly, no muscle is left out of the game!

Deadlifts (all bent-legged varieties)

Prime movers: hamstrings, glutes, hip-flexors, quads

Synergist-supporters: lower back and all upper back muscles, delts, forearms, calves (again, like the squat most of the musculature of the body is hit hard)
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antz

Joseph Anderson wrote:
antz wrote:

In my opinion, if one wants to become big and strong all over, squats and deadlifts are the answer.

Big is a product of genetics, food and training- has nothing to do with squats or DL.

Strong is a product of progressive resistance (and skill). One could squat and never become particularly strong. Another could machine train 'isolating' muscle groups and become strong as hell.

Also in my opinion, since these movements require the body to work as a unit, they enhance neuromuscular efficiency (coordination).

Coordination is related to a given task. Squatting would enhance the coordination of squatting. The transfer is negligible, i.e. squatting won't enhance the neuromuscular efficiency of jumping . . . that would require actually jumping (correctly).



1) Genetics and Food are always part of the picture here. But if you want overall muscular size and strength, then you are better off doing squats rather than concentration curls. That is what I meant here.

2) In my opinion, the person who cannot become strong by doing squats and deadlifts cannot become strong by using machine isolation movements as well.

3) My coordination was not very good before I started doing squats and deadlifts. So I know that from my experience, the neuromuscular efficiency or coordination improvements as a result of squatting and deadlifting certainly improved my normal day-to-day physical activities. For example, carrying heavy luggages in both hands (each weighed differently), also walking with a heavy luggage in one hand, etc.

But yes as you said squats may not improve your tennis.
(you chose jumping as an example, I believe vertical jumping will improve as a result of doing squats, because it primarily is a similar bipedal movement).
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SteveHIT

antz wrote:
But yes as you said squats may not improve your tennis.
(you chose jumping as an example, I believe vertical jumping will improve as a result of doing squats, because it primarily is a similar bipedal movement).


Strangely I was reading about this the other week, I was reading about squats and deadlifts improving jumping. . .

http://www.verticaljumping.com/...t_deadlift.html

A squat/deadlift would certainly help a basketball player or anyone who jumps in their sport.
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southbeach

stevehit wrote:
stevehit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
stevehit wrote:
Just a few more things Southbeach,

what sort of weight where you squatting when you injured yourself?

Was your bar placement something like you seen in the video I posted or was it higher?

And was this injury the end of you squatting?

Thanks

Yes, at end of a set somewhere in the neighborhood of $50 for reps i believe..been awhile hard to recall exactly how much. all out set to failure only it was my spine that failed :|

Yes, bar placement was always low on the upper back.

Yes.



$50 for reps? how much sorry?

Southbeach would you answer the question please, how much weight did you mean you where using when you got hurt?


i recall somewhere in neighborhood of 350.
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southbeach

antz wrote:
southbeach wrote:
correction:

i should say the squat is a skilled movement, little more. there is an element of strength

In my opinion, if one wants to become big and strong all over, squats and deadlifts are the answer.

Also in my opinion, since these movements require the body to work as a unit, they enhance neuromuscular efficiency (coordination).

One must first learn to do these movements correctly before piling on the poundages.

So if you got injured as a result of squatting, it may very well be because of performing it incorrectly and/or using too much weight.


so it is your opinion that these two exercises are magical and that no other come even close. whoop dee do. can you back it up?
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SteveHIT

southbeach wrote:
i recall somewhere in neighborhood of 350.


Do you recall for how many reps?
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