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Ever Get Ripped WIth High Carb Diet?
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coach-jeff

Louisiana, USA

LC-Paleo seems to be the defacto fat loss diet for BB these days. But I'm curious if any of you (Competing BB in particular) have had success getting ripped on HIGH carb diet - without resorting to starvation levels of calorie intake?
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sgb2112

http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=ArWZM0P-5p0

I doubt B-Rock or any of the bar-barians are shopping at whole foods for bison. And of all the bodybuilding clips on Youtube showing how the pro's eat, lets just say they are not carb phobic in the least. Cutler & Coleman must eat friggin 1000 grams a day.

Ever watch HBO 24/7..Floyd Mayweather, Pacman and Miguel Cotto get ripped eating lots of carbs.

The pushers of the paleo/low carb lifestyle are themselves anything but ripped..Fred Hahn & Eades are not close to being as lean as high carbers Clarence Bass and Richard Winnet.
.
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HamsFitness

coachjeff wrote:
LC-Paleo seems to be the defacto fat loss diet for BB these days. But I'm curious if any of you (Competing BB in particular) have had success getting ripped on HIGH carb diet - without resorting to starvation levels of calorie intake?


Not one bit, apart from the stag weekend I went on a few years back when all we consumed was beer - I looked a lot leaner after that weekend :)

The default that I always fall to is to reduce carbs to lose fat. It's the only way I can control my hunger.

Richard
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dcshores

California, USA

Used to compete in the early 90's. Never got ripped on carbs.

David
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HrothgarRannulfr

Ohio, USA

No. I've never gotten ripped with a high carb diet. Always experienced the best results with a high protein, low carb diet.
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spud

I think Andrew Shortt eats a fair few carbs and manages to get ripped.

But then again I don't know where Andrew would put himself on the carb spectrum and what kinds of carbs he consumes.
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st3

coachjeff wrote:
LC-Paleo seems to be the defacto fat loss diet for BB these days. But I'm curious if any of you (Competing BB in particular) have had success getting ripped on HIGH carb diet - without resorting to starvation levels of calorie intake?


Competed in the late 80's and early 90's and got shredded on a high carb diet just reduced caloric intake as needed. Got the diet from Lance Dreher. Here's the plan as I remember:
3/4 cup old fashioned oatmeal
2 eggs
2 fruit

1 8 oz chicken breast
1 8 oz baked potato

1 whole wheat pancake w honey

1 8 oz chicken breast
1 8 oz baked potato
6 oz vegies
1 tblspn safflour oil

2 grapefruit
6 rice cakes

Cut calories by reducing portions as needed. Insulin sensitivity is important in carb manipulation.


Steve

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Raider22

Ohio, USA

I did, when I was 19. I think you can get fairly lean with a basic diet. The big problem is consistency. People are not consistent and compliant with their programs. When you get to the point where you are lean, you can slip up now and then. When you need to get lean and you slip up now and then, you never get anywhere.
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coach-jeff

Louisiana, USA

Regarding "better appetite suppression" on LC diet - I believe that is the main benefit of LC diet for many. Simply allows many to reduce calories without severe hunger.

However, I believe similar appetite suppression can be had on a high carb diet IF that high carb diet is composed of unrefined, slowly digesting carbs only.

I spent about 10 years as a rather militant low-carber. I could go on and on about how LC diets lower the "fat storage hormone" insulin, raise growth hormone, etc. etc.

But I have more or less rejected my low-carb ways. Though I remain open to the idea that it may be the best route for getting into single digit bodyfat territory. But I'm not even certain of that.

I believe most of the studies comparing LC diets to high carb diets, which showed better results for LC, suffer from the same fatal flaw as the studies purporting to show the supposed superiority of vegan diets. In both cases they are comparing the test diet to the standard American diet of processed crap.

I mean come on, the typical American diet is so freaking bad, that most ANY crazy diet will deliver better results.

But what about a study that compared an LC diet to a high-carb diet composed of nothing but whole foods? That would be a LOT different than all these lame studies comparing LC diet to a diet composed of fruit loops, white bread and other junk carbs.

I'm surprised more BB haven't been open to trying Clarence Bass's high carb approach (Though perhaps with more protein than Clarence's "flexetarian" diet.) to contest prep. After all, the man's name is synonymous with the word RIPPED. And he eats tons of carbs, but doesn't eat junk carbs.

Here's a few testimonials from his site from folks who got ripped on high carbs.

"Physique Competitor Reports Results With and Without Carbs" (Scroll down the page a bit to see it.)

http://www.cbass.com/...ess_stories.htm


"All-Around School-Girl Athlete, Powerlifting Champion - Now Canadian Physique Model of the Year"

http://www.cbass.com/...ss_stories9.htm

"Contest Condition in Five Weeks"
(Same link as above, but at bottom of page)

I have experimented very heavily with LC diets. I agree they do a decent job of suppressing appetite. And I am able to lose fat on an LC diet if I COUNT CALORIES.

But if I "eat all I want" of LC foods, I actually GAIN weight very easily.

In fact, I recently gained about 10 pounds on an ad-libitum LC diet. That's because I can easily consume too many calories when allowed to eat all I want of tasty meats.

I've personally only gotten totally ripped once in my life. (Though I've always been reasonably lean) I did it on a 2000 calorie per diet composed of high-carb/high-protein shakes drunk 4 times per day - and two rice and tuna meals per day. It was a low-fat, high carb diet.

But I did starve on that diet because I was eating nothing but heavily processed carbs. So getting ripped that way came at the price of 12 weeks of suffering.

I am currently working toward getting ripped on a high carb diet composed of almost noting but whole foods. Planning to lose the fat VERY SLOWLY this time. I'm not 110% certain I can get ripped this way, (Without resorting to starvation) but I'm going to try it.

So it's very encouraging to hear of others who've managed to get ripped on high percentage carb intake.
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HDLou

Yates and Labrada did. Both used 30% protein- 55% carbs-15% fat.
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HDLou

Yates and Labrada did. Both used 30% protein- 55% carbs-15% fat.
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coach-jeff

Louisiana, USA

HDLou wrote:
Yates and Labrada did. Both used 30% protein- 55% carbs-15% fat.


Interesting. I didn't know that about either of them.



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SanDiego

The leanest I have ever been was by cutting out refined carbohydrates (bread, pasta, etc), much like Dr. McGuff promotes:

http://www.youtube.com/...player_embedded

I find less success on a high carb, restricted calorie approach.
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markh

When preparing for contests in 2008 my carbs never went below 250 grams a day and my average calorie intake began at around 2700 and eventually rose to 2850 in the later part of the year.

Mark H
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coach-jeff

Louisiana, USA

SanDiego wrote:
The leanest I have ever been was by cutting out refined carbohydrates (bread, pasta, etc), much like Dr. McGuff promotes:

http://www.youtube.com/...player_embedded

I find less success on a high carb, restricted calorie approach.



---------------------------------------

Unless I'm mistaken, McGuff endorses a paleo diet, which goes way beyond mere restriction of refined carbs, and also greatly restricts even unrefined carbs such as oatmeal, beans, sprouted grain breads, etc.

I used to buy into the paleo-diet, but have come to see some major flaws in it. Both in terms of it's theoretical underpinnings, as well as the fact that there are LOTS of very healthy people who eat LOTS of "non-paleo" carbs.

But I really don't want to start a paleo debate. Just interested in hearing about folks getting ripped on high percentage carb diets.

Which according to many low-carb and paleo gurus should be impossible since "carbs drive insulin, drives fat storage." That is the mantra of the low-carb movement. And it sounds real plausible, but REAL WORLD results easily refute that overly simplistic notion.

Oh yeah, and there's also the fact that your body can store fat very nicely without insulin. (Google acylation stimulation protein, ASP if you doubt this.) This is why you WILL gain fat on even a very low carb diet, if you EAT TOO MANY CALORIES.

I've logged hundreds of hours over the past decade on low-carb forums, and can tell you that they are mostly populated by fat people who can't understand why they're NOT losing weight anymore, eating "all the meat, cheese and eggs they want."

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coach-jeff

Louisiana, USA

Here's a couple of good quote from Lyle McDonald on why insulin has gotten a bum-rap as the "fat storage hormone", (He thinks Gary Taubes is an idiot.) and how ASP promotes fat storage.

Lyle is sometime mistaken as an unequivocal advocate of low-carb diets because he wrote an entire book on ketogenic diets. But that is not his position at all. He, like me, feels the whole low-carb deal has gotten out of control, and is making false claims.

Anyway, here's those quotes.

-------------------------------------

But insulin also is involved in fat storage which is where it gets its bad characterization. Insulin activates an enzyme called lipoprotein lipase which is involved in breaking fatty acids off of chylomicrons for storage. However, this isn?t the only important step in fat storage.
--------------------------------------
Contrary to popular belief (espoused by people still reading literature from the 1970?s), insulin is neither the only nor single most important hormone involved in fat storage. Rather, a little compound called acylation stimulation protein (ASP) has been described as the most potent stimulator of fat storage in the fat cell.
---------------------------------------
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SanDiego

Hi Coachjeff,

I can only speak to what works for me. An abundance of starchy carbs and processed foods leaves me storing more bodyfat than I want. Natural proteins and fats, rounded off with as much fruit and vegetables as I can cram down, keeps my body running lean, and my energy at an even level.

I don't pay a lot of attention to the labeling that goes on with diets (that is, whether I am following a Paleo diet, or a low-carb diet, etc). I'm more interested in what has produced results (again, for me), rather than why it works.
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coach-jeff

Louisiana, USA

Hey Diego, you know your body better than me. And it has been shown that people who are insulin resistant tend to do better on lowish carb intakes. So perhaps you are at least mildly insulin resistant.

So I'm not against low-carb diets by any stretch. Just don't like some of the false claims made by some LC advocates.

I also think type-1 diabetics will do better on a Dr. Bernstein style low carb diet than one high in carbs. I currently train two type-1 diabetics and have tried very hard to steer them to Dr. Bernsteins website. Though they both seem to want to keep eating carbs, so my advice is falling on deaf ears.

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MDieguez

My feelings echo San Diego. No labels on diets. I feel better and am very lean when most of my food intake is lean meats, fish, eggs, veggies.and some fruits.
Mike
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Crotalus

coachjeff wrote:
This is why you WILL gain fat on even a very low carb diet, if you EAT TOO MANY CALORIES.


From a past high-carb guy ; I find that one of the best things about a 'Paleo diet' or what ever you want to call it is taking in too many calories is hard to do for me since I'm never hungry on it. There are plenty of times when I have to remind myself I've only eaten breakfast that day and to eat something.

On a high carb diet with calories restricted enough to see fat loss, I was hungry all the time and meals were so small they resembled a fashion models. I was through eating before I realized I ate something.
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southbeach

Crotalus wrote:
coachjeff wrote:
This is why you WILL gain fat on even a very low carb diet, if you EAT TOO MANY CALORIES.


From a past high-carb guy ; I find that one of the best things about a 'Paleo diet' or what ever you want to call it is taking in too many calories is hard to do for me since I'm never hungry on it. There are plenty of times when I have to remind myself I've only eaten breakfast that day and to eat something.

On a high carb diet with calories restricted enough to see fat loss, I was hungry all the time and meals were so small they resembled a fashion models. I was through eating before I realized I ate something.


Possibly this is more of a personal preference issue leading to quicker satiation?

IOW, your palate prefers meat so eating meat satisfies you. But palate is mostly a LEARNED response developed over many many years from childhood. And as such can be unlearned.

You can teach your palate to eat healthier plant-based diet, i know this because I DID. Now, I PREFER vegetables in fact most meat makes my physically ill just smelling it! :|

It can be done!

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fbcoach

I've done both with success. There are pros and cons for each. Ihave some of my old competition pics on BB.com under (fbcoach). In these pics I was on a high carb diet. I was easily the most ripped of any competitor. Here's the diet:

4 days 2000 cals/day
-200gms protein
-the rest of my calories were from carb sources with whatever fat was in them; I didn't count

Every 5th day I went up to 3500 cals/day. 4 weks out, I had depleted almost all subcutaneous fat. I then went to 3500 cals every 4th day..then every 3rd day..and so forth until I was 1 week out. At this point, I used my own version of carb and sodium depletion/compensation.
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southbeach

Point in case. Palate is a learned response, and the addiction is in the brain.

Could that slice of chocolate cake, that juicy cheeseburger or those crispy onion rings be just as addictive as heroin or cocaine? A new study suggests that the answer is "yes."

http://www.nydailynews.com/...aine_study.html
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Danabolism

markh wrote:
When preparing for contests in 2008 my carbs never went below 250 grams a day and my average calorie intake began at around 2700 and eventually rose to 2850 in the later part of the year.

Mark H


I'm with you Mark. I've tried to get ready for 2 contests on low carb, and ended up with a very flat appearance and unable to refill glycogen appropriately. I also had a depressed metabolic rate, and it took me a while before getting back to normal.
Case in point, for the last contest I did in November '09, I really lost alot of hard-earned size and condition, because I over-dieted and went too long on low carbs... I chalk it up as a very hard lesson learned.
In 2008, I also prepared for a contest, but with very high carbs and low protein, minimal fats... got ready in almost half the amount of time with cardio only in the final 6 weeks... Carbs kept my strength high, muscles full and energy levels. I will never, ever do low-carb anything again.

I really wanted to see if low carbs would take my physique to a lower bodyfat, but I think the major error on my part was going too low on overall calories and doing too much cardio, due to the metabolic slowdown I encountered 3 months in. Not only was losing bodyfat impossible, but muscle fell off quickly, especially near the end. I was constantly "cold", my body temperature was not high and I always had cold hands... Not good at all...

Also, if you look at this years Mr Olympia, Branch Warren looked much improved, and he changed his diet to include up to 1000grams/carbs per day, even toward the end of his prep. Carbs are definitely the way to go, in my opinion. Eating the right kind at the correct time also makes a world of difference. Even if you eat a large amount of carbs, you will do well if they are fibrous, starchy and relatively low in the glycemic index, you'll feel great and have tons of strength and energy.

I sometimes wish it were more complicated, because these are what people have known and studied for years now. I feel that you can get ripped either way, but your overall metabolism and intestinal health is much better when you keep carbs in your diet...


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coach-jeff

Louisiana, USA

Danabolism wrote:
markh wrote:
When preparing for contests in 2008 my carbs never went below 250 grams a day and my average calorie intake began at around 2700 and eventually rose to 2850 in the later part of the year.

Mark H

I'm with you Mark. I've tried to get ready for 2 contests on low carb, and ended up with a very flat appearance and unable to refill glycogen appropriately. I also had a depressed metabolic rate, and it took me a while before getting back to normal.
Case in point, for the last contest I did in November '09, I really lost alot of hard-earned size and condition, because I over-dieted and went too long on low carbs... I chalk it up as a very hard lesson learned.
In 2008, I also prepared for a contest, but with very high carbs and low protein, minimal fats... got ready in almost half the amount of time with cardio only in the final 6 weeks... Carbs kept my strength high, muscles full and energy levels. I will never, ever do low-carb anything again.

I really wanted to see if low carbs would take my physique to a lower bodyfat, but I think the major error on my part was going too low on overall calories and doing too much cardio, due to the metabolic slowdown I encountered 3 months in. Not only was losing bodyfat impossible, but muscle fell off quickly, especially near the end. I was constantly "cold", my body temperature was not high and I always had cold hands... Not good at all...

Also, if you look at this years Mr Olympia, Branch Warren looked much improved, and he changed his diet to include up to 1000grams/carbs per day, even toward the end of his prep. Carbs are definitely the way to go, in my opinion. Eating the right kind at the correct time also makes a world of difference. Even if you eat a large amount of carbs, you will do well if they are fibrous, starchy and relatively low in the glycemic index, you'll feel great and have tons of strength and energy.

I sometimes wish it were more complicated, because these are what people have known and studied for years now. I feel that you can get ripped either way, but your overall metabolism and intestinal health is much better when you keep carbs in your diet...




Now that's what I'm talking about! Real bodybuiders getting BETTER results getting contest-ready WITH carbs, than without.

Your depressed thyroid function is actually quite common amongst low-carbers. Of course, it's well known that taking calories too low will, in itself, down-regulate production of thyroid and leptin. But there is strong evidence to suggest that severe carbohydrate restriction also results in one's thyroid and leptin taking a nosedive - EVEN IF CALORIE INTAKE IS ADEQUATE.

I used to believe that carbs were uniquely fattening due to their stimulation of insulin, but I now beleive that transient spikes in insulin after a meal are more-or-less harmless for most people. Besides, some protein foods spike insulin every bit as much as carbs.

The real problem is chronic insulin resistance, which is caused by ONE specific carbohydrate called fructose.

Glucose, as found in natural starches, is harmless for the vast majority of us. But excess fructose is quite lipogenic, and in large, chronic doses (Which is very common in our sugar-laden culture) causes insulin resistance in the liver and in skeletal muscle.

However, fat cells will continue to stay insulin sensitive, and so a large part of what you eat will be referentially partitioned into fat cells.

If one does do a paleo diet, I would suggest you ignore Cordain's advice to eat lots of fruit. Modern, hybrid fruits contain loads of fructose. Though a piece or two a day certainly won't hurt.

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