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sirloin

Interesting, was reading a paper recently that showed they produce greater lat activation than BB or DB rows, with of course much less pressure on the low back, with i guess is a good thing when deadlifting, squatting etc.

Cheers
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PTDaniel

Ray200 wrote:
Turpin wrote:
Cheers Ray . Yes the front squat is better performed for lower rep schemes due to other non-targeted musculature ( upper back ) giving out before the thighs , hence the low rep BUT high sets to create a cumulative fatigue effect . Thereafter the hack slide really fatigues .

T.

Yes, I've always struggled with the squat--and as my formative influences were JC Hise and Dr Ken, you can see how that would affect my progress--so the front squat seemed the best alternative. As such, I'm looking at technique 'tweaks' I can use to make it better. Always studying others who do this exercise so thanks for posting the video.
Also, are you not using your hip squat device? Looked very interesting, to my layman's eyes anyway. Had the same trouble you had with belt squats: great exercise but a pain to set up. Just looking for alternatives.

Best,
Ray


Have you tried a Zercher Squat or a Goblet Squat? Both of these squats load the weight in front of your body. For the Zercher squat I take the weight out of the uprights of a squat rack instead of deadlifting it off of the floor. For the Goblet squat I take the dumbbell with the weighted ends vertical on top of a plyo box.

https://www.youtube.com/...h?v=vpy4ADmlo1E

https://www.youtube.com/...h?v=MeIiIdhvXT4
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StuKE

Thanks for the update, great to see you are still doing really well. Can you remind me how you fit this into three days a week - is it simply (eg) workout 1 Mon, 2 Tues, 3 Wed, 4 Mon etc?
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Ray200

PTDaniel wrote:
Ray200 wrote:
Turpin wrote:
Cheers Ray . Yes the front squat is better performed for lower rep schemes due to other non-targeted musculature ( upper back ) giving out before the thighs , hence the low rep BUT high sets to create a cumulative fatigue effect . Thereafter the hack slide really fatigues .

T.

Yes, I've always struggled with the squat--and as my formative influences were JC Hise and Dr Ken, you can see how that would affect my progress--so the front squat seemed the best alternative. As such, I'm looking at technique 'tweaks' I can use to make it better. Always studying others who do this exercise so thanks for posting the video.
Also, are you not using your hip squat device? Looked very interesting, to my layman's eyes anyway. Had the same trouble you had with belt squats: great exercise but a pain to set up. Just looking for alternatives.

Best,
Ray


Have you tried a Zercher Squat or a Goblet Squat? Both of these squats load the weight in front of your body. For the Zercher squat I take the weight out of the uprights of a squat rack instead of deadlifting it off of the floor. For the Goblet squat I take the dumbbell with the weighted ends vertical on top of a plyo box.

https://www.youtube.com/...h?v=vpy4ADmlo1E

https://www.youtube.com/...h?v=MeIiIdhvXT4


Thanks for the reply. I've been experimenting with low-bar squats for the past month. A first for me! Felt great ... until I developed golfer's elbow last week. I think I have to admit defeat with my squat battle. That's why I'd love to have something like Turpin's device for hip-belt squats. No messing around.
Incidentally, after doing my hip-belt squats (returned to them after my low-bar experiment) I've introduced goblet squats as a "finisher". Not easy to do when using thin cast iron plates that have a considerable diameter. A very good exercise, vastly underrated. Zercher's, not sure. Never really tried them. I suppose the discomfort in the biceps might be a limiting factor when the weight gets heavy but I could be wrong. Have you found it to be a good mass builder?

Best,
Ray
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Turpin

sirloin wrote:
Interesting, was reading a paper recently that showed they produce greater lat activation than BB or DB rows, with of course much less pressure on the low back, with i guess is a good thing when deadlifting, squatting etc.

Cheers


They are a terrific exercise and really activate the core and supporting musculature too.

T.


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Turpin

StuKE wrote:
Thanks for the update, great to see you are still doing really well. Can you remind me how you fit this into three days a week - is it simply (eg) workout 1 Mon, 2 Tues, 3 Wed, 4 Mon etc?


Sun: lower body Tues: upper Thurs: Lower Sun: Upper Tues : Lower etc

T.
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PTDaniel

I like the feeling of the bar grinding into the crook of my elbow. I usually abut a couple of squat pads to cover the center of the bar for clients. Keep the velcro ends up so you can make sure they are centered on the bar. Sometimes I take a thin yoga mat and tightly wind it around the center of the bar as a pad also. I'm sure the pads for glute bridges would work.

I like the Zercher best of all the squats I perform. It has the leas amount of back strain. If you go heavy and low, you will probably feel your abs engage. I like the front squat with a clean grip. When you cross your arms for a front squat, you immediately round your thoracic vertebrae and I have a bit of a thoracic kyphosis so I don't want to exaggerate it. I rarely back squat. Squats are the mainstay of my leg program.
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Ray200

PTDaniel wrote:
I like the feeling of the bar grinding into the crook of my elbow. I usually abut a couple of squat pads to cover the center of the bar for clients. Keep the velcro ends up so you can make sure they are centered on the bar. Sometimes I take a thin yoga mat and tightly wind it around the center of the bar as a pad also. I'm sure the pads for glute bridges would work.

I like the Zercher best of all the squats I perform. It has the leas amount of back strain. If you go heavy and low, you will probably feel your abs engage. I like the front squat with a clean grip. When you cross your arms for a front squat, you immediately round your thoracic vertebrae and I have a bit of a thoracic kyphosis so I don't want to exaggerate it. I rarely back squat. Squats are the mainstay of my leg program.


A belated thanks for the info. Zerchers are something I remain unsure about. Never tried them. Currently doing hip-belt- and goblet squats. Great combo.
Problem I had with front squats is that my torso would fatigue long before my legs, hence my return to belt squatting. Standard back squats irritate either a) my back b) my knees c) back and knees. 15 years of back squat failure and I still feel I must squat. A habit I need to get out of.
Turpin's thread so I won't elaborate, but I complete my hbs cycle in 2 weeks time. Will introduce Zerchers as an assistance exercise and see how they feel. If you're not powerlifting, do you need to squat? Can you hit genetic max. without them? Unsure as my legs expand with just sumo deadlifts, but with a 295kg deadlift and a 120kg back squat, something ain't right.

Best,
Ray
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Turpin

Ray200 wrote:
If you're not powerlifting, do you need to squat? Can you hit genetic max. without them?

Best,
Ray


I feel my legs were at their best a couple of years ago Ray and back then I was only performing Gironda Sissy squats , light heels raised barbell hacks and hyper ext. The quad work was with very little weight at all but focusing on feel / pump and cumulative fatigue.
So in answer to your question , NO .. I don't feel you have to squat per se` to realise leg development , you simply need to create the desired stimulus.

T.
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Ray200

Turpin wrote:
Ray200 wrote:
If you're not powerlifting, do you need to squat? Can you hit genetic max. without them?

Best,
Ray

I feel my legs were at their best a couple of years ago Ray and back then I was only performing Gironda Sissy squats , light heels raised barbell hacks and hyper ext. The quad work was with very little weight at all but focusing on feel / pump and cumulative fatigue.
So in answer to your question , NO .. I don't feel you have to squat per se` to realise leg development , you simply need to create the desired stimulus.

T.


Turpin wrote:
Ray200 wrote:
If you're not powerlifting, do you need to squat? Can you hit genetic max. without them?

Best,
Ray

I feel my legs were at their best a couple of years ago Ray and back then I was only performing Gironda Sissy squats , light heels raised barbell hacks and hyper ext. The quad work was with very little weight at all but focusing on feel / pump and cumulative fatigue.
So in answer to your question , NO .. I don't feel you have to squat per se` to realise leg development , you simply need to create the desired stimulus.

T.


Hi Turpin,
Thanks for the comment. Luckily my legs respond well to any stimulus. The problem is the "aura" that the squat has. Unlike you I don't have a track record as a powerlifter, although I've trained with many over the years. This led to the "MUST squat" mindset. Only now, at 40, have I realised that it's not for me. Injuries galore, albeit none serious, but I keep thinking, "If I did the traditional back squat, would I be even bigger?" Never satisfied.
I'm amazed though at the development you got from Gironda Sissy Squats. I was wondering about your training over the last few months and how you seemed to be doing Front Squats, Hacks, Sissy Squats, Hip-belt Squats and Roman Chair Squats, but I haven't seen you do the back Squat for a while. Are the benefits not worth the potential risk? I seem to recall you injured your back badly a few years ago--was this Squat induced?

Best,
R
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PTDaniel

Zercher squats are pretty easy on the lower back. The weight is held lower than conventional front squats and goblet squats. This shortens the moment arm in relation to your back, so the torque acting on your lower back is much lower. Also front squats (unless you use a clean grip) and goblet squats cause a bit of rounding at the thoracic vertebrae since your arms are crossing in the front which can cause additional spinal stress.
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Turpin

Ray200 wrote:
Hi Turpin,
Thanks for the comment. Luckily my legs respond well to any stimulus. The problem is the "aura" that the squat has. Unlike you I don't have a track record as a powerlifter, although I've trained with many over the years. This led to the "MUST squat" mindset. Only now, at 40, have I realised that it's not for me. Injuries galore, albeit none serious, but I keep thinking, "If I did the traditional back squat, would I be even bigger?" Never satisfied.
I'm amazed though at the development you got from Gironda Sissy Squats. I was wondering about your training over the last few months and how you seemed to be doing Front Squats, Hacks, Sissy Squats, Hip-belt Squats and Roman Chair Squats, but I haven't seen you do the back Squat for a while. Are the benefits not worth the potential risk? I seem to recall you injured your back badly a few years ago--was this Squat induced?

Best,
R


I haven't performed a traditional back squat for years Ray , no need. I injured my back in a freak accident in powerlifting competition whilst doing a max squat and since then Ive relied on other method to create the right stimulus as heavy back squats do tend to aggravate ( not so the deadlift ).
Knowing that I will never compete at a full power meet( all 3 lifts ) again I simply do as I please. I enjoy heavy lifting and can get up to decent poundage in the front squat , this is also a great exercise for postural correction. AND I can create the same stimulus the back squat provides devoid of the negative aspects by using the BELT SQUAT .... both these exercises have aided my deadlift too.
I'm not much into physique as much as I am strength these days , but if I was I would have no qualms in dropping everything in favour of Gironda sissy squat to achieve the desired look.

T.

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Ray200

PTDaniel wrote:
Zercher squats are pretty easy on the lower back. The weight is held lower than conventional front squats and goblet squats. This shortens the moment arm in relation to your back, so the torque acting on your lower back is much lower. Also front squats (unless you use a clean grip) and goblet squats cause a bit of rounding at the thoracic vertebrae since your arms are crossing in the front which can cause additional spinal stress.


I think Zercher Squats may be the only variation I've not tried. A cycle or two (3-6 weeks) is worth a try, just to see how they feel. Using them in tandem with, say, Bulgarian Split Squats might be a challenge.

Best,
Ray
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Ray200

Turpin wrote:
Ray200 wrote:
Hi Turpin,
Thanks for the comment. Luckily my legs respond well to any stimulus. The problem is the "aura" that the squat has. Unlike you I don't have a track record as a powerlifter, although I've trained with many over the years. This led to the "MUST squat" mindset. Only now, at 40, have I realised that it's not for me. Injuries galore, albeit none serious, but I keep thinking, "If I did the traditional back squat, would I be even bigger?" Never satisfied.
I'm amazed though at the development you got from Gironda Sissy Squats. I was wondering about your training over the last few months and how you seemed to be doing Front Squats, Hacks, Sissy Squats, Hip-belt Squats and Roman Chair Squats, but I haven't seen you do the back Squat for a while. Are the benefits not worth the potential risk? I seem to recall you injured your back badly a few years ago--was this Squat induced?

Best,
R

I haven't performed a traditional back squat for years Ray , no need. I injured my back in a freak accident in powerlifting competition whilst doing a max squat and since then Ive relied on other method to create the right stimulus as heavy back squats do tend to aggravate ( not so the deadlift ).
Knowing that I will never compete at a full power meet( all 3 lifts ) again I simply do as I please. I enjoy heavy lifting and can get up to decent poundage in the front squat , this is also a great exercise for postural correction. AND I can create the same stimulus the back squat provides devoid of the negative aspects by using the BELT SQUAT .... both these exercises have aided my deadlift too.
I'm not much into physique as much as I am strength these days , but if I was I would have no qualms in dropping everything in favour of Gironda sissy squat to achieve the desired look.

T.



Ah, it was at a competition you injured your back? Small mercies, at least it was at a public event that allowed you to get medical assistance quickly.
I've been looking at Rippetoe's squat style: low bar, push at the hip, more horizontal back angle than the norm, and it does seem to make sense, but too big a risk now. Injury seems to be there every time I put a barbell on my traps. As I wrote before, the very first book I bought on weight training was Strossen's Super Squats. Its impact seems to have remained with me, despite having the world's worst back squat technique.
Despite the above, when I read T-Nation I see Ben Bruno (one of the contributors and a phenomenally strong trainer) no longer back squats either. His exercise of choice is the Bulgarian Split Squat. For those of us with squat issues, at least there are options!

Best,
R
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sirloin

Ray200 wrote:
PTDaniel wrote:
Zercher squats are pretty easy on the lower back. The weight is held lower than conventional front squats and goblet squats. This shortens the moment arm in relation to your back, so the torque acting on your lower back is much lower. Also front squats (unless you use a clean grip) and goblet squats cause a bit of rounding at the thoracic vertebrae since your arms are crossing in the front which can cause additional spinal stress.

I think Zercher Squats may be the only variation I've not tried. A cycle or two (3-6 weeks) is worth a try, just to see how they feel. Using them in tandem with, say, Bulgarian Split Squats might be a challenge.

Best,
Ray


Ill eat my words that ive said in the past about squat variations, i really like the zercher squat now, doesnt annoy my back neither, in combination with Goblets and leverage machine hack squats.

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Turpin

Been employing some high rep ( 20-25 reps ) leg extensions prior to my HEAVY front squat sessions . They really lubricate the knees and activate the quads for the work to come.

Video : https://www.youtube.com/...eature=youtu.be

T.
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HeavyHitter32

Ray200 wrote:
Turpin wrote:
Ray200 wrote:
Hi Turpin,
Thanks for the comment. Luckily my legs respond well to any stimulus. The problem is the "aura" that the squat has. Unlike you I don't have a track record as a powerlifter, although I've trained with many over the years. This led to the "MUST squat" mindset. Only now, at 40, have I realised that it's not for me. Injuries galore, albeit none serious, but I keep thinking, "If I did the traditional back squat, would I be even bigger?" Never satisfied.
I'm amazed though at the development you got from Gironda Sissy Squats. I was wondering about your training over the last few months and how you seemed to be doing Front Squats, Hacks, Sissy Squats, Hip-belt Squats and Roman Chair Squats, but I haven't seen you do the back Squat for a while. Are the benefits not worth the potential risk? I seem to recall you injured your back badly a few years ago--was this Squat induced?

Best,
R

I haven't performed a traditional back squat for years Ray , no need. I injured my back in a freak accident in powerlifting competition whilst doing a max squat and since then Ive relied on other method to create the right stimulus as heavy back squats do tend to aggravate ( not so the deadlift ).
Knowing that I will never compete at a full power meet( all 3 lifts ) again I simply do as I please. I enjoy heavy lifting and can get up to decent poundage in the front squat , this is also a great exercise for postural correction. AND I can create the same stimulus the back squat provides devoid of the negative aspects by using the BELT SQUAT .... both these exercises have aided my deadlift too.
I'm not much into physique as much as I am strength these days , but if I was I would have no qualms in dropping everything in favour of Gironda sissy squat to achieve the desired look.

T.



Ah, it was at a competition you injured your back? Small mercies, at least it was at a public event that allowed you to get medical assistance quickly.
I've been looking at Rippetoe's squat style: low bar, push at the hip, more horizontal back angle than the norm, and it does seem to make sense, but too big a risk now. Injury seems to be there every time I put a barbell on my traps. As I wrote before, the very first book I bought on weight training was Strossen's Super Squats. Its impact seems to have remained with me, despite having the world's worst back squat technique.
Despite the above, when I read T-Nation I see Ben Bruno (one of the contributors and a phenomenally strong trainer) no longer back squats either. His exercise of choice is the Bulgarian Split Squat. For those of us with squat issues, at least there are options!

Best,
R


Having a decent amount of weight on your shoulders compressing on your spine is just a bad idea. It seems like it causes almost everyone issues over time. It makes a lot more sense to look for other ways to squat. Right now I use the Powertec leverage squat with one leg at a time...allows to use very little weight and really does the job.
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Turpin

Into the last week of my 12 week training cycle and all my workouts have been on track. I'm using a training cycle and poundages that I have used x 2 previously but moving them with an ease of effort versus past cycles ( that to me is true adaptation ) and I have gained a few pounds in bodymass over this cycle than previous.
After this training block is over I intend to re-evaluate my goals and adapt my training and focus accordingly.

T.
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sirloin

Turpin wrote:
Into the last week of my 12 week training cycle and all my workouts have been on track. I'm using a training cycle and poundages that I have used x 2 previously but moving them with an ease of effort versus past cycles ( that to me is true adaptation ) and I have gained a few pounds in bodymass over this cycle than previous.
After this training block is over I intend to re-evaluate my goals and adapt my training and focus accordingly.

T.


No wonder your smiling with dem Boyer Coe peaks;)
Great stuff!!
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Turpin

sirloin wrote:

T.

No wonder your smiling with dem Boyer Coe peaks;)
Great stuff!!



Ha , ha ... oh I wish mate.

T.

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Turpin

Finished my last workout of this 12 week training block with a 605lbs x 3 reps trap bar deadlift. Felt really good , fast and explosive.

https://www.youtube.com/...eature=youtu.be

I wrote on my Facebook page :

Sometimes ( just sometimes ) you have to stoke the fires of stupidity when challenging yourself or seeking improvement and thankfully sometimes FATE intervenes before you get your ass kicked LOL.
605lbs / 275kg on the trap bar with an intended 3 reps to conclude my 12 week training block ( 260 on the bar and an additional 7.5kg per side gaffer taped on top ... stupid ! ). Deep down these 3 reps felt good , much better , faster , more solid than I have ever performed them ( which was 18months ago ) and I was so much into the set I was intent that I was gonna pull 5 reps for a personal record BUT on completing the 3rd rep the top heavy bar rotated and the gaffer tape blew throwing the weights. I wanted to keep going , but it wasn't to be. Could have ended badly if I followed my heart and it happened mid rep setting my injury score to new heights but Fate was on my side today.

T.
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sirloin

Turpin wrote:
Finished my last workout of this 12 week training block with a 605lbs x 3 reps trap bar deadlift. Felt really good , fast and explosive.

https://www.youtube.com/...eature=youtu.be

I wrote on my Facebook page :

Sometimes ( just sometimes ) you have to stoke the fires of stupidity when challenging yourself or seeking improvement and thankfully sometimes FATE intervenes before you get your ass kicked LOL.
605lbs / 275kg on the trap bar with an intended 3 reps to conclude my 12 week training block ( 260 on the bar and an additional 7.5kg per side gaffer taped on top ... stupid ! ). Deep down these 3 reps felt good , much better , faster , more solid than I have ever performed them ( which was 18months ago ) and I was so much into the set I was intent that I was gonna pull 5 reps for a personal record BUT on completing the 3rd rep the top heavy bar rotated and the gaffer tape blew throwing the weights. I wanted to keep going , but it wasn't to be. Could have ended badly if I followed my heart and it happened mid rep setting my injury score to new heights but Fate was on my side today.

T.


Very well put, love it!!

Why do these Trap bar not come with longer loading bars? Its a mystry.
Have you ever tried log presses T? Am thinking of joining a gym thats run by one of NI's strongest men, it has the logs, stones, monster tires, 200lb DBs etc. Think given the direction my trainings going it might be better for training and learning.

Cheers
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Turpin

sirloin wrote:
Turpin wrote:
Finished my last workout of this 12 week training block with a 605lbs x 3 reps trap bar deadlift. Felt really good , fast and explosive.

https://www.youtube.com/...eature=youtu.be

I wrote on my Facebook page :

Sometimes ( just sometimes ) you have to stoke the fires of stupidity when challenging yourself or seeking improvement and thankfully sometimes FATE intervenes before you get your ass kicked LOL.
605lbs / 275kg on the trap bar with an intended 3 reps to conclude my 12 week training block ( 260 on the bar and an additional 7.5kg per side gaffer taped on top ... stupid ! ). Deep down these 3 reps felt good , much better , faster , more solid than I have ever performed them ( which was 18months ago ) and I was so much into the set I was intent that I was gonna pull 5 reps for a personal record BUT on completing the 3rd rep the top heavy bar rotated and the gaffer tape blew throwing the weights. I wanted to keep going , but it wasn't to be. Could have ended badly if I followed my heart and it happened mid rep setting my injury score to new heights but Fate was on my side today.

T.

Very well put, love it!!

Why do these Trap bar not come with longer loading bars? Its a mystry.
Have you ever tried log presses T? Am thinking of joining a gym thats run by one of NI's strongest men, it has the logs, stones, monster tires, 200lb DBs etc. Think given the direction my trainings going it might be better for training and learning.

Cheers


Coincidentally someone asked me similar just yesterday. Yes , I trained at a cracking old gym when I first began lifting ( a life time ago ) and being in Scotland many trained for the highland games and `odd lift` competitions were quite a regular occurrence against other lifting clubs. The log press was a mainstay of these comps and we had some real strong guys who were pushing some real weight overhead.
I never used it in training , instead we used to perform push presses with a barbell in order to get stronger for the log ... the latter was treated as a demonstration lift. Functional training can be very rewarding and these days it has become commonplace to train in this manner and not just viewed as demonstration of prowess.

T.


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sirloin

Turpin wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Turpin wrote:
Finished my last workout of this 12 week training block with a 605lbs x 3 reps trap bar deadlift. Felt really good , fast and explosive.

https://www.youtube.com/...eature=youtu.be

I wrote on my Facebook page :

Sometimes ( just sometimes ) you have to stoke the fires of stupidity when challenging yourself or seeking improvement and thankfully sometimes FATE intervenes before you get your ass kicked LOL.
605lbs / 275kg on the trap bar with an intended 3 reps to conclude my 12 week training block ( 260 on the bar and an additional 7.5kg per side gaffer taped on top ... stupid ! ). Deep down these 3 reps felt good , much better , faster , more solid than I have ever performed them ( which was 18months ago ) and I was so much into the set I was intent that I was gonna pull 5 reps for a personal record BUT on completing the 3rd rep the top heavy bar rotated and the gaffer tape blew throwing the weights. I wanted to keep going , but it wasn't to be. Could have ended badly if I followed my heart and it happened mid rep setting my injury score to new heights but Fate was on my side today.

T.

Very well put, love it!!

Why do these Trap bar not come with longer loading bars? Its a mystry.
Have you ever tried log presses T? Am thinking of joining a gym thats run by one of NI's strongest men, it has the logs, stones, monster tires, 200lb DBs etc. Think given the direction my trainings going it might be better for training and learning.

Cheers

Coincidentally someone asked me similar just yesterday. Yes , I trained at a cracking old gym when I first began lifting ( a life time ago ) and being in Scotland many trained for the highland games and `odd lift` competitions were quite a regular occurrence against other lifting clubs. The log press was a mainstay of these comps and we had some real strong guys who were pushing some real weight overhead.
I never used it in training , instead we used to perform push presses with a barbell in order to get stronger for the log ... the latter was treated as a demonstration lift. Functional training can be very rewarding and these days it has become commonplace to train in this manner and not just viewed as demonstration of prowess.

T.




Interesting, thank you.

Yeah, am a bit late to the functional training party lol, but am picking it up quite quicky, and loving it. Focusing on getting stronger on my feet, explosiveness and conditioning.
The one arm push press and farmers walks are my fav's, seeing the Dumbbell press in this years Battle of Britain and Ireland team strongman contest was great, seeing that 210lb DB going up for reps was brillant, got the juices flowing lol.
When focusing on overhead pressing, did you ever drop other presses, i.e., benches, dips etc? At the minute the only other press am doing is weighted feet eleveted pushups, but thinking of dropping it for a while to focus purely on the overhead pressing.
Cheers
Rob
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Turpin

sirloin wrote:

When focusing on overhead pressing, did you ever drop other presses, i.e., benches, dips etc? At the minute the only other press am doing is weighted feet eleveted pushups, but thinking of dropping it for a while to focus purely on the overhead pressing.
Cheers
Rob


No the OHP ( like all the comp lifts ) was a demonstration of the work put in over that period.
We would train the power clean , bench press , chins , front squats which were all conducive to the log press or OHP. Good thoracic mobility and strength were also imperative , pullovers provided these attributes.

T.

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