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Stiff-Legged Deadlifts and Pullovers
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-michael-

I recently finished reading through the nautilus bulletins and several other writings by Arthur Jones and Ellington Darden.

As such i have a couple of questions that have been bugging me and thought this would be the place to ask.

Firstly,throughout bulletin 1 and 2 Jones speaks highly of the stiff-legged deadlift for the lower back,but later noted the the lower back could only be strengthened if it was isolated from the hips. I notice that Dr Darden often recommends stiff-legged deadlifts in his routines. Essentially my question is does Dr Darden perform the exercise differently to the version Jones talked about in the bulletins?(i can only assume Jones may have been referring to the round back,locked legs version)


Secondly does any one have any ideas as to why barbell pullovers where often mentioned in the bulletins but never added to the sample routines?

Again, I realize these aren't exactly pressing issues,I was just curious

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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

I don't know if I have any answers to your DL questions regarding any differences of AJ vs. ED versions.

I used to do round-back SLDLs on top of a bench a la Lee Haney. I would go down until the BB touched the tops of my feet. When not conditioned, much lower back pain would ensue.

As I have gotten older, I have stuck with the flat-back Romanian-style. The BB usually goes as low as a few inches above my ankles. I seem to get more hammy work out of this version. I supplement with hyperextensions periodically more maximal lower back tension in the contacted position.
________________________________

I find EZ-Bar POs much less stressful on my elbows than the DB version. I often do a bent-arm version which comes out as a Triceps Ext/PO combo movement. It kills a few birds with one stone if you will.

Scott
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crazeeJZ

I don't know, but after about 3 plates a side, SLDL's turned more into deadlifts for me(minus touching the ground). Like the way Dorian Yates teaches Kai Greene to do them in MD's website, so I stopped doing them and just stuck to squats. Didn't want the overlap.
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OmarZakariyaKhan


At the Body by Science YouTube site there's a video showing a variant of the barbell deadlift where the hips are locked in position by pressing the butt against a wall and doing back extensions through spinal extension and flexion only. The movement is similar to back extensions on a 45 degree device.
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dipsrule

Pennsylvania, USA

db pullover Dr. Darden's books has the db pullover in them. It is in living longer stronger
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

OmarZ wrote:
At the Body by Science YouTube site there's a video showing a variant of the barbell deadlift where the hips are locked in position by pressing the butt against a wall and doing back extensions through spinal extension and flexion only. The movement is similar to back extensions on a 45 degree device.


Sounds interesting. How far from the wall are the feet placed?
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OmarZakariyaKhan

http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=DSIiPmSBdro

Scott, skip to 3:20 in the above YouTube link for an illustration of freeweight back extensions
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-michael-

dipsrule wrote:
db pullover Dr. Darden's books has the db pullover in them. It is in living longer stronger



Yes, I understand Dr Darden includes dumbbell pullovers in alot of the routines he makes. But what i meant was why wasn't a varaition of the pullover used in the sample routines in nautilus bulletins 1 and 2.
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-michael-

simon-hecubus wrote:
I don't know if I have any answers to your DL questions regarding any differences of AJ vs. ED versions.

I used to do round-back SLDLs on top of a bench a la Lee Haney. I would go down until the BB touched the tops of my feet. When not conditioned, much lower back pain would ensue.

As I have gotten older, I have stuck with the flat-back Romanian-style. The BB usually goes as low as a few inches above my ankles. I seem to get more hammy work out of this version.



I currently do a version of the exercise that seems to be something between a "romanian" and "semi-stiff leg" . The biggest problem i have with the exercise is finding decent info on how to perform it properly.Thats why i want to find out how Arthur Jones and Dr Darden perform stiff-legged deadlifts.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

-michael- wrote:
I currently do a version of the exercise that seems to be something between a "romanian" and "semi-stiff leg" . The biggest problem i have with the exercise is finding decent info on how to perform it properly.Thats why i want to find out how Arthur Jones and Dr Darden perform stiff-legged deadlifts.


Here's what I know on that:

* Knees cocked and locked, maybe 10-15 degrees from straight. NEVER hyperextend.

* Keep the back flat or a slight arch. Lower as far as you can w/o breaking this rule.

* At the top, stop just shy of straight up, with your butt still sticking out a bit, gymnast style.

The video clip OmarZ provides has soem interesting points. Personally, I think McGuff is too strict in that one, but at least he gives you a safe starting point. You can decide later which way you want to go.

McG was using 95 (or was it 115?) in that video. I use 255 on a slightly looser version and I ain't one of the strong guys around here.

I alternate between the Stiff/Rom version and a partial Rack DL for periods of time. With the Rack, I pull from a few inches below the knees and use at least 100 lbs more than with the SLDLs.

Scott
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Yes

I prefer to do SLDL's with this kind of form:
http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=Ddu4K5tZEvw

The goal here being to load the whole bakside; erectors, glutes and hams.

I also like dropping the shoulders and allowing a slight bend in the thoracic spine - just so these muscles can work a little more dynamically when straightening up. However, caution is advised with such form - it's easy to also bend the lower back if you're not cautious.
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HDLou

Yes wrote:
I prefer to do SLDL's with this kind of form:
http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=Ddu4K5tZEvw

The goal here being to load the whole bakside; erectors, glutes and hams.

I also like dropping the shoulders and allowing a slight bend in the thoracic spine - just so these muscles can work a little more dynamically when straightening up. However, caution is advised with such form - it's easy to also bend the lower back if you're not cautious.


That is what is considered a Romanian Deadlift. I've been doing them that way as well.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Yes wrote:
I prefer to do SLDL's with this kind of form:
http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=Ddu4K5tZEvw

The goal here being to load the whole bakside; erectors, glutes and hams.

I also like dropping the shoulders and allowing a slight bend in the thoracic spine - just so these muscles can work a little more dynamically when straightening up. However, caution is advised with such form - it's easy to also bend the lower back if you're not cautious.


That video and what you're describing are 2 different things. Yes that is a Romanian DL he is performing, for as as you see there's no bend in his spine at all in the movement.

Lots of weight there, but I'm not impressed by the 1-1/2 reps part. If the weights are clanking before you even start the movement, that's a good sign you're using too much.

When you bend the spine is when it becomes something else. It has its place, though I'm gald you recognize it must be performed with much caution.

Scott
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-michael-

Yes wrote:
I prefer to do SLDL's with this kind of form:
http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=Ddu4K5tZEvw

The goal here being to load the whole bakside; erectors, glutes and hams.

I also like dropping the shoulders and allowing a slight bend in the thoracic spine - just so these muscles can work a little more dynamically when straightening up. However, caution is advised with such form - it's easy to also bend the lower back if you're not cautious.



Thats how i have been doing them,except i start from the gound and the ROM looks more like this

http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=ib2aSFn33QA
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Yes

-michael- wrote:
Yes wrote:
I prefer to do SLDL's with this kind of form:
http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=Ddu4K5tZEvw

The goal here being to load the whole bakside; erectors, glutes and hams.

I also like dropping the shoulders and allowing a slight bend in the thoracic spine - just so these muscles can work a little more dynamically when straightening up. However, caution is advised with such form - it's easy to also bend the lower back if you're not cautious.


Thats how i have been doing them,except i start from the gound and the ROM looks more like this

http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=ib2aSFn33QA

I'd be careful with the ROM here. If you can perform them with good form, then by all means do so, but that video demonstrates someone using a ROM he can't quite handle. Notice how he starts bending his lower back when he gets low - that's a sure sign of using a ROM outside the limits of his mobility. It's not that bad in this case, but imagine what will happen if he keeps that form while increasing weights.
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Yes

simon-hecubus wrote:
Lots of weight there, but I'm not impressed by the 1-1/2 reps part. If the weights are clanking before you even start the movement, that's a good sign you're using too much.

I believe it must be pretty darn hard not to have clanking plates when the bar bends like that. Can't say i'm talking out of experience though, i'm not strong enough to have the bar bend.

Considering his form doesn't break I don't agree it's too much weight, though I fail to see why anyone would do such low reps on that exercise.
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-michael-

If i wanted to but one of Ellington's books that had detailed exercise descriptions for conventional equipment like barbells,dumbbells,etc (including his take on stiff-legged deadlifts) what would be my best choice?

It'd be nice to have a reference of good form from someone like Ellington who doesn't advocate jerking and throwing weights around.
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Tony Williams

from Stuart McRobert's "Build Muscle, Lose Fat, Look Great", page 434:

"The full-range, stiff-legged deadlift isn't including in "The Program" because it is too hazardous.

"Instead less risky, but effective exercises are employed for the hamstrings, hips and back, which are the primary areas worked by the full-range, stiff-legged deadlift.

"The exercises employed for these areas are the conventional deadlift (and the recommended variations of it), leg curl, and back extension.

"Of course, these exercises must be performed correctly if they are to be safe."

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HeavyHitter32

-michael- wrote:
If i wanted to but one of Ellington's books that had detailed exercise descriptions for conventional equipment like barbells,dumbbells,etc (including his take on stiff-legged deadlifts) what would be my best choice?

It'd be nice to have a reference of good form from someone like Ellington who doesn't advocate jerking and throwing weights around.


The New HIT book gives great descriptions of free weight movements and illustrations.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Yes wrote:
Considering his form doesn't break I don't agree it's too much weight, though I fail to see why anyone would do such low reps on that exercise.


That's what I was also alluding to when I said I wasn't impressed with the 1-1/2 reps. Unless he was doing the last half-rep as a very slow negative (as opposed to a quickly dropped BB), I'd say the low reps prove the too much weight part better than the clanking.
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crazeeJZ

Tony Williams wrote:
from Stuart McRobert's "Build Muscle, Lose Fat, Look Great", page 434:

"The full-range, stiff-legged deadlift isn't including in "The Program" because it is too hazardous.

"Instead less risky, but effective exercises are employed for the hamstrings, hips and back, which are the primary areas worked by the full-range, stiff-legged deadlift.

"The exercises employed for these areas are the conventional deadlift (and the recommended variations of it), leg curl, and back extension.

"Of course, these exercises must be performed correctly if they are to be safe."



I agree. The lower back seems at high risk when at the bottom of the movement with very heavy weight. It's more protected in the regular deadlift, so it makes more sense to me to move to the regular deadlift after reaching heavy weight on the SLDL.

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-michael-

Are bent-arm pullovers done as a greater ROM chin-up or as a different exercise entirely,as in if you are doing pullovers in a routine there is no need to do chin-ups?


and why does Ellington still add stiff-legged deadlifts to his routines if they don't work the lower back,why not just do squats?
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-michael-

Surely someone must know something?
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HeavyHitter32

The stiff legged deadlifts work the backside of the body well, but the key is to not use so much weight that you are performing low reps. Keep the reps more moderate to higher for safety reasons.

Regarding the pullover vs chin- the chin is a more productive movement than any pullover - including the Nautilus.
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crazeeJZ

-michael- wrote:
Are bent-arm pullovers done as a greater ROM chin-up or as a different exercise entirely,as in if you are doing pullovers in a routine there is no need to do chin-ups?


They both work the lats. Generally, I'd go with chin-ups(probably parallel grip) over pullovers, just like I'd go with chest presses over flyes for chest.


and why does Ellington still add stiff-legged deadlifts to his routines if they don't work the lower back,why not just do squats?


The SLDL does work the lower back. You can't do them without the lower back and abs working hard to not round your back. But yeah, there's a lot of overlap between them and squats, so I would just stick to squats because of their not-so-limited leg range of motion.



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