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chasbari

Ohio, USA

Since there is no title line in Marcoph's post there is no way for me to respond directly so here is my response seperate from the actual post.. with apologies for not responding directly.

Unless, of course, you have experiential evidence that steers you clear of grains.
It has been a year since I went paleo in an attempt to treat my newly diagnosed celiac, which makes me somewhat of an aberration for argument's sake.
Since it has been nearly a year since I gave up on all alternate grains and since I sensed that my gut healing has gone quite well I decided to throw some corn back into the mix as it is supposed to be celiac safe.

Yesterday and today I can barely move as I am experiencing a rheumatoid arthritis flare the likes I haven't seen for the last twelve months. Hands that I have been able to use for the first time in the last several years weakened to the point that I can't even grab my clothes to get dressed. No digestive issues to note but I can say that after going paleo/anti-inflammatory I lost body fat, regained all sorts of functional strength and began to progress on workouts like never before in my entire life.

That being said, I would much rather be able to be the proponent of the normal diet I once was when I was a trainer. I would love to have a fried twinkie every now and then and would love to be able to eat some pizza or pie or... the list goes on.

Nonetheless I have been forced to learn that a paleo diet is a much healthier and much more viable way of maintaining superior strength and health in my case. To say, as a result of having open discussions here on the board from which I benefited in a life saving way, that HIT has been taken over by paleo is unfounded. I am not hurt if no one wants to try this even though I know many would benefit from it. Free country, free choice.
CS
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SanSooMan

Many "mainline" HITers follow the paleo diet including: Ken Hutchins, Drew Baye, Arthur DeVancy, Dr. McGuff, me and all human beings 10,000 BC and before.
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marcrph

Portugal

My title was "Green" Cave Man!

I do not see why the title was not
included.

For your condition, I agree 100 %!

However, not everyone has this disease, AND, should not steer clear of grains!

BTW, I wish to extend my best wishes and heart felt sympathy to you!
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Joshua Trentine

Ohio, USA

SanSooMan wrote:
Many "mainline" HITers follow the paleo diet including: Ken Hutchins, Drew Baye, Arthur DeVancy, Dr. McGuff, me and all human beings 10,000 BC and before.



I spoke to Ken today, he told me he does NOT follow The Paleo diet, much less know what it is or care to know.

I have not spoke to the others about this specific diet book although Drew has very recently said there is NO way we could even know what the "Paleo Diet" was.

i cannot speak on this diet i have not read any book about it, doubt i will.

i will say its impossible to narrow down any one "diet" that man ate 10,000 yrs ago.

Joshua
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goya

The paleo diet is kind of a myth. No matter what you do, you are not eating what your prehistoric ancestors ate.

They ate all kinds of roots, plants, insects and small mammals, that are either not available today or North Americans would not be inclined to eat. Furthermore there's new evidence that grains were used earlier than thought.

The paleo diet is the dietary equivalent of the noble savage myth.

And Arthur DeVany is not a HITer, he does not believe in failure and does 3 sets.
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SanSooMan

OK, I understood Ken followed the Zone diet, which is a paleo based diet, His most recent SS book writes about it and I know he interviewed Dr. Sears. But, if he said that, OK. Baye does say he follows the evolutionary diet, read his posts. And Art is close enough to HIT and is so damn smart will forgive him for not going to failure, he looks great at 72!
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SanSooMan

A good way to start is to find out what they did not eat, my guess would be processed carbohydrate. Gary Taubes and Dr. Barry Groves are two principle writers on the high fat/moderate protein/low carb "diet"
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Lioncourt

SanSooMan wrote:
Many "mainline" HITers follow the paleo diet including: Ken Hutchins, Drew Baye, Arthur DeVancy, Dr. McGuff, me and all human beings 10,000 BC and before.


Except for the fact that new archeological evidence is showing that humans included a large amount of grains in their diet 100,000 years ago.

http://www.cbc.ca/...frica-cave.html

Paleo nutters are going to have to rethink their arguments.
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WesH

goya wrote:
The paleo diet is kind of a myth. No matter what you do, you are not eating what your prehistoric ancestors ate.

They ate all kinds of roots, plants, insects and small mammals, that are either not available today or North Americans would not be inclined to eat. Furthermore there's new evidence that grains were used earlier than thought.

The paleo diet is the dietary equivalent of the noble savage myth..


Injuns, zulus, and eskimos are much more recent than the paleolithic age, so it may be better to refer to them as pre-agrarian diets. What all these ancient and pseudo-ancient diets have in common is no refined carbs; grains and sugar. that's the key point.

As for the evidence that grains were used earlier than previously thought, here's the link to the very short "paper"

http://www.canibaisereis.com/...-grass-seed.pdf

I'd say it's a big stretch, since it's unlikely middle stone age people possessed the necessary storage capacity for this to be anything but a seasonal addition to diet, but if true it simply means people gave themselves pellagra even sooner than previously known. these people must have been starving.

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SanSooMan

Not very likely since the diesases of civilization are never found in hunter-gather "tribes" even to this day, but where rampant in known grain eatting societies like early Egypt. After about 20 years of a "sugar" diet these dieases tend to show their ugly faces in primitive tribes such as Eskimos and New Zealand Maori. The evidence is so compelling as to make any other explanation a joke. Again, Gary Taubes, Barry Groves, Art Devancy, Westen Price all make it so clear.
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goya

SanSooMan wrote:
A good way to start is to find out what they did not eat, my guess would be processed carbohydrate. Gary Taubes and Dr. Barry Groves are two principle writers on the high fat/moderate protein/low carb "diet"


The only thing I limit is fructose. I eat 1/2 fruits a day max. I prefer vegetables anyways. And skip on HFCS drinks.

I do believe that a high fat diet to control insulin is overkill and probably not very healthy. People always use the Eskimos as a reference. Well I am not one and there are none in my genealogical tree, so I certainly ain't going to eat like one.

Arthur de Vany is kind of popular right now. But people forget that Clarence Bass is about his age, probably leaner and eats whole grains with low fat (but still enough to function). He dabbled with low carb diets when he wrote his first book, but does not recommend it as it was making him feel tired and irritable.
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SanSooMan

Well, all traditional carnivorous diets, whether by animal or humans, are more fat than protein. The ratio is something like 75-80% calories from fat, 20% protein. All primitive peoples know to avoid a high protein diet, which can kill you. The early Hebrews as well as the mycenian Greeks considered fat the most valuble part of the animal and wrote praises of it. These early peoples knew what worked and should be dismissed because it is not scientific in nature. The saturated fat found in meat also contains the anti-cancer CLA. Good reason to eat your fat.
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Drew Baye

Florida, USA

I don't have time for details, but one comment:

Keep workout charts, a daily journal on your physical well-being, performance, health, etc., and try eating one way for a few months, another for a few months after that, and note how you feel.

My own experience has been I look and feel better when eating more of a Zone / Paleo (according to Cordain's books) / Protein Power type diet.

Technically, there is no one "paleo" diet, since diet would vary depending on geographic location, season, and I suspect even social position would have determined which members of a group had access to certain amounts and parts of available foods.

That being said, our stone age / pre-agricultural ancestors did not include large amounts of refined carbohydrates in their diets, and I would be highly suspicious of claims to the contrary.
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southbeach

SanSooMan wrote:
Well, all traditional carnivorous diets, whether by animal or humans, are more fat than protein. The ratio is something like 75-80% calories from fat, 20% protein. All primitive peoples know to avoid a high protein diet, which can kill you. The early Hebrews as well as the mycenian Greeks considered fat the most valuble part of the animal and wrote praises of it. These early peoples knew what worked and should be dismissed because it is not scientific in nature. The saturated fat found in meat also contains the anti-cancer CLA. Good reason to eat your fat.


You might want to rethink this. At very least this should give you pause with your conviction that fat is healthy :|

ATHEROSCLEROSIS IN THE MASAI1
GEORGE V. MANN, ANNE SPOERRY, MARGARETE GARY and DEBRA JARASHOW

Mann, G. V. (Vanderbilt Univ. School of Medicine, Nashville, Tenn. 37203), A. Spoerry, M. Gray, and D. Jarashow. Atherosclerosis in the Masai. Am J Epidemiol 95: 26?37, 1972.?The hearts and aortae of 50 Masai men were collected at autopsy. These pastoral people are exceptionally active and fit and they consume diets of milk and meat. The intake of animal fat exceeds that of American men. Measurements of the aorta showed extensive atherosclerosis with lipid infiltration and fibrous changes but very few complicated lesions. The coronary arteries showed intimal thickening by atherosclerosis which equaled that of old U.S. men. The Masai vessels enlarge with age to more than compensate for this disease. It is speculated that the Masai are protected from their atherosclerosis by physical fitness which causes their coronary vessels to be capacious.



1 From the Nutrition Division, vanderbilt University, Nashville, Tennessee 37203 (G. V. Mann and D. Jarashow), and the Aftrican Medical and Research Foundation, Nairobi (A. Spoerry and M. Gray).
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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

It is very individualistic. I have a client with chrons and he and his chronic fatigue diagnosed wife are thriving on it. I wither on it and get best results with a almost opposite approach. Many of my clients use a mix some leaning farther away from grains than others.

Regards,
Andrew
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SanSooMan

I will go with the Greeks and their mediterranean "diet" which is a high fat diet any day for it is proven in history, verses the Keys diet which is based on ideogy and bad science
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southbeach

SanSooMan wrote:
I will go with the Greeks and their mediterranean "diet" which is a high fat diet any day for it is proven in history, verses the Keys diet which is based on ideogy and bad science


but sansooman, the benefit is in their low fat intake and high vegetable intake.

Adherence to a Mediterranean diet and survival in a Greek population.
N Engl J Med. 2003 Jun 26;348(26):2599-608
Trichopoulou A, Costacou T, Bamia C, Trichopoulos D.

The traditional Mediterranean diet is characterized by a high intake of vegetables, legumes, fruits and nuts, and cereals (that in the past were largely unrefined), and a high intake of olive oil but a low intake of saturated lipids, a moderately high intake of fish (depending on the proximity of the sea), a low-to-moderate intake of dairy products (and then mostly in the form of cheese or yogurt), a low intake of meat and poultry.

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SanSooMan

Look, not personal, but I'm Greek and can tell you those experts who say the med. diet is anything but a high fat/low carb diet have never been to Greece, spain, France or parts of Rome. I have. THey are simply full of shit! The real med. diet does not use veg. oils and sat. fat is always kept on the meat. Lamb anyone?
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southbeach

SanSooMan wrote:
Look, not personal, but I'm Greek and can tell you those experts who say the med. diet is anything but a high fat/low carb diet have never been to Greece, spain, France or parts of Rome. I have. THey are simply full of shit! The real med. diet does not use veg. oils and sat. fat is always kept on the meat. Lamb anyone?


Look at their NAMES. now tell me they don't know Greek! ;)

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fury-

Joshua Trentine wrote:
SanSooMan wrote:
Many "mainline" HITers follow the paleo diet including: Ken Hutchins, Drew Baye, Arthur DeVancy, Dr. McGuff, me and all human beings 10,000 BC and before.


I spoke to Ken today, he told me he does NOT follow The Paleo diet, much less know what it is or care to know.

I have not spoke to the others about this specific diet book although Drew has very recently said there is NO way we could even know what the "Paleo Diet" was.

i cannot speak on this diet i have not read any book about it, doubt i will.

i will say its impossible to narrow down any one "diet" that man ate 10,000 yrs ago.

Joshua


I am interested to here your take on the raw food diet, listening to superhumanradio Carl mentioned randy getting u involved with raw foods and milk, and it was having a really positive effect. I would really like to here about your experience thus far.
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fury-

Joshua Trentine wrote:
SanSooMan wrote:
Many "mainline" HITers follow the paleo diet including: Ken Hutchins, Drew Baye, Arthur DeVancy, Dr. McGuff, me and all human beings 10,000 BC and before.


I spoke to Ken today, he told me he does NOT follow The Paleo diet, much less know what it is or care to know.

I have not spoke to the others about this specific diet book although Drew has very recently said there is NO way we could even know what the "Paleo Diet" was.

i cannot speak on this diet i have not read any book about it, doubt i will.

i will say its impossible to narrow down any one "diet" that man ate 10,000 yrs ago.

Joshua


Well it seems my first attempt at a reply didnt go thru. Josh I am interested to hear your take on raw food and raw milk, after hearing Carl say you were experiencing positive results when randy got you eating raw, on superhumanradio, i just want to know your personal experience with it.
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fury-

Drew Baye wrote:
I don't have time for details, but one comment:

Keep workout charts, a daily journal on your physical well-being, performance, health, etc., and try eating one way for a few months, another for a few months after that, and note how you feel.

My own experience has been I look and feel better when eating more of a Zone / Paleo (according to Cordain's books) / Protein Power type diet.

Technically, there is no one "paleo" diet, since diet would vary depending on geographic location, season, and I suspect even social position would have determined which members of a group had access to certain amounts and parts of available foods.

That being said, our stone age / pre-agricultural ancestors did not include large amounts of refined carbohydrates in their diets, and I would be highly suspicious of claims to the contrary.


This is very interesting Drew, I am wondering if you have ever heard of Metabolic Typing? This is a very highly individualized way of eating and it is very much based on journaling your food entries and seeing how u feel to get the optimum macro ratio for your individual type and body.
And by the sounds of it you are probably a fast oxidizer, meaning you burn through carbs quickly, and would do well on a higher protein and even fat ratio.
Anyways very interesting to hear the old trial and error and writing down has lead to an instinctive way of finding what is best for yourself.
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marcrph

Portugal

Drew Baye wrote:
I don't have time for details, but one comment:
Perhaps you should comment when you HAVE the time to think through you comments.

Keep workout charts, a daily journal on your physical well-being, performance, health, etc., and try eating one way for a few months, another for a few months after that, and note how you feel.

My own experience has been I look and feel better when eating more of a Zone / Paleo (according to Cordain's books) / Protein Power type diet.

Technically, there is no one "paleo" diet, since diet would vary depending on geographic location, season, and I suspect even social position would have determined which members of a group had access to certain amounts and parts of available foods.
In reality, there was NO "paleo" diet. This terminology is the latest fad diet language. In a few years, something else(newest fad) will come forth. Surely, the "paleo" diet did not originate from Arthur Jones and Dr. Darden.

That being said, our stone age / pre-agricultural ancestors did not include large amounts of refined carbohydrates in their diets, and I would be highly suspicious of claims to the contrary.

Why aren't you suspicious of Mr. Cordain? How can you be so sure about grain consumption? Grass species types (grains) surely came before homo sapiens! Only for the last 5,000 years or so has man left written records, which records have included partaking of grain products. Ditto agricultural methods. I would say you have been misled!
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Joshua Trentine

Ohio, USA

fury- wrote:
Joshua Trentine wrote:
SanSooMan wrote:
Many "mainline" HITers follow the paleo diet including: Ken Hutchins, Drew Baye, Arthur DeVancy, Dr. McGuff, me and all human beings 10,000 BC and before.


I spoke to Ken today, he told me he does NOT follow The Paleo diet, much less know what it is or care to know.

I have not spoke to the others about this specific diet book although Drew has very recently said there is NO way we could even know what the "Paleo Diet" was.

i cannot speak on this diet i have not read any book about it, doubt i will.

i will say its impossible to narrow down any one "diet" that man ate 10,000 yrs ago.

Joshua

Well it seems my first attempt at a reply didnt go thru. Josh I am interested to hear your take on raw food and raw milk, after hearing Carl say you were experiencing positive results when randy got you eating raw, on superhumanradio, i just want to know your personal experience with it.



most important thing i've ever done as it relates to my training & health

josh
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Joshua Trentine

Ohio, USA

fury- wrote:
Drew Baye wrote:
I don't have time for details, but one comment:

Keep workout charts, a daily journal on your physical well-being, performance, health, etc., and try eating one way for a few months, another for a few months after that, and note how you feel.

My own experience has been I look and feel better when eating more of a Zone / Paleo (according to Cordain's books) / Protein Power type diet.

Technically, there is no one "paleo" diet, since diet would vary depending on geographic location, season, and I suspect even social position would have determined which members of a group had access to certain amounts and parts of available foods.

That being said, our stone age / pre-agricultural ancestors did not include large amounts of refined carbohydrates in their diets, and I would be highly suspicious of claims to the contrary.

This is very interesting Drew, I am wondering if you have ever heard of Metabolic Typing? This is a very highly individualized way of eating and it is very much based on journaling your food entries and seeing how u feel to get the optimum macro ratio for your individual type and body.
And by the sounds of it you are probably a fast oxidizer, meaning you burn through carbs quickly, and would do well on a higher protein and even fat ratio.
Anyways very interesting to hear the old trial and error and writing down has lead to an instinctive way of finding what is best for yourself.



we use a lab in Texas, which does a TMA,
this helps our clients customize their nutrition programs.
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