MB Madaera
Lost 31.7 lbs fat
Built 11.7 lbs muscle


Chris Madaera
Built 9 lbs muscle


Keelan Parham
Lost 30 lbs fat
Built 4 lbs muscle


Bob Marchesello
Lost 23.55 lbs fat
Built 8.55 lbs muscle


Jeff Turner
Lost 25.5 lbs fat


Jeanenne Darden
Lost 26 lbs fat
Built 3 lbs muscle


Ted Tucker
Lost 41 lbs fat
Built 4 lbs muscle

 
 

Determine the Length of Your Workouts

Evaluate Your Progress

Keep Warm-Up in Perspective


ARCHIVES >>

"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

Mission Statement

H.I.T. Acceptable Use Policy

Privacy Policy

Credits

LOG IN FORUM MAIN REGISTER SEARCH
Supplements=Cheating?
1 | 2 | Next | Last
Author
Rating
Options

smanjh

In a random bought of insomnia, I started thinking about something more philosophical about the iron game outside of training. I would love to hear everyone's viewpoint on this, whether we agree on training specifics or not. I would especially love to hear the viewpoints from those that feel steroids are unethical and cheating.

Supplements, as you know, contain large amounts of things that sometimes you can not get in the diet. Most of them are garbage because the formulation is not in line with the lavish claims, and even if it were, nothing could do as promised with what is allowed per the DSHEA.

Creatine, specifically, is impossible to get the full benefit from if only consumed in the diet unless one ate thousands upon thousands of calories from red meat.

Herbs that require extraction are another touchy subject, since if it can be ergogenic with the right extraction, one would think it too would be crossing a moral line.

Steroids are 'natural' as well, since all of the chemicals come from nature, but man combines and does the right thing to complete the process, just like isolating creatine.

So, if you feel steroid use is wrong, do you feel the use of a supplement that actually does something is cheating as well? Even a multivitamin tablet can go against the grain of ethics because one could eat less calories or change his food choices because he does not have to worry about strict servings for the sake of meeting his required vitamin doses.

Is it the legality? There are people who want all supplements to be illegal as well. Is it the extreme sports enhancement that steroids provide but not so much natural supplements?

Let's hear what YOU think.
Open User Options Menu

howard1976

I have tryed loads of different supplements over the years and there ALL crap!

Lately i got tempted again and bought a product called tribestan,supposed to up test levels.

All it gave me was bad headaches and a spaced out feeling. I know this as ive been off it for 2 days and headache,spaced out feeling have gone.

I did try prohormones years ago when thay first came out,me being young i thought thay were just supplements as thay were advertised. Now thay do work!! But are basically steroids.

All i take now is vitamin c,b vitamins,vitamin E and just started taking flax seeds,ground up.
Open User Options Menu

smanjh

howard1976 wrote:
I have tryed loads of different supplements over the years and there ALL crap!

Lately i got tempted again and bought a product called tribestan,supposed to up test levels.

All it gave me was bad headaches and a spaced out feeling. I know this as ive been off it for 2 days and headache,spaced out feeling have gone.

I did try prohormones years ago when thay first came out,me being young i thought thay were just supplements as thay were advertised. Now thay do work!! But are basically steroids.

All i take now is vitamin c,b vitamins,vitamin E and just started taking flax seeds,ground up.


Interesting reaction to that product. Stuff like that enhances sex drive for me but does nothing for physique appearance or development.

I am having success with a product called Testopro, it has divanil in it, which seems to be a really cool ingredient that actually does something.

However, that is the crux of the issue, if it does something, is perfectly legal, is it still unethical?

Take caffeine before a workout in like 100-200 mg and you will find enhanced performance. Is this ethical or cheating in the same vein of using steroids?
Open User Options Menu

Waynes

Switzerland

smanjh wrote:
Stuff like that enhances sex drive for me.


Try Zinc for that.

Wayne
Open User Options Menu

jn6047

smanjh wrote:
howard1976 wrote:
However, that is the crux of the issue, if it does something, is perfectly legal, is it still unethical?



Depends on your ethics. It's not unethical to me.

jn6047
Open User Options Menu

smanjh

jn6047 wrote:
smanjh wrote:
howard1976 wrote:
However, that is the crux of the issue, if it does something, is perfectly legal, is it still unethical?



Depends on your ethics. It's not unethical to me.

jn6047


I feel the same way. I have no problem with using drugs or whatever as long as one is not breaking rules of competition, and getting themselves checked up to monitor themselves.

However judging from previous discussions, not everyone is like that, thus I was wondering if people that hate steroid use period hate supplement use as well.
Open User Options Menu

jn6047

smanjh wrote:
I feel the same way. I have no problem with using drugs or whatever as long as one is not breaking rules of competition, and getting themselves checked up to monitor themselves.

However judging from previous discussions, not everyone is like that, thus I was wondering if people that hate steroid use period hate supplement use as well.



Something else that should be said is that not everything we do that is illegal is wrong, nor is everything we do that is legal right (based on my version of right and wrong of course)...

jn6047
Open User Options Menu

smanjh

jn6047 wrote:
smanjh wrote:
I feel the same way. I have no problem with using drugs or whatever as long as one is not breaking rules of competition, and getting themselves checked up to monitor themselves.

However judging from previous discussions, not everyone is like that, thus I was wondering if people that hate steroid use period hate supplement use as well.


Something else that should be said is that not everything we do that is illegal is wrong, nor is everything we do that is legal right (based on my version of right and wrong of course)...

jn6047


I certainly agree, and I feel laws are made for 2 reasons:

1. To support the general well being of those lining the politician's pockets.

2. T support controlling the majority through appeasing their fears.

Steroids were outlawed 'for the children'.

However this question is based on the ethical views of using legal performance enhancement when illegal forms are cheating.

Some natural guys are just that: no protein powder, no vitamins, nothing. Just food and iron. Anything else is 'not natural'.

However, natural also means sleeping outside and pooping in a hole to me as well, so overlooking all of man's technological advancements make little sense.
Open User Options Menu

coomo

Waynes wrote:
smanjh wrote:
Stuff like that enhances sex drive for me.


Try Zinc for that.

Wayne

You might try a woman wayne.A real one that is, the inflatable variety dont really count.
Open User Options Menu

southbeach

if you can't see the difference b/w Vitamin E and abuse of steroids and GH for narcissistic purpose then i certainly can't help you
Open User Options Menu

entsminger

Virginia, USA

southbeach wrote:
if you can't see the difference b/w Vitamin E and abuse of steroids and GH for narcissistic purpose then i certainly can't help you


==Scott==
I sort of have to agree with Southbeach here except that using steroids is not abusing them, it's abuseing your body. This all boils down to your morals and upbringing and personally I won't take anything that has to be prescribed by a doctor unless it absolutely nessesary for my health including asprine. Comparing drugs and vitamins is like comparing apples and oranges. The negative effects of drugs is in no way comparable to the effects of vitamins and natural healthy supplements. Saying it all comes from the earth in one way or another does not make it all natural. Plutonium comes from the earth but I don't think I'd injest it if others said it would give me 21 inch arms.
Open User Options Menu

smanjh

entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
if you can't see the difference b/w Vitamin E and abuse of steroids and GH for narcissistic purpose then i certainly can't help you

==Scott==
I sort of have to agree with Southbeach here except that using steroids is not abusing them, it's abuseing your body. This all boils down to your morals and upbringing and personally I won't take anything that has to be prescribed by a doctor unless it absolutely nessesary for my health including asprine. Comparing drugs and vitamins is like comparing apples and oranges. The negative effects of drugs is in no way comparable to the effects of vitamins and natural healthy supplements. Saying it all comes from the earth in one way or another does not make it all natural. Plutonium comes from the earth but I don't think I'd injest it if others said it would give me 21 inch arms.


I get you, however you can take steroids and never see a negative effect. You can do the same thing with aspirin. And yes, vitamins can be dangerous if you overdose on them. It is very hard to do, but it is possible.

I guess I am questioning 'what is natural' and why?
Open User Options Menu

entsminger

Virginia, USA

I guess I am questioning 'what is natural' and why?

==Scott==
I guess to me being natural in terms of bodybuilding is consuming only foods or nutrition that comes off the shelf or your grocery store or health food store or farm. Anything that requires a prescription or administered by a doctor in the way of a drug of hormone would be out. I'm not saying it's wrong to take steroids, just very risky and unfair if the user claims he's not taking them. It really would be nice to see some actual bodybuilding competitions where the competitors really were drug free and never did use drugs. More than anything that would give us non drug users a better idea of what's possible drug free. Great guys like Ell Darden top my list! Who else out there is like him?
Open User Options Menu

HDLou

I consider drinking diet pop cheating since it contains an unnatural chemical. lol.
Open User Options Menu

wolfpuppy

Ontario, CAN

If you look at vitamins and natural supplements I think most people that take them are doing so with the belief that it is improving their health.

With steroids I don't think anyone is under any illusions that these will improve your health (unless you're a burn victim or have AIDS). Steroids are taken for vanity or for "leveling the playing field" in competition.

In my own opinion creatine is a "cheat". Like you said, the quantities you take are far beyond anything you would see in a normal diet, or even an extreme diet. In terms of its benefit for bodybuilding I still don't know what the fuss is about. For endurance athletes I can see the benefits: it helps you recover much quicker from your training or during your training/racing so you can go longer (or faster).

For bodybuilders it is detrimental: it helps you recover quicker but it does so by slowing muscular breakdown during training (in this regard, steroids do nothing to hinder muscular breakdown, but they certainly enhance muscular repair), and the weight you gain from creatine is just water weight anyway.
Open User Options Menu

wolfpuppy

Ontario, CAN

entsminger wrote:
...Comparing drugs and vitamins is like comparing apples and oranges. The negative effects of drugs is in no way comparable to the effects of vitamins and natural healthy supplements.


Though I mostly agree with you vitamins are not without their hazards.

indigestion
nausea
vomiting
diarrhea
flushing of the face
headache
fatigue
disturbed sleep
skin rashes

These are all side-effects of Vitamin C. Also, far more people go to Emergency of a hospital for vitamins related side-effects then steroids. Of course, this probably is in no small part to the number of people taking vitamins compared to steroids.

Open User Options Menu

HeavyHitter32

wolfpuppy wrote:
entsminger wrote:
...Comparing drugs and vitamins is like comparing apples and oranges. The negative effects of drugs is in no way comparable to the effects of vitamins and natural healthy supplements.

Though I mostly agree with you vitamins are not without their hazards.

indigestion
nausea
vomiting
diarrhea
flushing of the face
headache
fatigue
disturbed sleep
skin rashes

These are all side-effects of Vitamin C. Also, far more people go to Emergency of a hospital for vitamins related side-effects then steroids. Of course, this probably is in no small part to the number of people taking vitamins compared to steroids.



How much vitamin C are we talking here?
Open User Options Menu

smanjh

wolfpuppy wrote:
entsminger wrote:
...Comparing drugs and vitamins is like comparing apples and oranges. The negative effects of drugs is in no way comparable to the effects of vitamins and natural healthy supplements.

Though I mostly agree with you vitamins are not without their hazards.

indigestion
nausea
vomiting
diarrhea
flushing of the face
headache
fatigue
disturbed sleep
skin rashes

These are all side-effects of Vitamin C. Also, far more people go to Emergency of a hospital for vitamins related side-effects then steroids. Of course, this probably is in no small part to the number of people taking vitamins compared to steroids.



Yes, you can hurt yourself on anything really.

My point is, and let's assume the steroid user is not competing, is going to the doctor, and obtaining them legally somehow, he is not cheating anymore than us going into GNC and buying stuff Adam couldn't get with Eve.

Both are performance enhancing either way you cut it, but one works better.

So, if it doesn't come from the daily diet, whatever that may be with whole foods, it is cheating and not 'natural'.
Open User Options Menu

entsminger

Virginia, USA

smanjh wrote:
wolfpuppy wrote:
entsminger wrote:
...Comparing drugs and vitamins is like comparing apples and oranges. The negative effects of drugs is in no way comparable to the effects of vitamins and natural healthy supplements.

Though I mostly agree with you vitamins are not without their hazards.

indigestion
nausea
vomiting
diarrhea
flushing of the face
headache
fatigue
disturbed sleep
skin rashes

These are all side-effects of Vitamin C. Also, far more people go to Emergency of a hospital for vitamins related side-effects then steroids. Of course, this probably is in no small part to the number of people taking vitamins compared to steroids.



Yes, you can hurt yourself on anything really.

My point is, and let's assume the steroid user is not competing, is going to the doctor, and obtaining them legally somehow, he is not cheating anymore than us going into GNC and buying stuff Adam couldn't get with Eve.

Both are performance enhancing either way you cut it, but one works better.

So, if it doesn't come from the daily diet, whatever that may be with whole foods, it is cheating and not 'natural'.


==Scott==
In my opinion if someone comes clean that's he's using drugs and not claiming he's natural then he's not cheating but I also feel that drugs are not natural substances so even if you come clean that you are taking drugs it's a far stretch to say you are natural. Drugs are concoctions fabricated from things that do come from nature but are not naturally existing in their own form.

Protein from eggs, steaks etc etc come naturally. For the body to get the protein from an egg it doesn't have to be manipulated in some lab. Hormones or the substances in steroid type drugs typically do not exist in that form naturally. I've yet to see a Dinaball tree? Maybe they exist in California, ha ha.. hense I wouldn't call them natural whether a doctor administered them or not.
Open User Options Menu

Turpin

Im not against anyone taking whatever they want ( steroids , GH , pro-hormones etc ) and I couldnt give two hoots about if its ethical or not to anyone else.

Me ? ..... personally I train and always have for strength/health and well being. If vitamin/food supplements naturally aid in my well being by promoting/enhancing my natural state and assist my training in order to be such then I will take them .

Steroids and pro-hormones on the other hand shut down ones `natural` resources and provide an artificial state for the duration of their use and for a period thereafter ( the latter leaving the trainee in something of a `limbo` state hormonally )

Not for me thankyou !

T.

Open User Options Menu

db144

If you search, you will find many studies that reveal the majority of meat, fruit, and veggies do not hold the levels of nutrients you assume. Unless you purchase all natural farm raised meats and organic fruit and veggies from a reputable supplier it is not possible for you to cover your body's daily requirement and not remotely close to what you need if exercising hard. Saying the use supplements to ensure daily requirements are reached and to fuel your body after a workout is "cheating" is uninformed.
Open User Options Menu

entsminger

Virginia, USA

Im not against anyone taking whatever they want ( steroids , GH , pro-hormones etc ) and I couldnt give two hoots about if its ethical or not to anyone else.

==Scott==
I may be the odd man out on this forum or just about anywhere. I'm not a religious person in any way but I base my life around ethics and good morals. I care very much about the conduct and way of life of those around me so I do give a hoot when someone does something I feel to be wrong.To me taking steroids is as wrong as using LSD and I have quite a few past friends who are shining examples of that bad judgment.
Open User Options Menu

Turpin

entsminger wrote:
Im not against anyone taking whatever they want ( steroids , GH , pro-hormones etc ) and I couldnt give two hoots about if its ethical or not to anyone else.

==Scott==
I may be the odd man out on this forum or just about anywhere. I'm not a religious person in any way but I base my life around ethics and good morals. I care very much about the conduct and way of life of those around me so I do give a hoot when someone does something I feel to be wrong.To me taking steroids is as wrong as using LSD and I have quite a few past friends who are shining examples of that bad judgment.


I too base MY life around good ethics and morals Scott , what I meant was I couldnt care ( give two hoots ) what those that take them think in regards to if THEIR personal use is ethical or not , I prefer my `natural` state.

T.
Open User Options Menu

jn6047

entsminger wrote:

==Scott==
I may be the odd man out on this forum or just about anywhere. I'm not a religious person in any way but I base my life around ethics and good morals. I care very much about the conduct and way of life of those around me so I do give a hoot when someone does something I feel to be wrong.To me taking steroids is as wrong as using LSD and I have quite a few past friends who are shining examples of that bad judgment.



I am also not a religious person, and I also live my life around a moral and ethical system. I also take steroids. I do not affect anyone in a negative way through my procurment or use of them. They do not conflict with my moral or ethical beleifs. So, in effect, I am not doing anything wrong based on my own beleif/value system.

jn6047

Open User Options Menu

entsminger

Virginia, USA

jn6047 wrote:
entsminger wrote:

==Scott==
I may be the odd man out on this forum or just about anywhere. I'm not a religious person in any way but I base my life around ethics and good morals. I care very much about the conduct and way of life of those around me so I do give a hoot when someone does something I feel to be wrong.To me taking steroids is as wrong as using LSD and I have quite a few past friends who are shining examples of that bad judgment.


I am also not a religious person, and I also live my life around a moral and ethical system. I also take steroids. I do not affect anyone in a negative way through my procurment or use of them. They do not conflict with my moral or ethical beleifs. So, in effect, I am not doing anything wrong based on my own beleif/value system.

jn6047



==Scott==
Yes,it all boils down to our own value system. Just so you can better understand my insanity better this is how I think. Just as an example I generally don't make friends with someone who smokes. They have the right to smoke and I have the right to not be friends with them. I do have friends who do smoke and we've become friends in spite of them doing something that disgusts me because they have other traits that out weigh their bad habit but given the choice I prefer not to associate with someone who I feel is doing something wrong, smoking.
Oh brother, doesn't all this philosophical slop make you just want to throw up, ha ha...
I have to give you loads of credit for telling us that you take steroids. Many on here don't have the guts to admit it. I'm courious as to whether it really makes a difference?I'm sure it greatly helps with recovery? I'm guessing to even consider taking steroids you must have some pretty good genetics to use them on. Like I've said before, if I had the genetics of a Viator or Levrone instead of a Pee Wee Herman I'd probably be taking them as well and to hell with my ethics, ha ha.
Open User Options Menu
1 | 2 | Next | Last
Administrators Online: Mod Phoenix
H.I.T. Acceptable Use Policy