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natemason5

Ontario, CAN

Has anyone here ever experienced gains in strength, with little to no gains in size?

Example

These are sets from the middle of Sept.09

Deadlift 205lbsx12
Weighted Chins 25lbsx6
Weighted Dips 35lbsx8
Hammer Strength Rows 230lbsx6
Incline DB Press 65x7

These are sets from last week...middle of Apr.2010

Deadlift 315x6
Weighted Chins 50x4
Weighted Dips 85x8
HS Rows 290x5
Incline DB Press 90x6

Same weight...175lbs (plus or minus 2-3 pounds)

Other exercises are showing similar results. I've discovered that my pulling ability seems to progress slower than my pushing ability.

Comments???

Nate
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dhitquinn

Congragulations on the weights progress Nate

What does your diet look like have you increased protein and calories?

Dave
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coomo

Yes Nate. me too.However at 50 perhaps im not gonna get any more size.So am "leaning" down a little.ive got stronger, on some movemnts, and stalled on others.My legs have got a whole lot stronger on 1800 cals a day.Perhpas when ive at where i want to be fat wise, ill notice some size gains.Hopefully.
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Nwlifter

I have had that happen a couple times too, once even lost size while getting stronger. Never did those kinds of routines again that I was doing
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

One word:

EAT!!!
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howard1976

But your reps have gone down on every exercise except dips.

Like your deadlift have gone up a lot, BUT you are only doing half the reps now!

Try upping your reps,so as the make a bigger inroad!
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Bastion

Excellent poundage progression.
Have you increased or decreased your caloric intake during this time?.
It's already been mentioned, but perhaps maintaining your poundages and upping your rep count for a higher Tul might help as well. I recall Mike Mentzer saying several times that he would witness strength increases for long periods of time with little or no size increase to the point where he almost quit training all together. I suppose this is where experimenting might be the best teacher.
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natemason5

Ontario, CAN

ddhitquinn wrote:
Congragulations on the weights progress Nate

What does your diet look like have you increased protein and calories?

Dave


I eat well, but I don't count my calories. Lots of fruit, milk, yogourt in the morning. Sandwich at lunch. Standard dinners (meat/carbs/salad).

Nate
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natemason5

Ontario, CAN

simon-hecubus wrote:
One word:

EAT!!!


I eat...actually I eat quite a bit of food on a daily basis. I would guess that I'm consuming somewhere in the neighborhood of 2200-2600 calories per day.

Nate
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natemason5

Ontario, CAN

howard1976 wrote:
But your reps have gone down on every exercise except dips.

Like your deadlift have gone up a lot, BUT you are only doing half the reps now!

Try upping your reps,so as the make a bigger inroad!


I understand. With most of the exercises I'm currently working on getting a few more reps until I increase the weight again(ie. I just increased the weight on most exercises and have to get the reps back up to 7 or 8). With deadlifts, I'm currently working on getting to 315x10 until I go for another increase in weight.

Nate
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natemason5

Ontario, CAN

HIT27 wrote:
Excellent poundage progression.
Have you increased or decreased your caloric intake during this time?.
It's already been mentioned, but perhaps maintaining your poundages and upping your rep count for a higher Tul might help as well. I recall Mike Mentzer saying several times that he would witness strength increases for long periods of time with little or no size increase to the point where he almost quit training all together. I suppose this is where experimenting might be the best teacher.


I'm working on increasing both TUL and reps before another increase in weight.

Nate
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HeavyHitter32

Nate,

How often are you training each muscle?

I have found it impossible to even maintain size if training a muscle too infrequently even if I'm getting stronger.

Too infrequent, absolute minimal volume training always left me looking flat. Eating had nothing to do with it in those cases.
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dhitquinn

Hi Nate maybe increase your calories by around 500 or a little more, maybe try building up to around 3000-3500, adjust accordingly if you start to gain too much fat.

Be patient also there are cases where people gain strength for a period of months then somehow a massive spurt of size comes on afterwards, it doesnt neccesarily all happen at the same time.

stick with those weights also and try to get the reps up as one of the above posters said
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smanjh

Yeah, it happened with me. In your case, I would think you need to eat more if you keep gaining strength. Your deadlift should never be able to increase by a third and you gain nothing size wise, unless your original 205 pound lift was for 12 reps, and your new 300+ lift was for 5 or something.

If eating does not fix it, you may unfortunately need more of a workload component.

Meaning, you may be better off with 2 or 3 sets NTF than 1 set to total failure.

I am the same way. I believe NWLifter is the same way. I know thousands upon thousands of guys who did HIT in the past are the same way.

But yeah, try upping your calories, and make sure you up protein as well.
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Bastion

smanjh wrote:


Meaning, you may be better off with 2 or 3 sets NTF than 1 set to total failure.

I know thousands upon thousands of guys who did HIT in the past are the same way.


That's a pretty bogus claim.
If you know thousands upon thousands, you must be a real world class trainer. Who are you currently training?. Do you have a web site?. How big is your facility?.

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howard1976

If you manage to up your reps again, then you should see size gains.

But ive found if i go below 8 reps i find it very tough to add reps!!

I was caught in this trap for a long time,adding weight to the bar,thinking i was gaining, but my reps were going down as well.

Then i used to get stuck on low reps trying to add more reps which i could not do, or only get half to 1 more rep.So i thought i was overtraining and took more time off.

Get you reps back up to 10-12 and report back if still not gaining.You may need even more reps,more inroad(fatigue) to gain.
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jastrain

natemason5 wrote:
Has anyone here ever experienced gains in strength, with little to no gains in size?

Example

These are sets from the middle of Sept.09

Deadlift 205lbsx12
Weighted Chins 25lbsx6
Weighted Dips 35lbsx8
Hammer Strength Rows 230lbsx6
Incline DB Press 65x7

These are sets from last week...middle of Apr.2010

Deadlift 315x6
Weighted Chins 50x4
Weighted Dips 85x8
HS Rows 290x5
Incline DB Press 90x6

Same weight...175lbs (plus or minus 2-3 pounds)

Other exercises are showing similar results. I've discovered that my pulling ability seems to progress slower than my pushing ability.

Comments???

Nate

yes, i do the chins and dips with weight added. before i went on the akins diet i weighed 228--240 at my heaviest. i could only do 6 body weight chins and dips to failure. now, as of last week, i am strapping on 105lbs on my waist and doing 8 dips. my chins i do 8-10 reps with 70lbs added to my waist. i am 170lbs today. i lost around 70 lbs of fat and i added 2 reps to my dips and thats around 70lbs to my dips[i am subtracting the 70lbs of fat weight]. there is something to this atkins. i quess the protein feeds the muscle and at the same time your body can still lose a drastic amount of fat and gain strength. body builders knew about this stuff for along time. they used to always talk about protein as a mainstay to muscle building. but now i see first hand that this is really true. to gain strength while losing that much weight is something that i would have a very hard time with a restricted caloric diet. oh, but i see i misread your question. i have seen better results with these exercises than i have before. maybe it is the diet but people say i actually look bigger even though i lost 70lbs!!! i used to think my normal buffed out weight was around 200lbs but now i absolutely know that 200 was actually alot of extra fat--not muscle. i am extremely happy with my strength,size and appearance now the the fat is truly gone
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natemason5

Ontario, CAN

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Nate,

How often are you training each muscle?

I have found it impossible to even maintain size if training a muscle too infrequently even if I'm getting stronger.

Too infrequent, absolute minimal volume training always left me looking flat. Eating had nothing to do with it in those cases.


I just cut/pasted this from the "current routine" thread

Working out on Wednesday mornings (6-6:30am) I alternate A and B (Every other week)

A
Weighted Chins
Weighted Dips
Leg Press
DB shoulder press
Nautilus Nitro Bicep
One DB tricep Ext.

B
Hammer Pulldown
Hammer Chest Press
Hammer Row
Nitro Shoulder Press
Leg Press

All above sets are done with one set to failure (plus negatives/static holds).

On saturdays I do:
Deadlifts
Bench Press
BB bicep curls

These are done with 2-3 warmup sets working up to...
315lbs on deadlifts
225lbs on bench press
95lbs on curls(always been my weakest exercise!)
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natemason5

Ontario, CAN

ddhitquinn wrote:
Hi Nate maybe increase your calories by around 500 or a little more, maybe try building up to around 3000-3500, adjust accordingly if you start to gain too much fat.

Be patient also there are cases where people gain strength for a period of months then somehow a massive spurt of size comes on afterwards, it doesnt neccesarily all happen at the same time.

stick with those weights also and try to get the reps up as one of the above posters said


I'm not sure if I can expect a massive growth spurt. The most I've ever weighed was 187lbs. As I've said before, I'm just not a big guy. I was 5'8"(current height) and 130lbs when I was 18!

I agree about sticking with these weights until the reps are higher. My current poundages are some of the heaviest I've ever used, so I shouldn't need to go any heavier IMO.

I'm patient...I'll never stop working out.

Nate
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natemason5

Ontario, CAN

Just got back from todays workout:

Deadlifts 315x7
Bench Press 225x4
immediately followed by
Bench Press 185x6
Bicep curls 95x5

One more rep on Deadlifts, same on Bench, but one more on the second set. Biceps are awful! I've really got to get the reps up on that.

Nate
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natemason5

Ontario, CAN

smanjh wrote:
Yeah, it happened with me. In your case, I would think you need to eat more if you keep gaining strength. Your deadlift should never be able to increase by a third and you gain nothing size wise, unless your original 205 pound lift was for 12 reps, and your new 300+ lift was for 5 or something.

If eating does not fix it, you may unfortunately need more of a workload component.

Meaning, you may be better off with 2 or 3 sets NTF than 1 set to total failure.

I am the same way. I believe NWLifter is the same way. I know thousands upon thousands of guys who did HIT in the past are the same way.

But yeah, try upping your calories, and make sure you up protein as well.


My Saturday workout involves several NTF warm-up sets, but I think you mean with the same weight.

I've been doing HIT for so long I'm not sure I'd even know what a proper 2-3NTF sets workout looks like.

Nate
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natemason5

Ontario, CAN

jastrain wrote:
natemason5 wrote:
Has anyone here ever experienced gains in strength, with little to no gains in size?

Example

These are sets from the middle of Sept.09

Deadlift 205lbsx12
Weighted Chins 25lbsx6
Weighted Dips 35lbsx8
Hammer Strength Rows 230lbsx6
Incline DB Press 65x7

These are sets from last week...middle of Apr.2010

Deadlift 315x6
Weighted Chins 50x4
Weighted Dips 85x8
HS Rows 290x5
Incline DB Press 90x6

Same weight...175lbs (plus or minus 2-3 pounds)

Other exercises are showing similar results. I've discovered that my pulling ability seems to progress slower than my pushing ability.

Comments???

Nate
yes, i do the chins and dips with weight added. before i went on the akins diet i weighed 228--240 at my heaviest. i could only do 6 body weight chins and dips to failure. now, as of last week, i am strapping on 105lbs on my waist and doing 8 dips. my chins i do 8-10 reps with 70lbs added to my waist. i am 170lbs today. i lost around 70 lbs of fat and i added 2 reps to my dips and thats around 70lbs to my dips[i am subtracting the 70lbs of fat weight]. there is something to this atkins. i quess the protein feeds the muscle and at the same time your body can still lose a drastic amount of fat and gain strength. body builders knew about this stuff for along time. they used to always talk about protein as a mainstay to muscle building. but now i see first hand that this is really true. to gain strength while losing that much weight is something that i would have a very hard time with a restricted caloric diet. oh, but i see i misread your question. i have seen better results with these exercises than i have before. maybe it is the diet but people say i actually look bigger even though i lost 70lbs!!! i used to think my normal buffed out weight was around 200lbs but now i absolutely know that 200 was actually alot of extra fat--not muscle. i am extremely happy with my strength,size and appearance now the the fat is truly gone


I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. What do you mean by "I have seen better results with these exercises than I have before"?

Nate
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backtrack

All things being equal - rest, food, sleep, workout protocal bla bla bla then I would put it down to workout protocol. Through no fault of your own if your workouts don't tend to vary much from one week to another your body will become more efficient at lifting more weight with relatively the same amount of muscle mass. If this is not to blame then I would say lack of rest, if that is not to blame I would say lack of food. It could be a combination, but all things, but its more likely to be the symmetry of the workouts.

One way around this is to lift more than your body is used to for less reps. You just need to make small changes, but you can't force it , you have to be patient.


Dan
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Tomislav

New York, USA

natemason5 wrote:
simon-hecubus wrote:
One word:

EAT!!!

I eat...actually I eat quite a bit of food on a daily basis. I would guess that I'm consuming somewhere in the neighborhood of 2200-2600 calories per day.

Nate


Nate,
Scott is right; I'd say 2200 calories is enough food for an athletic female your height. You train heavy and you're in good shape but muscle is metabolically active and needs to eat, how can you make gains on 2200 calories? You can't build muscle from nothing and consistently eating enough food is one of the hardest things to do over time; escalating calories is too hard because it's not forgiving enough when you miss days. If your goal is to weigh 200 lbs at 5'8, start eating like a 200 lb man every day right now by doubling your calories; don't worry about gaining a little fat, the extra muscle you build will burn it off as you gain.
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smanjh

HIT27 wrote:
smanjh wrote:


Meaning, you may be better off with 2 or 3 sets NTF than 1 set to total failure.

I know thousands upon thousands of guys who did HIT in the past are the same way.


That's a pretty bogus claim.
If you know thousands upon thousands, you must be a real world class trainer. Who are you currently training?. Do you have a web site?. How big is your facility?.



I apologize for the miswording. I meant to say 'I know of thousands and thousands'. In person accounts and people I worked with, and the overwhelming amount of internet anecdotal testimonials.

It probably is not thousands and thousands that I know of, but several hundred at least, plus the guys I know in person.

I have spent hours upon hours over the years looking for HIT discussion on literally every board. Everyone ends up the same in the end with their rhetoric, even if they liked HIT at one point.

So, I am guessing that these people know people when they say something like this, so I count that up. If 500 people know 2 people that tried it and failed, then we have a thousand. If they know people, 2 thousand, and so on and so on.

If it worked magically, you would still have all of those Nautilus clubs up.

BTW, aren't you the same guy who owns HI.net?
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