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The Squat Redux
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southbeach

stevehit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
stevehit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Do you use any machines in your traing, steve, besides the machined steel barbell? the barbell is a MACHINE you know, a man-made device for more efficient training over natural objects. the NAUTILUS machine is its successor, because the isolation is more efficacious. joint the 21st century steve

Is the squatting movement more natural than the leg extension?

If you still remain unconvinced, then ask yourself just why I am so anxious to convince you of the value of squats; after all, it makes no slightest difference to me whether you do squats or not -- or "how" you do them, if you do them. Squats are not something that I can sell you, nor did I invent them -- they are simply a very good form of exercise that cannot be duplicated insofar as benefits are concerned by any other single exercise.-Arthur Jones inventor of Nautilus exercise machines

Steve, does the squat build bigger thighs than the Duo-squat? Your turn..

It was Jones himself who admitted the squat couldnt really be improved by a machine. Why dont you ask Ellington, I believe it was in one of his books.

I guess its what you prefer, and have access to. Also different people are different in how they would respond.

By the way stop trying to turn this into Barbell vs Machine, I dont care what people use for resistance.


i don't know why but you're dodging the question steve
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SteveHIT

southbeach wrote:
steve, it's been a few years ago i don't recall exactly except to say it's a typical HIT set.. so probably 8 or 10 reps?? with most if not all i use the 8/12 2/4 protocol


southbeach wrote:
somewhere in neighborhood of 350.


you also say this was when you injured yourself, and that was the last time you squatted.

southbeach wrote:
Last time *I* did "Squats" there was 3 45lb )-plates on each side and some change for 20+ or odd so reps.


But in this quote you also say this "LAST TIME I DID SQUATS?"


You have also said on this forum . . .

southbeach wrote:
More than a couple guys here have blowed out spines from all that pressure.


Yet forgot to mention you where one of the ones who got hurt?

southbeach wrote:
i injured my lumbar spine during a squat.
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southbeach

stevehit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
steve, it's been a few years ago i don't recall exactly except to say it's a typical HIT set.. so probably 8 or 10 reps?? with most if not all i use the 8/12 2/4 protocol

Hmmmmmm? you also say this was when you injured yourself, and that was the last time you squatted.

southbeach wrote:
Last time *I* did "Squats" there was 3 45lb )-plates on each side and some change for 20+ or odd so reps.

I admit that was some time ago.

But in this quote you also say this "LAST TIME I DID SQUATS?"

Now while these poundages of course arent out of reach for a drug free man (Im squatting just under 400lbs for 10-12 reps),and I usually take people for their word (people who lie about this are really just lying to themselves) your stories seem to be inconsistent. May I suggest a log book, maybe you where squatting 135lbs for 2 reps, who knows. Maybe thats why your being so vague.

You have also said on this forum . . .

southbeach wrote:
More than a couple guys here have blowed out spines from all that pressure.

Yet forgot to mention you where one of the ones who got hurt?

Stop the scaremongering!

Goodbye!


Steve, that's about 300lbs. i don't see the problem??
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SteveHIT

southbeach wrote:
Steve, that's about 300lbs. i don't see the problem??

you dont?

southbeach wrote:
somewhere in neighborhood of 350.


300 or 350? maybe 400 or 250? maybe a bare barbell? who knows?

southbeach wrote:
so probably 8 or 10 reps?? with most if not all i use the 8/12 2/4 protocol


southbeach wrote:
Last time *I* did "Squats" there was 3 45lb )-plates on each side and some change for 20+ or odd so reps.

And you say this was the last time you squatted, both times!

20+ reps? or 8-12? Maybe it was 30+ reps, maybe it was 2 reps?

You have also said . . .

southbeach wrote:
More than a couple guys here have blowed out spines from all that pressure.


Yet forgot to mention you where one of the ones who got hurt?

You dont know what weight you used or for how many reps. You seemed to forget you got injured until I repeatedly asked you on this thread, and saying yes supported your case. Are you sure you even squatted at all? Maybe it was a dream?

======================================

I dont care what exercise you choose to do yourself, but I wont let you put people of productive exercises before giving them a fair go, learning proper technique and using appropriate weight.

I will repeat. . .

Stop the scaremongering!

and Goodbye!
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SteveHIT

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southbeach

Steve, I said from the outset that it was quite some time ago so i don't recall the exact weight or reps when the incident happened. I didn't blow out my spine. After the incident i healed and lightened the weight for more reps..like 20 or so. But then i got wise to fact that the squat is a too imperfect exercise so stopped altogether.

What difference does it make if they use 200lbs or 400lbs if the weight is close to one's current physical ability it is intense to them.

My criticism of the squat as a risky exercise stands. i won't go thru it again but it is not a "natural" movement as you claim. Nothing natural about a highly machine Olympic steel bar or a much more sophisticated machine the Nautilus.

So, now back to the point.. is the squat more effective than the Duo-squat for building thigh mass, in YOUR opinion? and why?

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SteveHIT

southbeach wrote:
Steve, I said from the outset that it was quite some time ago so i don't recall the exact weight or reps when the incident happened. I didn't blow out my spine. After the incident i healed and lightened the weight for more reps..like 20 or so. But then i got wise to fact that the squat is a too imperfect exercise so stopped altogether.


Clearly your a liar.

southbeach wrote:
What difference does it make if they use 200lbs or 400lbs if the weight is close to one's current physical ability it is intense to them.


I agree 100%, I have never said otherwise.

southbeach wrote:
My criticism of the squat as a risky exercise stands. i won't go thru it again but it is not a "natural" movement as you claim. Nothing natural about a highly machine Olympic steel bar or a much more sophisticated machine the Nautilus.


A machined bar is the tool, That means nothing, the movement is still natural.
Do you ever sit down or get up?

southbeach wrote:
So, now back to the point.. is the squat more effective than the Duo-squat for building thigh mass, in YOUR opinion? and why?


This isnt the point, I said "The 2 biggest mass/strength builders are some form of squat and/or some form of deadlift!" You have tried to use the deadlift against me to prove your point now your trying to use the duo "squat", if I where you and was interested id start a thread about squat vs duo squat. I have no interest.

Also please stop responding to this thread, you know you have proved nothing it just shows desperation.
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southbeach

stevehit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Steve, I said from the outset that it was quite some time ago so i don't recall the exact weight or reps when the incident happened. I didn't blow out my spine. After the incident i healed and lightened the weight for more reps..like 20 or so. But then i got wise to fact that the squat is a too imperfect exercise so stopped altogether.


Clearly your a liar.

southbeach wrote:
What difference does it make if they use 200lbs or 400lbs if the weight is close to one's current physical ability it is intense to them.


I agree 100%, I have never said otherwise.

southbeach wrote:
My criticism of the squat as a risky exercise stands. i won't go thru it again but it is not a "natural" movement as you claim. Nothing natural about a highly machine Olympic steel bar or a much more sophisticated machine the Nautilus.


A machined bar is the tool, That means nothing, the movement is still natural.
Do you ever sit down or get up?

southbeach wrote:
So, now back to the point.. is the squat more effective than the Duo-squat for building thigh mass, in YOUR opinion? and why?


This isnt the point, I said "The 2 biggest mass/strength builders are some form of squat and/or some form of deadlift!" You have tried to use the deadlift against me to prove your point now your trying to use the duo "squat", if I where you and was interested id start a thread about squat vs duo squat. I have no interest.

Also please stop responding to this thread, you know you have proved nothing it just shows desperation.


When was last time you sat down with 400lbs perched on your thoracic spine (outside the gym)? That is not a movement that is seen in nature.

Why are you so afraid of a simple question... is the barbell squat more effective at building thigh mass than the duo-squat? and why?

that IS the point steve, answer the question or risk being disingenuous :/
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Waynes

Switzerland

Tell him how tall your are southbeach, and your weight.

Wayne
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southbeach

Waynes wrote:
Tell him how tall your are southbeach, and your weight.

Wayne


last time i recall i was somewhere in the neighborhood 6'6" @212 ;)

of course i jest

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SteveHIT

southbeach wrote:
When was last time you sat down with 400lbs perched on your thoracic spine (outside the gym)? That is not a movement that is seen in nature.


Can you explain how leg extensions are in any way natural?

Which "MOVEMENT" is more natural?

Remember MOVEMENT no machines or barbells, MOVEMENT.

southbeach wrote:
Why are you so afraid of a simple question... is the barbell squat more effective at building thigh mass than the duo-squat? and why?


Ive always squatted with a barbell, my thighs are 28", do you use a duo squat? How big are your legs?

Do you see how stupid you question is now? Its about what you can progress on.

I expect you to say the duo squat isolates more or some shit like that, the duo squat is a compound movement as well. Thats my point, compound movements build more overall muscle!

You know your onto a loser with the leg extension, so your trying another angle. Hopefully I'll say something bad about machines, then someone who trains with machines will jump in and rescue you!

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH MACHINES!

southbeach wrote:
that IS the point steve, answer the question or risk being disingenuous :/


Im still waiting for you to tell me 2 exercises that build more overall muscle than some form of squat or deadlift?

LOL! You cant can you?

Just let go of this thread, Its just me and you arguing about points that have already been made.
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dhitquinn

Steve dont bother trying to convince him mate your wasting your breath. let these people leg extension themselves to death who cares so long as it doesnt hurt us let them get on with it.

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SteveHIT

ddhitquinn wrote:
Steve dont bother trying to convince him mate your wasting your breath. let these people leg extension themselves to death who cares so long as it doesnt hurt us let them get on with it.


Your right, but I dont like people trying to put other people of exercises that can be very productive, especially when the replacement is not very productive at best, and dangerous to the knees and builds 0 functional strength at worst.

How many skinny fuckers at the gym are isolating every muscle and getting nowhere?

But anyway this guy has never done squats if he didnt prove this by saying leg extensions where tougher than squats then he did by lying about his numbers and reps.
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southbeach

stevehit wrote:
ddhitquinn wrote:
Steve dont bother trying to convince him mate your wasting your breath. let these people leg extension themselves to death who cares so long as it doesnt hurt us let them get on with it.


Your right, but I dont like people trying to put other people of exercises that can be very productive, especially when the replacement is not very productive at best, and dangerous to the knees and builds 0 functional strength at worst.

How many skinny fuckers at the gym are isolating every muscle and getting nowhere?

But anyway this guy has never done squats if he didnt prove this by saying leg extensions where tougher than squats then he did by lying about his numbers and reps.


Steven, squats work more muscle mass at one time that any other exercise except maybe the deadlift which is a dead heat, of course i agree.

But my point which you fail to acknowledge is that the squat is an imperfect exercise for any one muscle or close related group. Working all the lower muscles separately will give better results. Each worked to failure through the greater ROM. The squat can never do this. It is imperfect.

But YES the squat does work more muscle at one time, however imperfectly. I don't care that working those same muscles separately take 5 minutes instead of 1 minute squatting. 4 additional minutes in the gym, big whoop!

Working any large muscle to complete failure is harder than any squat set with its incomplete utilization of those respective muscle.
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dhitquinn

stevehit wrote:
ddhitquinn wrote:
Steve dont bother trying to convince him mate your wasting your breath. let these people leg extension themselves to death who cares so long as it doesnt hurt us let them get on with it.


Your right, but I dont like people trying to put other people of exercises that can be very productive, especially when the replacement is not very productive at best, and dangerous to the knees and builds 0 functional strength at worst.

How many skinny fuckers at the gym are isolating every muscle and getting nowhere?

But anyway this guy has never done squats if he didnt prove this by saying leg extensions where tougher than squats then he did by lying about his numbers and reps.


I completely agree, there are numerous idiots in the gym 'blasting' their legs/muscles in general with useless isolation exercises and damagaing themselves in the process.

the 2 kinds of people i find who dont appreciate squats are

1) the twat who does 2 inch squats with weeny weights/weights far too heavy for him and as a result never experiences the sheer pain and fatigue the following day that they bring so he gets it into his head 'whats all the fuss about'


2) the semi serious person who does squat low enough but only ever uses maximum poundages that allow 5-6 reps his supporting muscles give out before his legs are even worked and he too never experiences the sheer pain and swollen feeling that you get when you use higher reps and 'lighter' weights.

high rep squatting in my opinion separates the gays from the straights it takes a level of mental toughness no exercise can match particularly exercises like leg extensions and pec flyes etc.

personally i remember a lazy period when i convinced myself that leg extensions were as productive as other leg exercises, admittedly i was very sore the next day especially down near the knees but i experienced little or no growth and always lost bodyweight, to make matters worse when i returned to squats the pain in my knees was utterly incredible i could not squat at all for about a month i have not touched the exercise since and dont intend to again.

let face it the squat is hellish if there was another exercise as productive but less painful i would use it in a heartbeat but there isnt so you just have to get on with it.

Trap bar deadlifting is a great squat alternative and for some may be even more productive than the squat but again lets face it how many gyms have trap bars?

The exercises i use and find to be the best for legs are

straight legged calf raises
squats
leg curls lying or seated preferrably lying
and stiff legged deadlifts

Dave
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southbeach

ddhitquinn wrote:
stevehit wrote:
ddhitquinn wrote:
Steve dont bother trying to convince him mate your wasting your breath. let these people leg extension themselves to death who cares so long as it doesnt hurt us let them get on with it.


Your right, but I dont like people trying to put other people of exercises that can be very productive, especially when the replacement is not very productive at best, and dangerous to the knees and builds 0 functional strength at worst.

How many skinny fuckers at the gym are isolating every muscle and getting nowhere?

But anyway this guy has never done squats if he didnt prove this by saying leg extensions where tougher than squats then he did by lying about his numbers and reps.

I completely agree, there are numerous idiots in the gym 'blasting' their legs/muscles in general with useless isolation exercises and damagaing themselves in the process.

the 2 kinds of people i find who dont appreciate squats are

1) the twat who does 2 inch squats with weeny weights/weights far too heavy for him and as a result never experiences the sheer pain and fatigue the following day that they bring so he gets it into his head 'whats all the fuss about'


2) the semi serious person who does squat low enough but only ever uses maximum poundages that allow 5-6 reps his supporting muscles give out before his legs are even worked and he too never experiences the sheer pain and swollen feeling that you get when you use higher reps and 'lighter' weights.

high rep squatting in my opinion separates the gays from the straights it takes a level of mental toughness no exercise can match particularly exercises like leg extensions and pec flyes etc.

personally i remember a lazy period when i convinced myself that leg extensions were as productive as other leg exercises, admittedly i was very sore the next day especially down near the knees but i experienced little or no growth and always lost bodyweight, to make matters worse when i returned to squats the pain in my knees was utterly incredible i could not squat at all for about a month i have not touched the exercise since and dont intend to again.

let face it the squat is hellish if there was another exercise as productive but less painful i would use it in a heartbeat but there isnt so you just have to get on with it.

Trap bar deadlifting is a great squat alternative and for some may be even more productive than the squat but again lets face it how many gyms have trap bars?

The exercises i use and find to be the best for legs are

straight legged calf raises
squats
leg curls lying or seated preferrably lying
and stiff legged deadlifts

Dave


Leg curls?? why?
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dhitquinn

leg curls? why??

because i feel that they add to my overall hamstring development i also do then first to tighten my hamstrings before i do my stiff leg deadlifts which makes me fell the pull and stretch of the lift better. it also reduces the weight i use on the deadlifts sparing a little bit of back stress.
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southbeach

ddhitquinn wrote:
leg curls? why??

because i feel that they add to my overall hamstring development i also do then first to tighten my hamstrings before i do my stiff leg deadlifts which makes me fell the pull and stretch of the lift better. it also reduces the weight i use on the deadlifts sparing a little bit of back stress.


oh so squats aren't enough? leg curls build great hammie mass. steven won't like you for this ;)

hwta the hell tell us about the leg extensions you sneak in too haha



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SteveHIT

ddhitquinn wrote:
high rep squatting in my opinion separates the gays from the straights it takes a level of mental toughness no exercise can match particularly exercises like leg extensions and pec flyes etc.


LOL! While I agree high rep squats are tough in the extreme, If they really dont suit you or you prefer something there are plenty of alternatives, Trap bar deadlifts, Hip belt squats, Front squats, maybe even a good leg press machine along with a stiff leg deadlift or something similar, but using 3 isolation exercises to try and make up for one of the big productive ones like the ones above is plain silly, the body doesnt work like that.

Im not against isolation movements if they are safe and not using up to much of your recovery ability, but not to replace a productive compound movement because of fear of hard work.

=======================================
southbeach wrote:
oh so squats aren't enough? leg curls build great hammie mass. steven won't like you for this ;)


Steve couldnt care less, I do stiff leg deads for my hamstrings, your point is what? did I ever say just squat? I also said earlier in the thread I have nothing against leg curls.

Isolation movements just need to be put in their place, as accessories not as the base of your routine.
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southbeach

stevehit wrote:
ddhitquinn wrote:
high rep squatting in my opinion separates the gays from the straights it takes a level of mental toughness no exercise can match particularly exercises like leg extensions and pec flyes etc.


LOL! While I agree high rep squats are tough in the extreme, If they really dont suit you or you prefer something there are plenty of alternatives, Trap bar deadlifts, Hip belt squats, Front squats, maybe even a good leg press machine along with a stiff leg deadlift or something similar, but using 3 isolation exercises to try and make up for one of the big productive ones like the ones above is plain silly, the body doesnt work like that.

Im not against isolation movements if they are safe and not using up to much of your recovery ability, but not to replace a productive compound movement because of fear of hard work.

=======================================
southbeach wrote:
oh so squats aren't enough? leg curls build great hammie mass. steven won't like you for this ;)


Steve couldnt care less, I do stiff leg deads for my hamstrings, your point is what? did I ever say just squat? I also said earlier in the thread I have nothing against leg curls.

Isolation movements just need to be put in their place, as accessories not as the base of your routine.


You and Bio should share rent.

Why do you need deadlifts for your hammies.. why isn't your squat enough stimulation?
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SteveHIT

southbeach wrote:
Why do you need deadlifts for your hammies.. why isn't your squat enough stimulation?


Ive only started them in the last couple of months, so we'll see how they go.

Ive already said in the post before "did I ever say just squat?"

I hear you've tried "fake squats", how are they on the lumbar spine? I hear they are the safest form of squat, but are not very productive probably on par with your isolation program.
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southbeach

stevehit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Why do you need deadlifts for your hammies.. why isn't your squat enough stimulation?

Ive only started them in the last couple of months, so we'll see how they go.

Ive already said in the post before "did I ever say just squat?"

I hear you've tried "fake squats", how are they on the lumbar spine? I hear they are the safest form of squat, but are not very productive probably on par with your isolation program.


Interesting you are now experimenting with isolation ala leg curls..

because the squat< the biggest mass builder in the history of tghe iron game, isn't cutting it for you??
YOU said:

" "The 2 biggest mass/strength builders are some form of squat and/or some form of deadlift!" You have tried to use the deadlift against me to prove your point now your trying to use the duo "squat", if I where you and was interested id start a thread about squat vs duo squat. I have no interest."

You now seem to have an interest in the thigh curl, what's up the squat not giving you enough love?

Just admit you are wrong before i emabrress you further with your own nonsense. :/

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SteveHIT

southbeach wrote:
stevehit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Why do you need deadlifts for your hammies.. why isn't your squat enough stimulation?

Ive only started them in the last couple of months, so we'll see how they go.

Ive already said in the post before "did I ever say just squat?"

I hear you've tried "fake squats", how are they on the lumbar spine? I hear they are the safest form of squat, but are not very productive probably on par with your isolation program.

Interesting you are now experimenting with isolation ala leg curls..

because the squat< the biggest mass builder in the history of tghe iron game, isn't cutting it for you??
YOU said:

" "The 2 biggest mass/strength builders are some form of squat and/or some form of deadlift!" You have tried to use the deadlift against me to prove your point now your trying to use the duo "squat", if I where you and was interested id start a thread about squat vs duo squat. I have no interest."

You now seem to have an interest in the thigh curl, what's up the squat not giving you enough love?

Just admit you are wrong before i emabrress you further with your own nonsense. :/



You have just embarrassed yourself (getting to be a theme on this thread), I have just started stiff legged deads recently, I dont do leg curls.

I also said "Isolation movements just need to be put in their place, as accessories not as the base of your routine."

Read the post again! Idiot!
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dhitquinn

Steve we are both wrong ive just been in the gym and banged out

10 sets of leg extensions
10 sets of leg presses
10 sets of seated leg curls
10 sets of lying leg curls
5 sets of stiff leg deadlift with barbell
5 sets of dumbell stiff leg deadlifts
8 sets of smith machine squats
4 sets of hack squats
3 sets of sissy squats

i was feeling ill so i cut back on the volume a bit

but ive just measured my legs they are now 35"
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SteveHIT

ddhitquinn wrote:
Steve we are both wrong ive just been in the gym and banged out

10 sets of leg extensions
10 sets of leg presses
10 sets of seated leg curls
10 sets of lying leg curls
5 sets of stiff leg deadlift with barbell
5 sets of dumbell stiff leg deadlifts
8 sets of smith machine squats
4 sets of hack squats
3 sets of sissy squats

i was feeling ill so i cut back on the volume a bit

but ive just measured my legs they are now 35"


LOL! I cant believe this clown is for real, one thread he's scaremongering against compound exercises, the other scaremongering about high protein, and Ive also seen a few jabs thrown against barbells?

Is he a troll or what?
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