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Dan Duchaine: Anyone Heard of this Guy?
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DrFist

so i was reading about this guy and became really skeptical because he wrote so much about pro bbing and nothing on the natural athlete. i really didn't like his approach because he was sacrificing health for performance. i also want to stay natural.

anyway, i've been listening to a series of interviews he did with bill philips before he died. i can't find the link for it.

i've tried to summarise what he said and here's his idea in brief:

"lets take the exercise of the bicep curl. 12 reps seems like the ideal amount to stimulate hypertrophy. you complete 12 reps to failure. then you begin the eccentric (negative) reps. now, instead of taking weight off and keeping the same weight, you ask two training partners to add weight. you then lower the weight for as many reps as possible until complete failure."

anyone else think this sounds like a great idea?

maybe he got it from AJ or MM, i'm not sure.
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BeauMann

Iowa, USA

Wasn't he the author of the underground steroid handbook that came out in the late 70's or early 80's?
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Joshua Trentine

Ohio, USA

DrFist wrote:
so i was reading about this guy and became really skeptical because he wrote so much about pro bbing and nothing on the natural athlete. i really didn't like his approach because he was sacrificing health for performance. i also want to stay natural.

anyway, i've been listening to a series of interviews he did with bill philips before he died. i can't find the link for it.

i've tried to summarise what he said and here's his idea in brief:

"lets take the exercise of the bicep curl. 12 reps seems like the ideal amount to stimulate hypertrophy. you complete 12 reps to failure. then you begin the eccentric (negative) reps. now, instead of taking weight off and keeping the same weight, you ask two training partners to add weight. you then lower the weight for as many reps as possible until complete failure."

anyone else think this sounds like a great idea?

maybe he got it from AJ or MM, i'm not sure.



if your equipment really allowed you to train to failure it wouldn't be possible
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crazeeJZ

You've already pushed yourself in the set to failure. Beyond that just sounds like more volume to me. I think it's good for a periodic change of stimulus, but there seem to be less complicated ways to add more volume than having multiple spotters for it.
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perrymk

Most of these ideas were published in "The Rader Master Bodybuilding and Weightgaining System" by Peary Rader in 1946. He discusses split repetitions, forced reps, rest pause, etc. I don't know that he came up with the ideas, but he published them before anyone else that I am aware of. If anyone knows an earlier reference please share. I enjoy reading old-school stuff, and new stuff.

Check out superstrengthbooks.com for a reprint.


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entsminger

Virginia, USA

DrFist wrote:
so i was reading about this guy and became really skeptical because he wrote so much about pro bbing and nothing on the natural athlete. i really didn't like his approach because he was sacrificing health for performance. i also want to stay natural.

anyway, i've been listening to a series of interviews he did with bill philips before he died. i can't find the link for it.

i've tried to summarise what he said and here's his idea in brief:

"lets take the exercise of the bicep curl. 12 reps seems like the ideal amount to stimulate hypertrophy. you complete 12 reps to failure. then you begin the eccentric (negative) reps. now, instead of taking weight off and keeping the same weight, you ask two training partners to add weight. you then lower the weight for as many reps as possible until complete failure."

anyone else think this sounds like a great idea?

maybe he got it from AJ or MM, i'm not sure.


==Scott==
I would guess that depends on your definition of failure. He said he went to failure on a typical set of 12 reps. I'm assuming failure was when he couldn't perform another rep in good form? If that's all then it would be possible to add weight and then do more reps in only the eccentric manner until you couldn't hold the weight safely, budge the bar, any more. It would be more intense than just the concentric set alone but I would guess it might be so intense it would require a lengthy recovery period?
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noone

New York, USA

Dan was huge in the early 90's. I am kinda of surprised you are asking if we heard of him.

Anyways, he was in Muscle Media every month, wrote "Body Opus" and the steroid handbooks. This diet was no carbs Monday-Friday, the high carbs on the weekend.

He was one of the first people to bring Creatine and whey protein to the scene, along with flax seed oil, and the pro-hormones that became popular 10 years ago. His other diet was 33/33/33 fats/protein/carbs and that became popular for a while. In fact I still eat similar to his recommendations. I think it was called "iso-caloric" or something like that.

He was prominently featured in the book "Steroid Nation." Great book.

He was the most sought out steroid consultants that most of the pro's hired for consulting.

He made a few million selling fake steroids from the late 80's to the mid 90's. He eventually went to prison because his girl-friend at the time told the feds that he had steroids, and they found 1 bottle. He realized it was easier to sell fake stuff, than real stuff.

He had a stroke in prison, which effected his speech, and he started to get out of the spotlight after that.

He was one of my favorite people (can you tell?) that I have encountered since I became interested in lifting over 20 years ago. Some people have labeled him a "scumbag." He was an extremely brilliant guy. He did great things for bodybuilding, and he did horrible things for bodybuilding. He was a fascinating person on many levels.

^Bret

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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Between steroid experimentation and God knows what else, that guy literally wore himself out.

He is/was not a good source to rely on for any advice or ideas --- unless you want to know what NOT to do!
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Lioncourt

I've asked Lyle McDonald about Dan's thoughts on training. He's about as close to an heir to Dan Duchaine as anyone else is. He said that while Dan knew a lot about drugs and nutrition, training for the natural lifter was certainly not his area. Dan definitely wasn't a fan of Mentzer though. In fact I think Dan is the one that started the myth of Mentzer drinking his own urine.

Here is an answer Dan gave in an interview about training:


Duchaine: Yeah, I know, but...I would say that most prohormones are ineffective orally. It would be hard to get a pimple, much less gain muscle, on prohormones. So, yeah, injectable prohormones will get activity. I think natural bodybuilders really have to start training for size, instead of strength. There is a difference between strength, which is neuroadaptation, and size. Your body will find the most efficient way of getting strong. The most efficient way is to neurolly make yourself stronger, because it doesn?t really involve any calories. You don?t have to add muscle, you don?t have to burn more energy. Just contact the mass that you have more violently. I've had a lot of thinking about this. People keep asking me, "who writes a great training book." And they all suck. They really are all wrong, I think. I think the secret is never doing more than one set of anything. I mean, if u do four sets of barbell curls all in a row, every set your adapting because of the same plane of movement. Why don?t u just randomly pick a different exercise everytime you have to do a set for biceps. I'm sure you can find eight or nine different movements or machines to get eight or nine sets and never repeat yourself. The same thing with everything else. On the bench press and the squat, the best bench pressers and squatters don?t necessarily have the best chest or legs.


Here is the full program that the OP was sort of referring to:


May 19th 1995
Guru Body Contract

What you will see here is the "what to do" part. You will not get an explanation on why I have arrived @ this routine. It's much better to get an individual right into the routine and then afterwards, explain it.

Workout Schedule:

Day I : Shoulders, Biceps, Triceps
Day 2 : Legs, Calves, Abs
Day 3 : Rest
Day 4 : Rest
Day 5 : Chest, Back
Day 6 : Rest
Day 7 : Rest
Repeat 7 day plan

As you can see, this schedule fits nicely in a mon/tues/fri arrangement, but you could start the plan at any point, but you would have to workout during the weekend.

Reps, Sets, Poundages:

ALL exercises are adjusted to perform poundages at 70% of max (1RM). In a rested non-depleted individual, it usually means around 12 reps. I should say that the point is to get to 70% rep failure. DO NOT do "mini-pauses", which is resting between reps. The point is to induce short time ATP exhaustion.

At the failure point (around 12 reps) immediately increase the poundage to 85% of max. Now perform 2-3 negative reps. I estimate @ the 85% poundage, the negatives will allow 2 to 3 isochemic mortis eccentrics before you reach full eccentric failure.

You will find that the most productive sets will be the second and third sets of the exercise when the muscle becomes pumped. Isochemic mortis eccentrics work best when the muscle is first pumped. And I can see no reason to perform more sets after three. You will find that with some bodyparts and exercises, once a muscle is pumped from previous exercise, three sets are not needed, but only one for that exercise.

Obviously you will need at least one training partner to help with the eccentrics and move the extra weight in the negative 'positive'. And on leg day, 2 training partners is ideal. Many of these exercises work best when locked into a machine track, although in developing the system I had no access to most machines.

Exercises:

Shoulders - Shoulder press, side lateral, rear laterals, shrugs

Biceps - seated incline hammer curls, ez-curl preacher bench curl

Triceps - pulley cable pushdown with V-bar only, overhead dumbbell extentions, bench or machine dips

Legs* - front or hack squats (3 sets), leg press (1 set), extentions (1 set), stiff legged dead lift (straigh & arched back only), leg curls (1 set)

Calves - standing calve raise (3 sets), seated calve raise (2 sets)

Abs - crunch machine, reverse low incline roll ups

Chest - Incline barbell press (30 degrees), Flat dumbell flyes, V-bar dips or decline barbell press

Back - one arm rows (dumbell of hammer machine), lat pulldown (pull bar to nose/chin area only), Rack dead lifts (half-reps from knees up), dumbbell pullovers (1 set only).

*DO* all exercises in the 12+3 format - NO EXCEPTIONS
*DON'T* add any extra exercises
*DON'T* substitute other exercises
*DO* this routine for three weeks during the month and...
*DON'T* workout for the last week of the month
*DON'T* do more than 1/2 hour of aerobics each day

Dan's Addendum (5/22/95)

Please pass this along. I downloaded the HIT thing and ready it. Wordy bastard, heh? Anyway, a MAJOR point is missed because I should have explained part of my workout system. I feel that most eccentric trauma outside from the isolated isochemic mortis phase should be avoided simply because this general trauma is not only nonproductive, but actually
counterproductive as well.

THIS MEANS that the whole point of the initial concentric set is simply to exhaust short term ATP so that you can arrive at the isochemic mortis point where eccentrics are truly anabolic.

I tried to estimate the tension that would engage the most fibers, that is to say to find the most efficient tension/rep combo. At 70%, reps usually are in the 12 range. The 12 reps are done rapidly, with virtually no accentuation of the eccentric part of the rep. It is important not to do mini-pauses between reps that will replenish ATP. So yes, these would be 'ballistic movements'. Of course using higher reps with lighter weights would eventually exhaust the ATP stores, however, we found that too many reps didn't allow much eccentric strength left over to perform 3 eccentric reps @ 85% or more tension. So unlike *HIT* or *HD*, my system tries to consciously try to avoid the kind of trauma instilled with the 2 second up/4 second down rep scheme.

BTW, rest between sets DOES NOT have to be super short. Ideal rest times involve waiting for the pulse rate to drop back to non-lactic acid clearing zones.

You don't have a high pulse and respiration rate because your body need oxygen but to clear lactic acid. As you can imagine rest between sets can be determined with a heart monitor.

- Dan Duchaine [/quote/

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fbcoach

Dan Duchaine was all about enhancing diet and performance, no matter the cost. He always admitted this, whether positive or negative. He was responsible for much of the extremism in bodybuilding and creating that "new size" in bodybuilders from the 80s and 90s. To his credit, he was one of the first pioneers to actually do the research on performance enhancement drugs, instead of relying on hearsay. And yes, he was the guy that wrote all the books in layman's terms about Performance Enhancement drugs.
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dhitquinn

fbcoach wrote:
Dan Duchaine was all about enhancing diet and performance, no matter the cost. He always admitted this, whether positive or negative. He was responsible for much of the extremism in bodybuilding and creating that "new size" in bodybuilders from the 80s and 90s. To his credit, he was one of the first pioneers to actually do the research on performance enhancement drugs, instead of relying on hearsay. And yes, he was the guy that wrote all the books in layman's terms about Performance Enhancement drugs.


Exactly coach

he tried and tested his methods he didnt give opinions on subjects which he had no personal experience on unlike a lot of so called 'experts' out there
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DrFist

lioncourt is exactly right.

what does everyone think of it?

i'll try it tomorrow.
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DrFist

has anyone tried his nutritional diets?
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krazy kaju

There's another thread on this forum about CKD...
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Lioncourt

DrFist wrote:
has anyone tried his nutritional diets?


The Bodyopus was an effective diet for its time. Lyle McDonald has written an updated version of it in the Ultimate Diet 2.0. It's an extremely effective diet for someone trying to get extremely lean and is already sub-15% bodyfat.
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fbcoach

Lioncourt wrote:
DrFist wrote:
has anyone tried his nutritional diets?

The Bodyopus was an effective diet for its time. Lyle McDonald has written an updated version of it in the Ultimate Diet 2.0. It's an extremely effective diet for someone trying to get extremely lean and is already sub-15% bodyfat.


I used it for a competition decades ago. It works, but is extremely hard to follow. It is similar to what Gerry is doing. I also used Dr. DiPasquale's "Anabolic Diet" with success. Manipulating carbs and calories also works. I have some Bodybuilding Competition pics on BB.com under my username. This particular contest, I just manipulated carbs and calories.
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gerry-hitman

fbcoach wrote:
Lioncourt wrote:
DrFist wrote:
has anyone tried his nutritional diets?

The Bodyopus was an effective diet for its time. Lyle McDonald has written an updated version of it in the Ultimate Diet 2.0. It's an extremely effective diet for someone trying to get extremely lean and is already sub-15% bodyfat.

I used it for a competition decades ago. It works, but is extremely hard to follow. It is similar to what Gerry is doing. I also used Dr. DiPasquale's "Anabolic Diet" with success. Manipulating carbs and calories also works. I have some Bodybuilding Competition pics on BB.com under my username. This particular contest, I just manipulated carbs and calories.


I read somewhere that he and DR. D.P where coming to the same conclusions about the diet at the same time even though they never discussed it together.
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gerry-hitman

fbcoach wrote:
Lioncourt wrote:
DrFist wrote:
has anyone tried his nutritional diets?

The Bodyopus was an effective diet for its time. Lyle McDonald has written an updated version of it in the Ultimate Diet 2.0. It's an extremely effective diet for someone trying to get extremely lean and is already sub-15% bodyfat.

I used it for a competition decades ago. It works, but is extremely hard to follow. It is similar to what Gerry is doing. I also used Dr. DiPasquale's "Anabolic Diet" with success. Manipulating carbs and calories also works. I have some Bodybuilding Competition pics on BB.com under my username. This particular contest, I just manipulated carbs and calories.


Also...although I agree it is difficult to stay on but only for a period of time...the longer you do it the "easier" it gets.

Then you get to a point where if you were to come off it and go back to the daily higher carb approach, you would find that you want to go back...happened that way for me..

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Tony Williams

Will there ever be an end to the number of "ultimate" diets?

Tony
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Tony Williams

Duchanine was imprisoned twice on drug-related charges.

He could not seem to learn his lesson.

Tony
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jastrain

Tony Williams wrote:
Will there ever be an end to the number of "ultimate" diets?

Tony


the low carb diet isn't really a diet per se. it is simply about making healthy choices every day. your body can process lean meats, and green veggies, efficiently. the carbs/sugars,corn starch, is in everything. our food source in america is loaded with refined carbs. the body can not handle this over time. the obesity rate in this country has been skyrocketing over the last decade. i never had a weight issue most of my life but from age 33 to 43 my weight climbed significantly. i went from the 180s to 248lbs. and i really wasnt even gorging myself. it was getting scary. then, i thought, i would try the "low carb lifestyle" and in the 1st year i went from 248lbs to 165lbs completely ripped, and i gained strength/muscle. i have been doing pretty much the same hit training for 30 years. so, to actually go up in strength at age 44 was a shock to me. i lost most of my fat and gained muscle at 44 years old!!! the light switch came on. i actually, eat more now, than i did on the high carb diet. the lean meats, and green veggies are so nutrient dense that they feed the muscle but they are actually low in cals. a pound of chicken is like 400 cals. so when you eat that along with a big salad you are getting a ton of nutrients yet the caloric intake is very reasonable. after two years i have kept the weight off. i am not fanatical about this diet at this point. i do allow myself periods of time where i eat plenty of refined carbs [junk] but then i pull it back in and not let it go too out of control. my weight now, stays at 170-175, and i eat junk 1 or 2 days per week. it is not a struggle, i am never hungry, and after a couple days of junk i actually, look forward to eating healthy again [low carb]. on the low carb you have more energy, no bloating, and i generally, feel stronger. also, i use to get heart burn often. on the low carb diet i never, ever,i get heart burn. i don't view the "low carb diet" at this point in time, as a diet. i really think it is the proper way to eat. try it for six months--strictly. no sugar, carbs. you will see that the fat will melt, and you will gain strength. it is simply amazing. the initial change to low carb is hard --very hard the 1st 2-3 weeks. you will lack energy , your body will actually, go through a withdrawal from the refined carbs. but, then, after 2-3 weeks it is like a switch goes on and --bam-- you will have more energy than you ever had in your life. after 3 weeks you have energy, no hunger,but you may still crave the carbs but this will fade pretty quickly after 3 weeks. stay with it and after 6 months you learn how to make healthy choices and you will want to eat this way for the rest of your life. you will learn when you can have your treats [refined carbs]. and you will know what treats are. anything that turns to sugar. the obvious cake,cookies candy soda, and the less obvious bread, pasta, and most sauces and all processed foods, these are all the same thing--they are treats/deserts. they are to be eaten in moderation occasionally and most certainly not every meal. these things will only make you ravenously hungary by spiking the insulin levels.
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Tony Williams

jastrain wrote:
Tony Williams wrote:
Will there ever be an end to the number of "ultimate" diets?

Tony

the low carb diet isn't really a diet per se. it is simply about making healthy choices every day. your body can process lean meats, and green veggies, efficiently. the carbs/sugars,corn starch, is in everything. our food source in america is loaded with refined carbs. the body can not handle this over time. the obesity rate in this country has been skyrocketing over the last decade. i never had a weight issue most of my life but from age 33 to 43 my weight climbed significantly. i went from the 180s to 248lbs. and i really wasnt even gorging myself. it was getting scary. then, i thought, i would try the "low carb lifestyle" and in the 1st year i went from 248lbs to 165lbs completely ripped, and i gained strength/muscle. i have been doing pretty much the same hit training for 30 years. so, to actually go up in strength at age 44 was a shock to me. i lost most of my fat and gained muscle at 44 years old!!! the light switch came on. i actually, eat more now, than i did on the high carb diet. the lean meats, and green veggies are so nutrient dense that they feed the muscle but they are actually low in cals. a pound of chicken is like 400 cals. so when you eat that along with a big salad you are getting a ton of nutrients yet the caloric intake is very reasonable. after two years i have kept the weight off. i am not fanatical about this diet at this point. i do allow myself periods of time where i eat plenty of refined carbs [junk] but then i pull it back in and not let it go too out of control. my weight now, stays at 170-175, and i eat junk 1 or 2 days per week. it is not a struggle, i am never hungry, and after a couple days of junk i actually, look forward to eating healthy again [low carb]. on the low carb you have more energy, no bloating, and i generally, feel stronger. also, i use to get heart burn often. on the low carb diet i never, ever,i get heart burn. i don't view the "low carb diet" at this point in time, as a diet. i really think it is the proper way to eat. try it for six months--strictly. no sugar, carbs. you will see that the fat will melt, and you will gain strength. it is simply amazing. the initial change to low carb is hard --very hard the 1st 2-3 weeks. you will lack energy , your body will actually, go through a withdrawal from the refined carbs. but, then, after 2-3 weeks it is like a switch goes on and --bam-- you will have more energy than you ever had in your life. after 3 weeks you have energy, no hunger,but you may still crave the carbs but this will fade pretty quickly after 3 weeks. stay with it and after 6 months you learn how to make healthy choices and you will want to eat this way for the rest of your life. you will learn when you can have your treats [refined carbs]. and you will know what treats are. anything that turns to sugar. the obvious cake,cookies candy soda, and the less obvious bread, pasta, and most sauces and all processed foods, these are all the same thing--they are treats/deserts. they are to be eaten in moderation occasionally and most certainly not every meal. these things will only make you ravenously hungary by spiking the insulin levels.


Well, people sometimes object to the word "diet".

Call it eating plan or whatever you wish. It's still the same thing.

Tony
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RW Hawk

Virgin Islands

fbcoach wrote:
I have some Bodybuilding Competition pics on BB.com under my username.


LOL, you entered one fly-by-night contest over twenty years ago and you admit you juiced for it.

You looked horrible vs today's standards. Smooth and no "pop" to your muscles.

You got laughed at over there (bb.com) on two different threads when you tried to claim they were your Mentzer HD before/after pics.

It was shortly after that when you turned against HIT and started calling it a marketing scam.

You currently have a beer gut and fatceps, as evidenced by your pic on the work-related site.

You haven't been in reasonable shape in YEARS.

Good luck on your RogueHIT experiment.

I predict it will end like everything else you try. (LOL)
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Tony Williams

Was Duchaine a scumbag?

Certainly.

What else would you call a two-time, convicted felon?

Tony
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Tony Williams

Was Duchaine a scumbag?

Certainly.

What else would you call a two-time, convicted felon?

Tony
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