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must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
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3 Little Changes and Finally I'm Getting Bigger!
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serf

New Zealand

I've been training old-school Darden HIT style for about 3 years now, and didn't make much in the way of gains or a change in appearance until a few weeks ago. Now I'm heavier, stronger, with a smaller waistline and more solid-looking than ever before.

Firstly, I'm a 35 year-old ectomorph, 176cm at 73 kilograms.

I employed three changes to my usual HIT routine, and went from 68.5 kilograms to 73 kilograms in about 5 weeks without even trying.

1) I started meditating (watching my breath for 15 minutes commuting to work on the train in the morning and evening). The upshot is I hardly suffer from stress any more. This has been far more important for me than you might think, as in the past constant stress over a number of days often led to dramatic weight loss, and we all know the body recovers better when it's relaxed.

2) I started taking a weight gainer about 1.5 hours before bed. This made the biggest difference of all, as I've found as an ectomorph these 'milkshakes' are much easier to digest and I sleep better than I would if I had a meal.

3) I was training 2 times a week (around 9 exercises in 40 minutes, 1 set each to failure on all exercises). Then I started training 3 times a week plus a medium-intensity yoga class on Thursdays. (You might consider the yoga an NTF workout, as it works all my muscles, and makes me feel really good.)

So that's it. I urge those of you who are willing to admit you haven't really been making good gains for some time to try the extra session per week and healthy 'milkshake' or equivalent easy-to-digest meal at night to see what difference it makes for you.
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anab0lic

How much of this is quality weight though? I personally find a high calorie meal or shake right before bed puts fat on me pretty fast, especially if the calories are in sugar form which most weight gainers are...
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serf

New Zealand

Just to clear up a common fallacy, your overall calorie intake each day is what matters, not when you take it. If you do start getting too fat however, you might want to stop having the milkshake.

The goal is to consume slightly more calories than you use each day, and even if that means slight increases in body fat, that is better for muscle growth than not consuming enough calories. In fact Darden's research has shown that those who are slightly fat to begin with tend to make better gains than those who are thinner.

As per Darden's recommendations in more than one of his books (e.g. Bigger Muscles in 42 Days), calorie-dense shakes are suitable as the last meal at night to bolsters one's calorie intake for the day, especially for those who have trouble eating enough.
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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

Good post Serf.

Regards,
Andrew
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smanjh

This is really cool. I can not tell you how many times guys will ask me about why they are not making progress yet they weigh like 160 pounds. I ask them what they ate today, and it is like "A bagel at 6 am, and Big Mac for lunch, and possibly some tuna a little later".

It all comes out to be like 19-2000 calories, and they wonder wtf?

Then I stupidly say "eat more", and when I run into them a few months later they have launched on 20 pounds of fat because they would try to follow something stupid from a mag (you know, those 6-7000 'diets').

Then they get pissed and accuse me of making them fat. I tell them to stop shadow boxing between their dumbbell fly/curl supersets and start a real routine, and then they usually vanish after I, out of the goodness of my heart, show them MMF on the leg press (the only way to really let someone easily experience it).
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dhitquinn

smanjh wrote:
This is really cool. I can not tell you how many times guys will ask me about why they are not making progress yet they weigh like 160 pounds. I ask them what they ate today, and it is like "A bagel at 6 am, and Big Mac for lunch, and possibly some tuna a little later".

It all comes out to be like 19-2000 calories, and they wonder wtf?

Then I stupidly say "eat more", and when I run into them a few months later they have launched on 20 pounds of fat because they would try to follow something stupid from a mag (you know, those 6-7000 'diets').

Then they get pissed and accuse me of making them fat. I tell them to stop shadow boxing between their dumbbell fly/curl supersets and start a real routine, and then they usually vanish after I, out of the goodness of my heart, show them MMF on the leg press (the only way to really let someone easily experience it).


Exactly thats what i hear as well, they always add tuna to their diet

'i ate a can of drained tuna before i went for the workout'

they always also are into buying the latest creatine product or ?55 quid protein powder

the response i usually get is 'will all that food not make me fat i dont want to
get fat and i dont want to not be able to see my abs' i dont bother giving out advice these days its a total waste of time and i get nothing from it anymore, the way i see it is im not giving out good information when others out there are being paid to give out crap.
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serf

New Zealand

Thanks for the comments guys.

Absolutely true that MOST people who train harder and harder who make some progress forget that their bigger body now needs more calories to stay that size and even more to keep growing. Common sense but SO often ignored.

My other related point, especially for the 'less is more' advocates, is that this belief is plain false if taken too far. Allow me to qualify this statement: what I mean by this is that if 2 sessions per week isn't working, try at least 3. This worked wonders for me who under-trained for too long.

An NTF workout is an excellent idea too, as the whole point of Darden himself eventually adopting NTF workouts is due to the inarguable fact that beyond 48 (?) hours of inactivity, muscles begin to atrophy. We don't however want to train hard out on the fourth day, as this will be too taxing on one's recovery ability.
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HDLou

serf wrote:
Thanks for the comments guys.

Absolutely true that MOST people who train harder and harder who make some progress forget that their bigger body now needs more calories to stay that size and even more to keep growing. Common sense but SO often ignored.

My other related point, especially for the 'less is more' advocates, is that this belief is plain false if taken too far. Allow me to qualify this statement: what I mean by this is that if 2 sessions per week isn't working, try at least 3. This worked wonders for me who under-trained for too long.

An NTF workout is an excellent idea too, as the whole point of Darden himself eventually adopting NTF workouts is due to the inarguable fact that beyond 48 (?) hours of inactivity, muscles begin to atrophy. We don't however want to train hard out on the fourth day, as this will be too taxing on one's recovery ability.


Are your workouts full-body or split?
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smanjh

ddhitquinn wrote:
smanjh wrote:
This is really cool. I can not tell you how many times guys will ask me about why they are not making progress yet they weigh like 160 pounds. I ask them what they ate today, and it is like "A bagel at 6 am, and Big Mac for lunch, and possibly some tuna a little later".

It all comes out to be like 19-2000 calories, and they wonder wtf?

Then I stupidly say "eat more", and when I run into them a few months later they have launched on 20 pounds of fat because they would try to follow something stupid from a mag (you know, those 6-7000 'diets').

Then they get pissed and accuse me of making them fat. I tell them to stop shadow boxing between their dumbbell fly/curl supersets and start a real routine, and then they usually vanish after I, out of the goodness of my heart, show them MMF on the leg press (the only way to really let someone easily experience it).

Exactly thats what i hear as well, they always add tuna to their diet

'i ate a can of drained tuna before i went for the workout'

they always also are into buying the latest creatine product or ?55 quid protein powder

the response i usually get is 'will all that food not make me fat i dont want to
get fat and i dont want to not be able to see my abs' i dont bother giving out advice these days its a total waste of time and i get nothing from it anymore, the way i see it is im not giving out good information when others out there are being paid to give out crap.


Yeah, past your newbie gains, you have to eat so damn much and eventually lose your abs somewhat or you won't grow as fast.

No one, and I repeat no one stays in contest condition and grows...NO ONE!

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HeavyHitter32

I would just argue it probably doesn't make sense to go past 10-12% bodyfat while "bulking."
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smanjh

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
I would just argue it probably doesn't make sense to go past 10-12% bodyfat while "bulking."


If the 10% number is based off an actual caliper, then most people do not ever get to 10% in the first place. If said caliper test is performed by morons, the results are always severely skewed.

So, with that, most guys who think they are 10% are really like 16% or so.

With those numbers, those guys generally go from 16 to 22 percent or so.

So I am with you on not getting fat, but those numbers are low for optimal muscle growth in a lot of people.

However most people will misapply this and become like a true 35% or so while bulking to a certain weight.

So, a real 10 percent is very lean, very lean. Hell, a real 14% is pretty damn lean.

I am basing this on guys like Ronnie Coleman who gained 100 pounds lean or so through turning into an ugly yet muscular blob yet destroyed those who did not. Oh, and numerous guys who blast up into football/powerlifter status and lean down in order to put on more FFM than guys who tried to have visible abs all year.
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DownUnderLifter

Great progress Serf. Could you give us an example of some of the strength gains you have made while going from 68.5kg to 73kg?

Cheers dude

DUL
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serf

New Zealand

HDLou wrote:

Are your workouts full-body or split?


Always full-body workouts. Split routines only 3-4 40min sessions a week (~9 exercises, each to failure) makes no sense. (The interval between consecutive sessions for some body parts would be too long to keep 'building up' the muscle tissue.
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serf

New Zealand

smanjh wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:

If the 10% number is based off an actual caliper, then most people do not ever get to 10% in the first place. If said caliper test is performed by morons, the results are always severely skewed.



The main flaw with calipers is they only give you an approximate figure for the part measured, e.g. your arms. This doesn't take into account the rest of your body -- and as we all know, some people don't have typical physiques; some of us store fat in funny places. For these people in particular, one would be better off taking caliper readings in lots of places -- but even better, as per one of Dr Darden's very early books, the gold standard of body fat measurement is weighing oneself under water, or *hydrostatic weighing*. Fat is lighter than water. So one's true body fat percentage can be worked out by the difference between one's normal weight compared with one's weight on a special underwater scale.
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Tony Williams

serf wrote:
Thanks for the comments guys.

Absolutely true that MOST people who train harder and harder who make some progress forget that their bigger body now needs more calories to stay that size and even more to keep growing. Common sense but SO often ignored.

My other related point, especially for the 'less is more' advocates, is that this belief is plain false if taken too far. Allow me to qualify this statement: what I mean by this is that if 2 sessions per week isn't working, try at least 3. This worked wonders for me who under-trained for too long.

An NTF workout is an excellent idea too, as the whole point of Darden himself eventually adopting NTF workouts is due to the inarguable fact that beyond 48 (?) hours of inactivity, muscles begin to atrophy. We don't however want to train hard out on the fourth day, as this will be too taxing on one's recovery ability.


Do you honestly believe that muscles atrophy after 48 hours?

If that is true, how would you explain my increasing reps and/or weight during my workouts which sometimes are as much as 14-17 days apart?

My weight since February has increased from 182 to 198 yesterday although my waist size remains the same.

If I am gaining fat, and I might be, it is some place other than my waist.

Then again, I may just be a fathead :)

Regards,
Tony
Tony Lyndell Williams
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smanjh

serf wrote:
smanjh wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:

If the 10% number is based off an actual caliper, then most people do not ever get to 10% in the first place. If said caliper test is performed by morons, the results are always severely skewed.



The main flaw with calipers is they only give you an approximate figure for the part measured, e.g. your arms. This doesn't take into account the rest of your body -- and as we all know, some people don't have typical physiques; some of us store fat in funny places. For these people in particular, one would be better off taking caliper readings in lots of places -- but even better, as per one of Dr Darden's very early books, the gold standard of body fat measurement is weighing oneself under water, or *hydrostatic weighing*. Fat is lighter than water. So one's true body fat percentage can be worked out by the difference between one's normal weight compared with one's weight on a special underwater scale.


This is true. However a lot of people are going to OCD about being as lean as they can the whole time yet always wonder why the size part is not happening, or at least not happening quickly.

I am not saying to get fat as hell or do anything your unhappy with, but generally the biggest guys go that route where they do add a good bit of fat and morph into like a linebacker in order to add a lot of size quickly.

Then you come back down and your 10-20 pounds heavier lean.

Contrast this with the guy who tried to stay ripped all the time. My guy above will put on 4x the muscle in the same time as this guy.
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southbeach

smanjh wrote:
serf wrote:
smanjh wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:

If the 10% number is based off an actual caliper, then most people do not ever get to 10% in the first place. If said caliper test is performed by morons, the results are always severely skewed.



The main flaw with calipers is they only give you an approximate figure for the part measured, e.g. your arms. This doesn't take into account the rest of your body -- and as we all know, some people don't have typical physiques; some of us store fat in funny places. For these people in particular, one would be better off taking caliper readings in lots of places -- but even better, as per one of Dr Darden's very early books, the gold standard of body fat measurement is weighing oneself under water, or *hydrostatic weighing*. Fat is lighter than water. So one's true body fat percentage can be worked out by the difference between one's normal weight compared with one's weight on a special underwater scale.

This is true. However a lot of people are going to OCD about being as lean as they can the whole time yet always wonder why the size part is not happening, or at least not happening quickly.

I am not saying to get fat as hell or do anything your unhappy with, but generally the biggest guys go that route where they do add a good bit of fat and morph into like a linebacker in order to add a lot of size quickly.

Then you come back down and your 10-20 pounds heavier lean.

Contrast this with the guy who tried to stay ripped all the time. My guy above will put on 4x the muscle in the same time as this guy.


BS. your guy will put on 4X the FAT in the same time, i'll give you that.

prove it! prove that one needs to gain substantial FAT to gain muscle. prove it.

your suggestion is certainly not a healthy one ..

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Mr. Strong

smanjh wrote:
serf wrote:
smanjh wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:

If the 10% number is based off an actual caliper, then most people do not ever get to 10% in the first place. If said caliper test is performed by morons, the results are always severely skewed.



The main flaw with calipers is they only give you an approximate figure for the part measured, e.g. your arms. This doesn't take into account the rest of your body -- and as we all know, some people don't have typical physiques; some of us store fat in funny places. For these people in particular, one would be better off taking caliper readings in lots of places -- but even better, as per one of Dr Darden's very early books, the gold standard of body fat measurement is weighing oneself under water, or *hydrostatic weighing*. Fat is lighter than water. So one's true body fat percentage can be worked out by the difference between one's normal weight compared with one's weight on a special underwater scale.

This is true. However a lot of people are going to OCD about being as lean as they can the whole time yet always wonder why the size part is not happening, or at least not happening quickly.

I am not saying to get fat as hell or do anything your unhappy with, but generally the biggest guys go that route where they do add a good bit of fat and morph into like a linebacker in order to add a lot of size quickly.

Then you come back down and your 10-20 pounds heavier lean.

Contrast this with the guy who tried to stay ripped all the time. My guy above will put on 4x the muscle in the same time as this guy.



Out of the two groups who are healthier and fitter?
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1-HIT

Mr. Strong wrote:
smanjh wrote:
serf wrote:
smanjh wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:

If the 10% number is based off an actual caliper, then most people do not ever get to 10% in the first place. If said caliper test is performed by morons, the results are always severely skewed.

The only thing skewed is you using 2 accounts to validate yourself. Just let your smarter alterego southbeach post for you. Neither of you appear to workout but both of you appear equally inexperienced.

The main flaw with calipers is they only give you an approximate figure for the part measured, e.g. your arms. This doesn't take into account the rest of your body -- and as we all know, some people don't have typical physiques; some of us store fat in funny places. For these people in particular, one would be better off taking caliper readings in lots of places -- but even better, as per one of Dr Darden's very early books, the gold standard of body fat measurement is weighing oneself under water, or *hydrostatic weighing*. Fat is lighter than water. So one's true body fat percentage can be worked out by the difference between one's normal weight compared with one's weight on a special underwater scale.

This is true. However a lot of people are going to OCD about being as lean as they can the whole time yet always wonder why the size part is not happening, or at least not happening quickly.

I am not saying to get fat as hell or do anything your unhappy with, but generally the biggest guys go that route where they do add a good bit of fat and morph into like a linebacker in order to add a lot of size quickly.

Then you come back down and your 10-20 pounds heavier lean.

Contrast this with the guy who tried to stay ripped all the time. My guy above will put on 4x the muscle in the same time as this guy.


Out of the two groups who are healthier and fitter?


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Mr. Strong

1-HIT wrote:
Mr. Strong wrote:
smanjh wrote:
serf wrote:
smanjh wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:

If the 10% number is based off an actual caliper, then most people do not ever get to 10% in the first place. If said caliper test is performed by morons, the results are always severely skewed.

The only thing skewed is you using 2 accounts to validate yourself. Just let your smarter alterego southbeach post for you. Neither of you appear to workout but both of you appear equally inexperienced.

The main flaw with calipers is they only give you an approximate figure for the part measured, e.g. your arms. This doesn't take into account the rest of your body -- and as we all know, some people don't have typical physiques; some of us store fat in funny places. For these people in particular, one would be better off taking caliper readings in lots of places -- but even better, as per one of Dr Darden's very early books, the gold standard of body fat measurement is weighing oneself under water, or *hydrostatic weighing*. Fat is lighter than water. So one's true body fat percentage can be worked out by the difference between one's normal weight compared with one's weight on a special underwater scale.

This is true. However a lot of people are going to OCD about being as lean as they can the whole time yet always wonder why the size part is not happening, or at least not happening quickly.

I am not saying to get fat as hell or do anything your unhappy with, but generally the biggest guys go that route where they do add a good bit of fat and morph into like a linebacker in order to add a lot of size quickly.

Then you come back down and your 10-20 pounds heavier lean.

Contrast this with the guy who tried to stay ripped all the time. My guy above will put on 4x the muscle in the same time as this guy.


Out of the two groups who are healthier and fitter?




It was a legitimate question, care to answer?
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1-HIT

Mr. Strong wrote:
1-HIT wrote:
Mr. Strong wrote:
smanjh wrote:
serf wrote:
smanjh wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:

If the 10% number is based off an actual caliper, then most people do not ever get to 10% in the first place. If said caliper test is performed by morons, the results are always severely skewed.

The only thing skewed is you using 2 accounts to validate yourself. Just let your smarter alterego southbeach post for you. Neither of you appear to workout but both of you appear equally inexperienced.

The main flaw with calipers is they only give you an approximate figure for the part measured, e.g. your arms. This doesn't take into account the rest of your body -- and as we all know, some people don't have typical physiques; some of us store fat in funny places. For these people in particular, one would be better off taking caliper readings in lots of places -- but even better, as per one of Dr Darden's very early books, the gold standard of body fat measurement is weighing oneself under water, or *hydrostatic weighing*. Fat is lighter than water. So one's true body fat percentage can be worked out by the difference between one's normal weight compared with one's weight on a special underwater scale.

This is true. However a lot of people are going to OCD about being as lean as they can the whole time yet always wonder why the size part is not happening, or at least not happening quickly.

I am not saying to get fat as hell or do anything your unhappy with, but generally the biggest guys go that route where they do add a good bit of fat and morph into like a linebacker in order to add a lot of size quickly.

Then you come back down and your 10-20 pounds heavier lean.

Contrast this with the guy who tried to stay ripped all the time. My guy above will put on 4x the muscle in the same time as this guy.


Out of the two groups who are healthier and fitter?




It was a legitimate question, care to answer?


Why dont you get your alter ego southbeach to answer? Oh yeah you already did. Do you know how ridiculous you look answering your own questions with another name?
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HeavyHitter32

smanjh wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
I would just argue it probably doesn't make sense to go past 10-12% bodyfat while "bulking."

If the 10% number is based off an actual caliper, then most people do not ever get to 10% in the first place. If said caliper test is performed by morons, the results are always severely skewed.

So, with that, most guys who think they are 10% are really like 16% or so.

With those numbers, those guys generally go from 16 to 22 percent or so.

So I am with you on not getting fat, but those numbers are low for optimal muscle growth in a lot of people.

However most people will misapply this and become like a true 35% or so while bulking to a certain weight.

So, a real 10 percent is very lean, very lean. Hell, a real 14% is pretty damn lean.

I am basing this on guys like Ronnie Coleman who gained 100 pounds lean or so through turning into an ugly yet muscular blob yet destroyed those who did not. Oh, and numerous guys who blast up into football/powerlifter status and lean down in order to put on more FFM than guys who tried to have visible abs all year.


But, it all depends. A lot of people can faintly see their abs at a true 18-19%. Anyone should be able to gain muscle at that high of bodyfat. I think it just depends how they hold their fat, skin thickness, etc. in terms of seeing abs as that is often how people judge leaness visually.

I agree, a real (non-caliper) 14% is very lean but that should still be enough to gain muscle although surely their is a genetic component to it like everything else in life. In other words, some people can gain muscle at a leaner bodyfat than others. However, I would still think a real 14% is enough to gain muscle for most.
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anab0lic

Tony Williams wrote:
serf wrote:
Thanks for the comments guys.

Absolutely true that MOST people who train harder and harder who make some progress forget that their bigger body now needs more calories to stay that size and even more to keep growing. Common sense but SO often ignored.

My other related point, especially for the 'less is more' advocates, is that this belief is plain false if taken too far. Allow me to qualify this statement: what I mean by this is that if 2 sessions per week isn't working, try at least 3. This worked wonders for me who under-trained for too long.

An NTF workout is an excellent idea too, as the whole point of Darden himself eventually adopting NTF workouts is due to the inarguable fact that beyond 48 (?) hours of inactivity, muscles begin to atrophy. We don't however want to train hard out on the fourth day, as this will be too taxing on one's recovery ability.

Do you honestly believe that muscles atrophy after 48 hours?

If that is true, how would you explain my increasing reps and/or weight during my workouts which sometimes are as much as 14-17 days apart?

My weight since February has increased from 182 to 198 yesterday although my waist size remains the same.

If I am gaining fat, and I might be, it is some place other than my waist.

Then again, I may just be a fathead :)

Regards,
Tony
Tony Lyndell Williams



I believe this differs alot from trainee to trainee. Some people seem to retain their gains much better than others. Personally I am like the OP and seem to regress if there is much longer than 48 hours between rehitting a bodypart.
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smanjh

southbeach wrote:
smanjh wrote:
serf wrote:
smanjh wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:

If the 10% number is based off an actual caliper, then most people do not ever get to 10% in the first place. If said caliper test is performed by morons, the results are always severely skewed.



The main flaw with calipers is they only give you an approximate figure for the part measured, e.g. your arms. This doesn't take into account the rest of your body -- and as we all know, some people don't have typical physiques; some of us store fat in funny places. For these people in particular, one would be better off taking caliper readings in lots of places -- but even better, as per one of Dr Darden's very early books, the gold standard of body fat measurement is weighing oneself under water, or *hydrostatic weighing*. Fat is lighter than water. So one's true body fat percentage can be worked out by the difference between one's normal weight compared with one's weight on a special underwater scale.

This is true. However a lot of people are going to OCD about being as lean as they can the whole time yet always wonder why the size part is not happening, or at least not happening quickly.

I am not saying to get fat as hell or do anything your unhappy with, but generally the biggest guys go that route where they do add a good bit of fat and morph into like a linebacker in order to add a lot of size quickly.

Then you come back down and your 10-20 pounds heavier lean.

Contrast this with the guy who tried to stay ripped all the time. My guy above will put on 4x the muscle in the same time as this guy.

BS. your guy will put on 4X the FAT in the same time, i'll give you that.

prove it! prove that one needs to gain substantial FAT to gain muscle. prove it.

your suggestion is certainly not a healthy one ..



Coming from a guy who hasn't built 1 oz of muscle since the Reagan Administration, a guy who refuses to put up a picture because he just skinny. You really need to open your eyes:

Every competitive athlete that gains muscle by leaps and bounds does it this way. The guys who gain like 5 to ten pounds in like 5-10 years are the ones who do not.

I am not saying to blow up to obesity, but you have to do what you got to do and go to extremes if that is your goal.

As for health, the weight is gone in like 3 months for a long time until the guy repeats it. We are talking about going from 10 percent to like 18, not past 25%.

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smanjh

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
smanjh wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
I would just argue it probably doesn't make sense to go past 10-12% bodyfat while "bulking."

If the 10% number is based off an actual caliper, then most people do not ever get to 10% in the first place. If said caliper test is performed by morons, the results are always severely skewed.

So, with that, most guys who think they are 10% are really like 16% or so.

With those numbers, those guys generally go from 16 to 22 percent or so.

So I am with you on not getting fat, but those numbers are low for optimal muscle growth in a lot of people.

However most people will misapply this and become like a true 35% or so while bulking to a certain weight.

So, a real 10 percent is very lean, very lean. Hell, a real 14% is pretty damn lean.

I am basing this on guys like Ronnie Coleman who gained 100 pounds lean or so through turning into an ugly yet muscular blob yet destroyed those who did not. Oh, and numerous guys who blast up into football/powerlifter status and lean down in order to put on more FFM than guys who tried to have visible abs all year.

But, it all depends. A lot of people can faintly see their abs at a true 18-19%. Anyone should be able to gain muscle at that high of bodyfat. I think it just depends how they hold their fat, skin thickness, etc. in terms of seeing abs as that is often how people judge leaness visually.

I agree, a real (non-caliper) 14% is very lean but that should still be enough to gain muscle although surely their is a genetic component to it like everything else in life. In other words, some people can gain muscle at a leaner bodyfat than others. However, I would still think a real 14% is enough to gain muscle for most.


I would agree. Over on IntenseMuscle, Doggcrapp is always posting pictures of guys who do this and fly past the guys who stayed super lean all year.

Hell, even Darden puts like 4-5 pounds of fat on his guys, yet most of them are closer to the beginner stage when they start.
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