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sgb2112

It seems that the Renaissance thread has become a bit derailed. A few members have become inquired about Rouge HIT, so they can post questions or thoughts about the method on this thread.

Rouge HIT got much hate mainly because it's chief proponent, Waynes, was intolerable. That and he ended up adding so many sets that he surpassed all IFBB pros in volume.

I have a few questions..

1. Could MedX machines be used for this protocol?

2. Your thoughts on training once per week full body, using an upper body push, pull, and leg press. Using 20/10/5. Sufficient or is a split routine mandatory?






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HeavyHitter32

Just my experience...

I used Rogue HIT back in 2007. John was gracious enough to give me some personal training advice based on the feedback I gave him as I was using a Bowflex Ultimate. At that point, I had been using the Bowflex for almost four years. On any rate, using a 25/15/8 rep scheme (or thereabouts...as it varied) I reached my all-time highs in weight and reps on the Bowflex.

I reached levels I was never able to achieve using one set per muscle to failure. Unfortunately, I maxed out the leg press and squat resistance on the machine (which isn't hard to do) and reached a point where I needed heavier weight as the reps were getting very, very high. Long story short, I dropped the approach and began fiddling around with other training methods (JReps, strip sets, etc.)

Last year, I dumped the Bowflex for various reasons and returned to much better equipment (Powertec Multi-station) and have recently decided to give Rogue HIT a real try again and am very much looking forward to seeing what it offers. I trained legs two days ago with this approach and while I know soreness doesn't mean a lot, my legs haven't been this sore in a LONG time and they are still looking very full and tight.
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Joshua Trentine

Ohio, USA

sgb2112 wrote:
It seems that the Renaissance thread has become a bit derailed. A few members have become inquired about Rouge HIT, so they can post questions or thoughts about the method on this thread.

Rouge HIT got much hate mainly because it's chief proponent, Waynes, was intolerable. That and he ended up adding so many sets that he surpassed all IFBB pros in volume.

I have a few questions..

1. Could MedX machines be used for this protocol?

2. Your thoughts on training once per week full body, using an upper body push, pull, and leg press. Using 20/10/5. Sufficient or is a split routine mandatory?









THANK YOU , for starting this thread!

I'm all for one dedicated to Bio's ideas.
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Turpin

Havent tried it , however in my opinion/experience I personally feel that ANY sensible programme that provides suffice stimulus to the involved musculature will work provided suffice recovery/adaptation is allowed thereafter.
If one does not wish to prolong recovery or has a hard time recovering ( poor recovery ability /exercise tolerance / high contractile ability etc ) then use less total volume per workout to accomodate.

Regardless , once the muscle has been subject to stimulus ( which is easy & can be done many ways ) progress will only be forthcoming with RECOVERY.

Brief , intense & infrequent.

T.
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HDLou

sgb2112 wrote:
It seems that the Renaissance thread has become a bit derailed. A few members have become inquired about Rouge HIT, so they can post questions or thoughts about the method on this thread.

Rouge HIT got much hate mainly because it's chief proponent, Waynes, was intolerable. That and he ended up adding so many sets that he surpassed all IFBB pros in volume.

I have a few questions..

1. Could MedX machines be used for this protocol?

2. Your thoughts on training once per week full body, using an upper body push, pull, and leg press. Using 20/10/5. Sufficient or is a split routine mandatory?



That's nothing more than a knockoff of former Pro Bodybuilder Phil Hernon's training system. He has been using it since the early 90's.
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sgb2112

Thanks for the replies so far. I will read up on Hernon, thanks.

I do hope Bio replies if this system is applicable for full body training. It would slot nicely into Matt Bryzewski(sp) 3X3 HIT, done once or twice a week.
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thebiggfella

Turpin wrote:
Regardless , once the muscle has been subject to stimulus ( which is easy & can be done many ways ) progress will only be forthcoming with RECOVERY.

Brief , intense & infrequent.



That's it in a nutshell.

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H.I.T. Believer

starting this thread was a good idea..i will post all my rogue hit questions here and my renaissance questions on that thread
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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

sgb2112 wrote:
It seems that the Renaissance thread has become a bit derailed. A few members have become inquired about Rouge HIT, so they can post questions or thoughts about the method on this thread.

Rouge HIT got much hate mainly because it's chief proponent, Waynes, was intolerable. That and he ended up adding so many sets that he surpassed all IFBB pros in volume.

I have a few questions..

1. Could MedX machines be used for this protocol?


While I have little time to post (except a bit last week) information regarding the Rogue HIT protocol can be found here:

http://bioforce.proboards.com/...splay&thread=41

To answer your specific question, Rogue HIT can be adapted a bit to most machines and programs, but the MEDX would likely be the least valuable since their very design is for SLOW reps. Rogue HIT is primarily a POWER accented program where the idea is to generate maximum power throughout the set. MEDX is really not good for that.

The best devices and exercises are ones that allow for large Kinetic Chains (compound actions) that have HIGH LOAD potential (like Benches/Squats/Leg Presses/BB Rows etc)



2. Your thoughts on training once per week full body, using an upper body push, pull, and leg press. Using 20/10/5. Sufficient or is a split routine mandatory?


Generally Speaking, NO, that is not the best implementation. Rogue HIT eventually becomes a BRUTAL and INTENSE program that employs small progressions and longer adaptive periods. Because of the fact that you will likely use far more weight than you have ever used in your life, progress NEEDS to be S-L-O-W, so that the hard tissues can adapt to the the stresses.

I suppose you could do the following:

1) Dips or Benches 20RM/10RM/5RM
2) BB Rows or Pulldowns 20RM/10RM/5RM
3) Leg Presses 30RM/15RM/8RM

But the above would eventually entail at least 9 Rep Maximum sets of FULL EFFORT on each.

You would then take 7-10 days off and do it again. The secret to getting the best and long term results is sensing and getting in touch with your recoverability. In general you don't want to see any signs of "over-reaching" (meaning lack of recovery between sessions that impacts your ability to see progress)

The other secret as mentioned above is to keep the progressions VERY LOW. Adding only 1# or a single rep to each or any set is progress. Since you will basically train the same exercise 40 - 50 times a year, you can add a minimum of 40-50# to each. BE PATIENT if you want to use HUGE weights and not injure yourself.

The Typical RH routine has only TWO key exercise actions, (generally 6 sets and no more than 8) antagonistically paired and performed in an alternating fashion with full recovery between sets to allow for maximum efforts and performances.

But unless you are older, or have a time problem, it is far more productive to perform a 3 way split of:

1) Chest/Back
2) Legs/Torso
3) Arms/Shoulders

A word of caution:

While some might see or direct you to my videos on youtube, these ARE NOT intended to demonstrate a particular form for you to copy.

Most of these videos were shot when I was at various peak conditions and had conditioned myself for the levels of forces I imposed with that form. If you are not conditioned for that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you attempt the same.

You should begin with a more conservative and traditional form and SLOWLY (again) allow yourself to explore positions, and rep speeds, BUT ONLY when you are comfortable and confident in your ability.

STOP a rep or set at ANY perception of pain that shouldn't be there and SHUT DOWN the workout right then. That pain is simply telling you you need another week to recover, and adapt. Then next workout perfrom an additional warm up set of 20-50 reps with a light load before you attempt the lift again.

Training should be to make you stronger, and fitter, not hobbled and injured.
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H.I.T. Believer

bioforce:
But unless you are older, or have a time problem, it is far more productive to perform a 3 way split of:

1) Chest/Back
2) Legs/Torso
3) Arms/Shoulders

could one do this as an a-b-c routine alternating between a and b one week and b and c the next..im wondering if in someone with some overuse joint issues-using their upperbody joints once per week may not be better for them.
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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

H.I.T. Believer wrote:
bioforce:
But unless you are older, or have a time problem, it is far more productive to perform a 3 way split of:

1) Chest/Back
2) Legs/Torso
3) Arms/Shoulders

could one do this as an a-b-c routine alternating between a and b one week and b and c the next..im wondering if in someone with some overuse joint issues-using their upperbody joints once per week may not be better for them.


Yes, and you can "space" them out as per your recoverability.

That is you can have 2 days between workouts or 10 days between workouts. The recovery cycle should fit "your" capabilites.

Youngsters will be able to fit all three into a MWF routine.

We Geezers might need 3-10 days between WOs. Plus, it will depend on how INTENSELY you train and what level of FATIGUES you create, as to how long the recovery cycle needs to be.

If you have painful joints, you need also consider "SPECIFIC" warm-up and prepatory actions to reduce damaging joint stresses.

NEVER TRAIN on a painful joint. It must be rehabbed first.

DO NOT habitually use OTC anti-inflamatories as they make things worse.

Use natural anti-inflamatories like megadoses of fish oils.

Also FROM may be causing joint problems as your joints really have not evolved to always distribute force/loads at the extreme ROMs.

You will likely have less joint stress with movements that DO NOT have full extensions (lockouts) and full flexions of most joints (there are exceptions)

So non-lock actions will often be joint sparing (but again it depends on the action)

All of the above will seem less important the younger you are. If you're 18, they may seem crazy. If your 50, you may think they are not enough.

Train your age, but remember while I like to use reasonably large weights (at least for me) and form that allows higher force levels, I NEVER train in pain, and abusing your joints early in life might be like living on CREDIT.

Eventually it can cause a problem.

With Rogue HIT, that first set of 20 or sometimes even 30 reps, while it can get heavy, is generally a prepatory set that warms you up for additional loads and efforts.

If you went to the track to run 100m sprints, would you do so without warming up? Not 4 long.

Train Smart.

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fbcoach

HDLou wrote:
sgb2112 wrote:
It seems that the Renaissance thread has become a bit derailed. A few members have become inquired about Rouge HIT, so they can post questions or thoughts about the method on this thread.

Rouge HIT got much hate mainly because it's chief proponent, Waynes, was intolerable. That and he ended up adding so many sets that he surpassed all IFBB pros in volume.

I have a few questions..

1. Could MedX machines be used for this protocol?

2. Your thoughts on training once per week full body, using an upper body push, pull, and leg press. Using 20/10/5. Sufficient or is a split routine mandatory?



That's nothing more than a knockoff of former Pro Bodybuilder Phil Hernon's training system. He has been using it since the early 90's.


I mnetioned this a long while ago. I believe he combined it with some sort of crazy diet, eating a large amount of apples. I believe Bio explain the reasoning behind it. I have been on a training cycle for a few months now, with no signs of plateauing. When I do, I am going to give this a go. It definitely looks worth giving it a shot for older trainees, considering the loads.
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RW Hawk

Virgin Islands

BIO-FORCE wrote:
Train Smart


Heaving weights around the way you do is not smart.

There is literally no good reason to perform an exercise that way.
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fbcoach

Bio..quick question?
Should you start at your rep maximum or sort of break in with a prepatory stage? Thanks
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

BIO-FORCE wrote:
sgb2112 wrote:
It seems that the Renaissance thread has become a bit derailed. A few members have become inquired about Rouge HIT, so they can post questions or thoughts about the method on this thread.

Rouge HIT got much hate mainly because it's chief proponent, Waynes, was intolerable. That and he ended up adding so many sets that he surpassed all IFBB pros in volume.

I have a few questions..

1. Could MedX machines be used for this protocol?

While I have little time to post (except a bit last week) information regarding the Rogue HIT protocol can be found here:

http://bioforce.proboards.com/...splay&thread=41

To answer your specific question, Rogue HIT can be adapted a bit to most machines and programs, but the MEDX would likely be the least valuable since their very design is for SLOW reps. Rogue HIT is primarily a POWER accented program where the idea is to generate maximum power throughout the set. MEDX is really not good for that.

The best devices and exercises are ones that allow for large Kinetic Chains (compound actions) that have HIGH LOAD potential (like Benches/Squats/Leg Presses/BB Rows etc)



2. Your thoughts on training once per week full body, using an upper body push, pull, and leg press. Using 20/10/5. Sufficient or is a split routine mandatory?

Generally Speaking, NO, that is not the best implementation. Rogue HIT eventually becomes a BRUTAL and INTENSE program that employs small progressions and longer adaptive periods. Because of the fact that you will likely use far more weight than you have ever used in your life, progress NEEDS to be S-L-O-W, so that the hard tissues can adapt to the the stresses.

I suppose you could do the following:

1) Dips or Benches 20RM/10RM/5RM
2) BB Rows or Pulldowns 20RM/10RM/5RM
3) Leg Presses 30RM/15RM/8RM

But the above would eventually entail at least 9 Rep Maximum sets of FULL EFFORT on each.

You would then take 7-10 days off and do it again. The secret to getting the best and long term results is sensing and getting in touch with your recoverability. In general you don't want to see any signs of "over-reaching" (meaning lack of recovery between sessions that impacts your ability to see progress)

The other secret as mentioned above is to keep the progressions VERY LOW. Adding only 1# or a single rep to each or any set is progress. Since you will basically train the same exercise 40 - 50 times a year, you can add a minimum of 40-50# to each. BE PATIENT if you want to use HUGE weights and not injure yourself.

The Typical RH routine has only TWO key exercise actions, (generally 6 sets and no more than 8) antagonistically paired and performed in an alternating fashion with full recovery between sets to allow for maximum efforts and performances.

But unless you are older, or have a time problem, it is far more productive to perform a 3 way split of:

1) Chest/Back
2) Legs/Torso
3) Arms/Shoulders

A word of caution:

While some might see or direct you to my videos on youtube, these ARE NOT intended to demonstrate a particular form for you to copy.

Most of these videos were shot when I was at various peak conditions and had conditioned myself for the levels of forces I imposed with that form. If you are not conditioned for that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you attempt the same.

You should begin with a more conservative and traditional form and SLOWLY (again) allow yourself to explore positions, and rep speeds, BUT ONLY when you are comfortable and confident in your ability.

STOP a rep or set at ANY perception of pain that shouldn't be there and SHUT DOWN the workout right then. That pain is simply telling you you need another week to recover, and adapt. Then next workout perfrom an additional warm up set of 20-50 reps with a light load before you attempt the lift again.

Training should be to make you stronger, and fitter, not hobbled and injured.


==Scott==
I used a form of this type training for a while and it produced the best gains I ever had. It was an easy routine to get injured from if you weren't patient and very carefull and I don't have the best patience and I often push to hard to fast so I figured it might not be the best for me at this point in my life hense I am trying slow reps to see if it's safer and as productive.
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RW Hawk

Virgin Islands

fbcoach wrote:
Bio..quick question?
Should you start at your rep maximum or sort of break in with a prepatory stage? Thanks


Are you thinking of giving Rogue HIT a go?

LOL!

You can call him "John." He's always on the lookout for the next Wayne or Pinter.

He'd be elated to finally have a third "student."

Why don't you PM him to get the ball rolling.

Have your credit card ready.
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fbcoach

RW Hawk wrote:
BIO-FORCE wrote:
Train Smart


Heaving weights around the way you do is not smart.

There is literally no good reason to perform an exercise that way.


Don't you think it would be wise to have trained with weights before making such statements?
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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

fbcoach wrote:
Bio..quick question?
Should you start at your rep maximum or sort of break in with a prepatory stage? Thanks


If you're 18 you can start reasonably high, if you're not then the best thing is to start LOW and make sure progression is SLOW.

Progress will actually come quite quickly even only adding a pound or two a week (= 50# - 100# gain in a year)

I mean don't start with baby weights, but do use your head. Eventually you should create tensions and fatigues you have never experienced before, and you have to be totally conditioned for those loads.

This doesn't happen overnite.



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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

fbcoach wrote:
Bio..quick question?
Should you start at your rep maximum or sort of break in with a prepatory stage? Thanks


FB,

I might further add, that in the higher (rep sets 30 20 15 etc) most trainees have never attempted a RM effort, so those will almost naturally be fairly low to start.

However, from 10 reps down, use a little caution and discretion until you feel totally conditioned for the load.

I just started back into a Chest/Back program of Benches and Barbell Rows.

After having fun doing a 100+ Chin and 100+ Dip program for a few months.

My first session I used well over 100# less on the Rows. It won't take long to get it back, but I would be unable to walk if I would have attempted anything close to my best.

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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

RW Hawk wrote:
BIO-FORCE wrote:
Train Smart


Heaving weights around the way you do is not smart.


You must have read my post above.

You are correct. You should never try to train as I do as you have not conditioned yourself for it and would likey injure yourself immediatley.


There is literally no good reason to perform an exercise that way.


I am not sure what you mean by "literally" as that does not make sense, but one should train in a manner that creates the stimulus to the goal of the trainee.

That "literally" means train specifically for the goal.

My conditioning and abilities are a result of that type of training.



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DownUnderLifter

HDLou wrote:
sgb2112 wrote:
It seems that the Renaissance thread has become a bit derailed. A few members have become inquired about Rouge HIT, so they can post questions or thoughts about the method on this thread.

Rouge HIT got much hate mainly because it's chief proponent, Waynes, was intolerable. That and he ended up adding so many sets that he surpassed all IFBB pros in volume.

I have a few questions..

1. Could MedX machines be used for this protocol?

2. Your thoughts on training once per week full body, using an upper body push, pull, and leg press. Using 20/10/5. Sufficient or is a split routine mandatory?



That's nothing more than a knockoff of former Pro Bodybuilder Phil Hernon's training system. He has been using it since the early 90's.


Phil recommends 5/10/15, reducing the weight each set and training each bodypart 2-3 x week.

DUL
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RW Hawk

Virgin Islands

BIO-FORCE wrote:
You must have read my post above.


Are you psychic or just guessing?

BIO-FORCE wrote:
You should never try to train as I do as you have not conditioned yourself for it and would likey injure yourself immediatley.


I use FROM and proper form, which you do not.

And so, I haven't the slightest interest in heaving weights around in an uncontrolled, unsafe, and less productive (vs proper form) manner as you do.
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RW Hawk

Virgin Islands

BIO-FORCE wrote:
My conditioning and abilities are a result of that type of training.


Precisely, which is why you will not take Trentine up on his challenge to video yourself performing exercise on MedX equipment.

He even offered to find a facility for you and pay you for your time!

You'd have to significantly lower the load, and you'd be exposed as the weight tosser that you are.

And don't give me your tired line about form being relative.
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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

RW Hawk wrote:

I use FROM and proper form, which you do not.


Good for you, and that type of training has its limitations and why you could't train as heavy and create the highest forces with that form.



And so, I haven't the slightest interest in heaving weights around in an uncontrolled, unsafe, and less productive (vs proper form) manner as you do.


I doubt anyone really has an interest in what your interests are.

If you have a relevant comment on Anatomy, Physiology, or Biomechanics, then you might garner some interest in your opinion.

There are many ways to create training stimulus, your particular acceptance will not cause that to change.

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fbcoach

BIO-FORCE wrote:
fbcoach wrote:
Bio..quick question?
Should you start at your rep maximum or sort of break in with a prepatory stage? Thanks

FB,

I might further add, that in the higher (rep sets 30 20 15 etc) most trainees have never attempted a RM effort, so those will almost naturally be fairly low to start.

However, from 10 reps down, use a little caution and discretion until you feel totally conditioned for the load.

I just started back into a Chest/Back program of Benches and Barbell Rows.

After having fun doing a 100+ Chin and 100+ Dip program for a few months.

My first session I used well over 100# less on the Rows. It won't take long to get it back, but I would be unable to walk if I would have attempted anything close to my best.



Thanks Bio. I appreciate the info.

Remember....DON'T FEED THE TROLL!! I did, and now he's like a stray cat..only not as smart.
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