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Nwlifter & HST: Myo-Reps, MaxStim
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jack32

Hey Ron,
Good to have you on the forum.
I know you're quite versed w/HST,Blade's Myo-reps and Dan's Max-stim protocols.
Myo-reps and Max-stim seemed to evolve from the HST template.
Thoughts about one being better than the other for hypertrophy?

What about alternating Myo-reps and Max-stim from workout to workout? Little bit of a different kick from each style?
i.e.-- more mechanical strain from Max-stim than Myo-reps?
Anything you can add would be appreciated.
Thanks.
jack

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Nwlifter

Hey Jack,

Thanks, good to be back posting!

Man to tell you the truth, after more of the newer research, most of this stuff actually became kinda fuzzy. I emailed with a researcher who was doing a studies using continous tension and high fatigue to emulate a semi occlusive effect. He was able to show it does induce marked hypertrophy.

Myo reps are all about efficiency with a lot of reps at a high activation level. Max stim is all about enough reps with a higher load. So the real comparison comes down to if we believe a higher load at a high but not maximal CNS output is best with low fatigue. Or if we believe we should use fatigue with a lesser but still decent load to get a really high activation (rate coding, etc.) level.

The one thing IMO I'll say, is Myo reps seem to burn my CNS out big time with all the super intense effort. Instead of just a single high effort rep like with HIT, you have a lot of those killer effort reps. Similar to DC's stuff (which also causes me to burn out and lose my desire to put forth effort).

Max stim doesn't cause these effects, some say they grew well with it, some said lots of strength and no growth.

So all that and my simple answer is..
I don't think anyone knows which is best, or if there are much differences in long term hypertrophy between them :)

jack32 wrote:
Hey Ron,
Good to have you on the forum.
I know you're quite versed w/HST,Blade's Myo-reps and Dan's Max-stim protocols.
Myo-reps and Max-stim seemed to evolve from the HST template.
Thoughts about one being better than the other for hypertrophy?

What about alternating Myo-reps and Max-stim from workout to workout? Little bit of a different kick from each style?
i.e.-- more mechanical strain from Max-stim than Myo-reps?
Anything you can add would be appreciated.
Thanks.
jack



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szorn

Nwlifter wrote:
Hey Jack,

Thanks, good to be back posting!

Man to tell you the truth, after more of the newer research, most of this stuff actually became kinda fuzzy. I emailed with a researcher who was doing a studies using continous tension and high fatigue to emulate a semi occlusive effect. He was able to show it does induce marked hypertrophy.

Myo reps are all about efficiency with a lot of reps at a high activation level. Max stim is all about enough reps with a higher load. So the real comparison comes down to if we believe a higher load at a high but not maximal CNS output is best with low fatigue. Or if we believe we should use fatigue with a lesser but still decent load to get a really high activation (rate coding, etc.) level.

The one thing IMO I'll say, is Myo reps seem to burn my CNS out big time with all the super intense effort. Instead of just a single high effort rep like with HIT, you have a lot of those killer effort reps. Similar to DC's stuff (which also causes me to burn out and lose my desire to put forth effort).

Max stim doesn't cause these effects, some say they grew well with it, some said lots of strength and no growth.

So all that and my simple answer is..
I don't think anyone knows which is best, or if there are much differences in long term hypertrophy between them :)




Nwlifter,

Are you familiar with 1 Rep Mass / 1 Rep Fitness by chance? It's a program offered via e-book that appears to be a mix of Max-Stim and standard multi-set training. However, during the Max-Stim style sets the guy recommends a lower rep range, in the 6-8 range.

I haven't tried Max-Stim or 1 rep Fitness as of yet but I was wondering if a lower rep Max-Stim style workout works as well as the 20 rep method promoted by Dan?

Any thoughts or experience?

Thanks,
Steve

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Nwlifter

Hey Steve,

I hadn't heard of that idea. I do see variants of it around the net though. Even in German they have a really popular and similar method called Pitt Force, check google and you tube, it's all over the place and seems to have no shortage of success stories. They also do about 20 reps.

I know Dan chose 20 based on studies showing literally that about 40 total reps showed the most hypertrophy for trained people. Then figuring that his method is pure full recruitment, 20 reps were about how many fully recruited reps the people ended up with in the studies doing the 40 total reps. (hope that came out right). I'm sure less reps could work too, we must adjust to fit our recovery.

Ron
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jack32

Hey Ron,
Good point about CNS fatigue and Myo-reps. I've alternated them w/ Max-Stim and Myo's ain't easy on my CNS.
Another question or two...
Previously, you spoke about Dan and 20 reps max-stim. You also spoke to 40 reps being a solid basebline to produce growth.

Dan eventually recommended 2x a week per bodypart owing to the intensity of max-stim.
Would someone looking to do some specialization work, lean toward 2 exercises x 20 mas-stim reps= 40 reps per session x twice a week, while maintaining 20 reps on the other exercises?
Finally, most all of my work is done on Hammer strength, where each movement begins from the stretch position.

Once in a while, I have to use an angled Smith machine.
Do you suggest beginning the Smith machine movements from the stretched position (again, all max-stim reps)or from the extended position, where I would lower the weight first, before commencing the lifting of the weight?
Thanks for your help!

jack
jack
Thanks
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Nwlifter

Hey Jack,

jack32 wrote:
Hey Ron,
Good point about CNS fatigue and Myo-reps. I've alternated them w/ Max-Stim and Myo's ain't easy on my CNS.
Another question or two...
Previously, you spoke about Dan and 20 reps max-stim. You also spoke to 40 reps being a solid basebline to produce growth.


Yes, and that's just a 'good guess' on the rep count based on some studies. But remember, the study subjects were using a normal rep-scheme so their 40 or so reps were more equivalent to 20 max stim reps, or even less, since max stim is causing each rep to be similar to the last of a normal set.

Dan eventually recommended 2x a week per bodypart owing to the intensity of max-stim.
Would someone looking to do some specialization work, lean toward 2 exercises x 20 mas-stim reps= 40 reps per session x twice a week, while maintaining 20 reps on the other exercises?


You could, if you could handle that much, but the 20 max stim reps are about equivalent to 40 normal reps in a standard set-rep setup.

Finally, most all of my work is done on Hammer strength, where each movement begins from the stretch position.

Once in a while, I have to use an angled Smith machine.
Do you suggest beginning the Smith machine movements from the stretched position (again, all max-stim reps)or from the extended position, where I would lower the weight first, before commencing the lifting of the weight?
Thanks for your help!


I myself would go for a 'lower first' anytime I could, it prepares you better for the lift. I doubt the stimulation is any different, it's just hard to begin from the bottom. I have a power tec that is a leverage machine and starts me from the bottom also, it just feels awkward to me.

cheers!
Ron

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jack32

steve,
do all the sets of 1 total a 6-8 rep range only. IOW-- i start w/6 singles, work up to 8 singles, and then increase weight?
what is estimated time "break" between singles?
do you start at 2 or 3 seconds and increase the seconds of rest as you work towards the 6th,7th and 8th reps?
speed per rep? i.e.- 1 sec. positive/2 sec. neg.?
as this resembles a fatigue management (max-stim,myo-reps,edt)program, may i assume that one works towards failure, but backs off when that last rep slows down?
finally, could you touch on the multi set training that's recommended, post singles?
thanks so much!
jack
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szorn

jack32 wrote:
steve,
do all the sets of 1 total a 6-8 rep range only. IOW-- i start w/6 singles, work up to 8 singles, and then increase weight?
what is estimated time "break" between singles?
do you start at 2 or 3 seconds and increase the seconds of rest as you work towards the 6th,7th and 8th reps?
speed per rep? i.e.- 1 sec. positive/2 sec. neg.?
as this resembles a fatigue management (max-stim,myo-reps,edt)program, may i assume that one works towards failure, but backs off when that last rep slows down?
finally, could you touch on the multi set training that's recommended, post singles?
thanks so much!
jack


Hi Jack,

Sorry I never got back to you on this. Somehow I missed it.

This program is a little different than Max-Stim. The author actually combines sets of singles with regular sets of different exercises for the same muscle in the same workout.

The author says to start with 75-85% of the 1RM and then adjust up or down as needed. Failure should be reached on the last single rep. The rest interval between each single is pretty constant at 8 seconds. However, in the "advanced" level the author recommends performing several blocks of singles for the same exercise. Example- on the Smith Machine Squat 6 singles with 8 seconds of rest between each one then do another 8 singles with 10 seconds of rest between each one.

A beginner routine for the chest might look like this-
Smith Machine Bench Press:
6 singles with 8 seconds of rest
Dumbbell Flyes: 2 standard sets of 10
Incline Dumbbell Press: 2 standard sets of 10


I haven't tried this of course but hope the description helps,
Steve
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Ben_R

Is anyone else using Max-Stim or Myo-Reps? I did the 10RM test Dan talks about in his free e-book and managed to do 40 chin ups with my 10RM with a M-Time that never exceeded 20 seconds in the later stages of the set.

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HDLou

Nwlifter wrote:
Hey Steve,

I hadn't heard of that idea. I do see variants of it around the net though. Even in German they have a really popular and similar method called Pitt Force, check google and you tube, it's all over the place and seems to have no shortage of success stories. They also do about 20 reps.

I know Dan chose 20 based on studies showing literally that about 40 total reps showed the most hypertrophy for trained people. Then figuring that his method is pure full recruitment, 20 reps were about how many fully recruited reps the people ended up with in the studies doing the 40 total reps. (hope that came out right). I'm sure less reps could work too, we must adjust to fit our recovery.

Ron


NWLifter,

Do you have a link or source for the study or studies that show the 40-60 rep range twice a week is best for hypertrophy? I've seen this stated in a few places and was interested in reading up on it.
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Nwlifter

HDLou wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
Hey Steve,

I hadn't heard of that idea. I do see variants of it around the net though. Even in German they have a really popular and similar method called Pitt Force, check google and you tube, it's all over the place and seems to have no shortage of success stories. They also do about 20 reps.

I know Dan chose 20 based on studies showing literally that about 40 total reps showed the most hypertrophy for trained people. Then figuring that his method is pure full recruitment, 20 reps were about how many fully recruited reps the people ended up with in the studies doing the 40 total reps. (hope that came out right). I'm sure less reps could work too, we must adjust to fit our recovery.

Ron

NWLifter,

Do you have a link or source for the study or studies that show the 40-60 rep range twice a week is best for hypertrophy? I've seen this stated in a few places and was interested in reading up on it.


I can get that study for you, I cannot remember the title, so gonna email a friend with a database for a brain, I know he'll remember which that was, stay tunes :)

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Ryo

Switzerland

I think there are at least 3 ways to look at stimulation:

1) An optimum level of Fatigue/Inroad (HIT) or Energy Depletion, or even Force Output. If this is the case then it's possible to have an optimum stimulation with only 1 set to failure or short to failure or even 1 heavy single. The stimulation is a combination of Load*Volume*Density and there isn't much if any difference between 1*8*8-9RM and 4*5*6-7RM or 3*1*95-100% as long as the FINAL level of fatigue, energy depletion or force output is the same.

2) Workload: Load*Volume. That's the most common way to look at stimulation. More sets are considered better because it increases the Workload, 5*5 is superior to 1*5 (with the same load). The theory would valorize 5*5*6RM with 5min between sets over 5*5*8RM with 1min between sets because it doesn?t take into account the Density. Density (fatigue management) increases effort (muscle activation) and it?s why a lower Workload done at a higher density can be equal or superior to higher workload at a lower density. Plus 15 repetitions at 40% provide a higher Workload than a set of 5 at 85% so in my opinion Workload is not a good way to look at stimulation.

3) Qualitative Workload: High Activation Muscular Contractions * Volume. It could explain why a higher number of sets can provide a higher stimulus than single set. With more sets there are more Qualitative Reps. But if all the sets are carried to the point of failure, the deep fatigue might inhibit the activation of the big motor units and thus not increase the stimulus (maybe it could explain the studies where 1 set is as effective as multiple sets) . Probably that the best way to train would be Multiple Singles or sets of low reps with either very heavy loads or slightly lighter loads at a higher Density. Both way would make each repetition very hard (high level of activation) and thus high quality reps. I think we must be cautious to not do multiple maximum effort singles/repetitions because it would lead to a too deep fatigue, burning the nervous system and inhibit the stimulus. Instead the goal would be to have a high number of hard reps (like the 9th rep of a 10RM, or 4th rep of a 5RM or an Heavy Single at 90%+). Powerlifters have done multiple singles / sets of low reps for a long time and Max-Stim, Pitt-Force, Myo Reps, DC training are another way to do it which is more based on high density than near maximum loads.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

jack32 wrote:
Hey Ron,
Good to have you on the forum.
I know you're quite versed w/HST,Blade's Myo-reps and Dan's Max-stim protocols.
Myo-reps and Max-stim seemed to evolve from the HST template.
Thoughts about one being better than the other for hypertrophy?

What about alternating Myo-reps and Max-stim from workout to workout? Little bit of a different kick from each style?
i.e.-- more mechanical strain from Max-stim than Myo-reps?
Anything you can add would be appreciated.
Thanks.
jack



==Scott==
Since this is a forum of more than just you and Ron, for us out of the loop it would be nice to say from the beginning just what the heck MYO-reps, MAX-stim's and Blade's are?? Let me guess, Blades are reps done the Wesley Snipes way??
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Ben_R

entsminger wrote:
...just what the heck MYO-reps, MAX-stim...??


Weight-training systems designed to manage fatigue and maximise load.

Example of set conducted in the Max-Stim manner. Pick 10RM for a given exercise. Conduct 20 reps one at a time with a rest between each rep with the weight taken out of your hands/off your body. Rest for 5-30 seconds between reps. Perform reps with an explosive but controlled concentric and slower controlled eccentric.

Example of a set conducted in the Myo-Rep mannner. Pick 10RM for a given exercise. Perform 9 continuous reps then rest for 20 seconds. This is called the activation set. Perform 3 additional reps, then again rest for 20 seconds. Continue until you can no longer perform 3 continuous reps.
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