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Eat Frozen Fish Raw?
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larsvonthreat

Hi to all,especially raw foodist.
The title says it all,
I'd like to know if you think eating frozen fish(tuna,salmon)raw is safe?


Thanks for your answers.
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southbeach

shouldn't thaw it out first :o
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krazy kaju

Freezing already takes away from the nutritional value of the food. If you're gonna freeze it, might as well cook it.
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larsvonthreat

What about sushi?I thought the fish were frozen in order to eliminate some harmful bacteria.

Open User Options Menu

Tomislav

New York, USA

larsvonthreat wrote:
What about sushi?I thought the fish were frozen in order to eliminate some harmful bacteria.



larsvonthreat,
sushi chef's have special training to safely prepare the raw fish which may be a factor. Another one is that the wasabi and ginger are supposed to be consumed with the sushi in order to kill potential bugs as well as for taste.

Open User Options Menu

smanjh

Anyone scared to eat store bought fish, or any in general since the nuclear disaster in Japan or Oil spill in the Gulf?

(I am not, but a friend of mine brought this up awhile back and I wonder what you guys think)
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DNAHelix

New York, USA

Well, one thing that is prevalent in the nations consuming uncooked fish is colon parasites, that is what I know about it, same goes for raw beef and other stuff.
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Joshua Trentine

Ohio, USA

kulitsa wrote:
Well, one thing that is prevalent in the nations consuming uncooked fish is colon parasites, that is what I know about it, same goes for raw beef and other stuff.



tall tales
Open User Options Menu

eintology

California, USA


Oil spill in the Gulf?


... resulting from Tomislav cleaning out his blender?
Open User Options Menu

Tomislav

New York, USA

Joshua Trentine wrote:
kulitsa wrote:
Well, one thing that is prevalent in the nations consuming uncooked fish is colon parasites, that is what I know about it, same goes for raw beef and other stuff.

tall tales

Agree; healthy gut bacteria kills these things - along those lines it's also a good idea to eat the wasabi and ginger with sushi, particularly so if you don't have enough nanomites.

Anyone who likes sushi may want to also try Gui-Tataki; thin slices of raw beef that taste great.
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Tomislav

New York, USA

eintology wrote:
... resulting from Tomislav cleaning out his blender?


LOL! My vortex blender cleans itself; you ever get serious about blending you'll understand ;)
Open User Options Menu

southbeach

Tomislav wrote:
eintology wrote:
... resulting from Tomislav cleaning out his blender?

LOL! My vortex blender cleans itself; you ever get serious about blending you'll understand ;)


high rpm blenders create so much heat at the molecular level they destroy individual nutrient. (look it up if you don't believe that!)

high heat is enemy of nutrition! why do you think they say "DON'T BOIL your veggies"! eek

low rpm grinders best to preserve nutrients

Open User Options Menu

fishoil

Hey guys,

I am Food Inspector.
I am Seafood HACCP Certified and I am also a Seafood HACCP Instructor.

Eating raw fish with no parasite hazard and not temperature abused is fine as long as the outer surface is properly washed and or treated to eliminate surface pathogens.

Eating raw fish containing parasites that was not frozen with a specific regimen to kill parasites is playing with fire. Normally the fish needs to be hard frozen at -4F and held there for 7 days.

There are other issues associated with raw or cooked fish that has to be dealt with. Histamines otherwise known as scombrotoxin is found in tunas and other species and when developed ( develops due to temperature abuse) cannot be eliminated and can cause immediate illness in those susceptible to scombrotoxin.

Sushi chefs for the most part do not get specialized training in preparing sushi. Many sushi chefs don't even know about proper freezing regimens for the fish that they serve. They hope that is was handled at the supplier that they buy it from hope for the best.

I do eat sushi on occasion and know what species to order and how to order it.

Most fish when not thinking of parasites are predominately sterile within the flesh. The pathogen issues mostly come from improper handling and inadequate sanitation. TEMPERATURE ABUSE is the one of the critical factors here. If you buy fish from a fish market, it has to be fresh, not smelly, on ice and be brought home on ice and be kept on ice in the fridge. Scombrotoxin forming species need to be held 40F or less.
I have dealt with plenty of food borne illness investigations, outbreaks, recalls, etc. Be careful with what you do with raw food.

BTW the ginger and wasabi and other ingredients that are thought to (KILL) microorganisms do offer a lethality but the time frame is the question. Pathogenic lethality sometimes takes a very long time. Proper cooking will offer instantaneous death often with a 5-6 log or more death rate. Natural ingredients might offer a significantly less lethality.

When looking at food borne illnesses at the lethality level, 99.999% is the minimum required most of the time. That doesn't leave much room for error.

Proper handwashing (a rarity) offers a 99.9% reduction of pathogens at best.

Don't beat me up for this, I am just supplying factual info.

Open User Options Menu

Tomislav

New York, USA

southbeach wrote:
Tomislav wrote:
eintology wrote:
... resulting from Tomislav cleaning out his blender?

LOL! My vortex blender cleans itself; you ever get serious about blending you'll understand ;)


high rpm blenders create so much heat at the molecular level they destroy individual nutrient. (look it up if you don't believe that!)

high heat is enemy of nutrition! why do you think they say "DON'T BOIL your veggies"! eek

low rpm grinders best to preserve nutrients


southbeach,
you missed my response on the serious blending thread; my vortex blender uses a controlled vortex to blend high viscosity fluids like eggs, milk, cream and honey.

There are no blades in my blender, it uses a vortex; that's why it's a vortex blender. Picture a controlled tornado, a twister whirling around the confines of a polished steel mixing chamber.

You want to digest the cellulose from leafy greens, invest in a Blendtec friction blender - the manufacturer claims it minces cellulose so finely that you can digest more of your leafy greens, just like a cow. But if you want frictionless eggs, my vortex blender is the perfect machine; there are no blades, no friction and hence no heat.
Open User Options Menu

Tomislav

New York, USA

fishoil wrote:
Hey guys,

I am Food Inspector.
I am Seafood HACCP Certified and I am also a Seafood HACCP Instructor.

Eating raw fish with no parasite hazard and not temperature abused is fine as long as the outer surface is properly washed and or treated to eliminate surface pathogens.

Eating raw fish containing parasites that was not frozen with a specific regimen to kill parasites is playing with fire. Normally the fish needs to be hard frozen at -4F and held there for 7 days.

There are other issues associated with raw or cooked fish that has to be dealt with. Histamines otherwise known as scombrotoxin is found in tunas and other species and when developed ( develops due to temperature abuse) cannot be eliminated and can cause immediate illness in those susceptible to scombrotoxin.

Sushi chefs for the most part do not get specialized training in preparing sushi. Many sushi chefs don't even know about proper freezing regimens for the fish that they serve. They hope that is was handled at the supplier that they buy it from hope for the best.

I do eat sushi on occasion and know what species to order and how to order it.

Most fish when not thinking of parasites are predominately sterile within the flesh. The pathogen issues mostly come from improper handling and inadequate sanitation. TEMPERATURE ABUSE is the one of the critical factors here. If you buy fish from a fish market, it has to be fresh, not smelly, on ice and be brought home on ice and be kept on ice in the fridge. Scombrotoxin forming species need to be held 40F or less.
I have dealt with plenty of food borne illness investigations, outbreaks, recalls, etc. Be careful with what you do with raw food.

BTW the ginger and wasabi and other ingredients that are thought to (KILL) microorganisms do offer a lethality but the time frame is the question. Pathogenic lethality sometimes takes a very long time. Proper cooking will offer instantaneous death often with a 5-6 log or more death rate. Natural ingredients might offer a significantly less lethality.

When looking at food borne illnesses at the lethality level, 99.999% is the minimum required most of the time. That doesn't leave much room for error.

Proper handwashing (a rarity) offers a 99.9% reduction of pathogens at best.

Don't beat me up for this, I am just supplying factual info.



fishoil,
what role do you imagine (if any) gut bacteria plays in mitigating these dangers?
Open User Options Menu

southbeach

Tomislav wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Tomislav wrote:
eintology wrote:
... resulting from Tomislav cleaning out his blender?

LOL! My vortex blender cleans itself; you ever get serious about blending you'll understand ;)


high rpm blenders create so much heat at the molecular level they destroy individual nutrient. (look it up if you don't believe that!)

high heat is enemy of nutrition! why do you think they say "DON'T BOIL your veggies"! eek

low rpm grinders best to preserve nutrients


southbeach,
you missed my response on the serious blending thread; my vortex blender uses a controlled vortex to blend high viscosity fluids like eggs, milk, cream and honey.

There are no blades in my blender, it uses a vortex; that's why it's a vortex blender. Picture a controlled tornado, a twister whirling around the confines of a polished steel mixing chamber.

You want to digest the cellulose from leafy greens, invest in a Blendtec friction blender - the manufacturer claims it minces cellulose so finely that you can digest more of your leafy greens, just like a cow. But if you want frictionless eggs, my vortex blender is the perfect machine; there are no blades, no friction and hence no heat.


Ah, ok. I stand corrected. I think this first time i learn something from you, thank you :)
Open User Options Menu

fishoil

Tomislav wrote:
fishoil wrote:
Hey guys,

I am Food Inspector.
I am Seafood HACCP Certified and I am also a Seafood HACCP Instructor.

Eating raw fish with no parasite hazard and not temperature abused is fine as long as the outer surface is properly washed and or treated to eliminate surface pathogens.

Eating raw fish containing parasites that was not frozen with a specific regimen to kill parasites is playing with fire. Normally the fish needs to be hard frozen at -4F and held there for 7 days.

There are other issues associated with raw or cooked fish that has to be dealt with. Histamines otherwise known as scombrotoxin is found in tunas and other species and when developed ( develops due to temperature abuse) cannot be eliminated and can cause immediate illness in those susceptible to scombrotoxin.

Sushi chefs for the most part do not get specialized training in preparing sushi. Many sushi chefs don't even know about proper freezing regimens for the fish that they serve. They hope that is was handled at the supplier that they buy it from hope for the best.

I do eat sushi on occasion and know what species to order and how to order it.

Most fish when not thinking of parasites are predominately sterile within the flesh. The pathogen issues mostly come from improper handling and inadequate sanitation. TEMPERATURE ABUSE is the one of the critical factors here. If you buy fish from a fish market, it has to be fresh, not smelly, on ice and be brought home on ice and be kept on ice in the fridge. Scombrotoxin forming species need to be held 40F or less.
I have dealt with plenty of food borne illness investigations, outbreaks, recalls, etc. Be careful with what you do with raw food.

BTW the ginger and wasabi and other ingredients that are thought to (KILL) microorganisms do offer a lethality but the time frame is the question. Pathogenic lethality sometimes takes a very long time. Proper cooking will offer instantaneous death often with a 5-6 log or more death rate. Natural ingredients might offer a significantly less lethality.

When looking at food borne illnesses at the lethality level, 99.999% is the minimum required most of the time. That doesn't leave much room for error.

Proper handwashing (a rarity) offers a 99.9% reduction of pathogens at best.

Don't beat me up for this, I am just supplying factual info.



fishoil,
what role do you imagine (if any) gut bacteria plays in mitigating these dangers?


Gut bacteria does play a part but if gut bacteria handles all of this, there would be no food borne illnesses and I would not have a job.
This about gut bacteria and competition. Was your food temperature abused to allow for significant bacteria growth that will overload your gut bacteria? Take a look at E Coli 0157H7, it has an infection rate of 1 cell, get a few cells things can get out of hand.

How about the people who get bovine tuberculosis from drinking raw milk???
Open User Options Menu

Tomislav

New York, USA

fishoil wrote:
Tomislav wrote:
fishoil wrote:
Hey guys,

I am Food Inspector.
I am Seafood HACCP Certified and I am also a Seafood HACCP Instructor.

Eating raw fish with no parasite hazard and not temperature abused is fine as long as the outer surface is properly washed and or treated to eliminate surface pathogens.

Eating raw fish containing parasites that was not frozen with a specific regimen to kill parasites is playing with fire. Normally the fish needs to be hard frozen at -4F and held there for 7 days.

There are other issues associated with raw or cooked fish that has to be dealt with. Histamines otherwise known as scombrotoxin is found in tunas and other species and when developed ( develops due to temperature abuse) cannot be eliminated and can cause immediate illness in those susceptible to scombrotoxin.

Sushi chefs for the most part do not get specialized training in preparing sushi. Many sushi chefs don't even know about proper freezing regimens for the fish that they serve. They hope that is was handled at the supplier that they buy it from hope for the best.

I do eat sushi on occasion and know what species to order and how to order it.

Most fish when not thinking of parasites are predominately sterile within the flesh. The pathogen issues mostly come from improper handling and inadequate sanitation. TEMPERATURE ABUSE is the one of the critical factors here. If you buy fish from a fish market, it has to be fresh, not smelly, on ice and be brought home on ice and be kept on ice in the fridge. Scombrotoxin forming species need to be held 40F or less.
I have dealt with plenty of food borne illness investigations, outbreaks, recalls, etc. Be careful with what you do with raw food.

BTW the ginger and wasabi and other ingredients that are thought to (KILL) microorganisms do offer a lethality but the time frame is the question. Pathogenic lethality sometimes takes a very long time. Proper cooking will offer instantaneous death often with a 5-6 log or more death rate. Natural ingredients might offer a significantly less lethality.

When looking at food borne illnesses at the lethality level, 99.999% is the minimum required most of the time. That doesn't leave much room for error.

Proper handwashing (a rarity) offers a 99.9% reduction of pathogens at best.

Don't beat me up for this, I am just supplying factual info.



fishoil,
what role do you imagine (if any) gut bacteria plays in mitigating these dangers?

Gut bacteria does play a part but if gut bacteria handles all of this, there would be no food borne illnesses and I would not have a job.
This about gut bacteria and competition. Was your food temperature abused to allow for significant bacteria growth that will overload your gut bacteria? Take a look at E Coli 0157H7, it has an infection rate of 1 cell, get a few cells things can get out of hand.

How about the people who get bovine tuberculosis from drinking raw milk???


fishoil,
that's a red herring; almost nobody healthy gets tb, that is why it is classified as an OI. Bovine tuberculosis from drinking raw milk is absurd because it would have to compete with the benign flora already present - when a batch of yogurt is contaminated they just wait an hour or two and test it again, it cleans itself, destroys the pathogens.

In the contrived test you described, the raw milk must be tested for the pathogen immediately after the researcher adds it for that same reason - pathogens don't survive long in raw milk. Alternately, for a less contrived study the researcher could contaminate pasteurized milk and then they could leisurely perform the test without having to rush since it wouldn't decontaminate itself as well.

Regarding the E Coli there are myrid strains of gut bacteria that work together in synergy to obliterate it; seems to me a question of how many nanomites and how many varieties an individual has cultivated that is the issue here. Collectively, the benign flora is considered an organ in terms of it's diverse function and a healthy gut is immune to E Coli and salmonella.

Your thinking is wrong; instead of worrying about consuming "dangerous" bacteria, consider that walking around without a gut full of healthy bacteria is akin to walking around without a vital digestive organ.

I think if an individual wishes to make themselves weak and susceptible to illness like that so they can only subsist on sterile lifeless (nutritionless) food, it's their choice and you agree; yet you feel entitled to suggest we shouldn't be able to choose to drink raw milk and other sources of benign flora. Again, because your thinking is wrong.
Open User Options Menu

Joshua Trentine

Ohio, USA

Tomislav wrote:
fishoil wrote:
Tomislav wrote:
fishoil wrote:
Hey guys,

I am Food Inspector.
I am Seafood HACCP Certified and I am also a Seafood HACCP Instructor.

Eating raw fish with no parasite hazard and not temperature abused is fine as long as the outer surface is properly washed and or treated to eliminate surface pathogens.

Eating raw fish containing parasites that was not frozen with a specific regimen to kill parasites is playing with fire. Normally the fish needs to be hard frozen at -4F and held there for 7 days.

There are other issues associated with raw or cooked fish that has to be dealt with. Histamines otherwise known as scombrotoxin is found in tunas and other species and when developed ( develops due to temperature abuse) cannot be eliminated and can cause immediate illness in those susceptible to scombrotoxin.

Sushi chefs for the most part do not get specialized training in preparing sushi. Many sushi chefs don't even know about proper freezing regimens for the fish that they serve. They hope that is was handled at the supplier that they buy it from hope for the best.

I do eat sushi on occasion and know what species to order and how to order it.

Most fish when not thinking of parasites are predominately sterile within the flesh. The pathogen issues mostly come from improper handling and inadequate sanitation. TEMPERATURE ABUSE is the one of the critical factors here. If you buy fish from a fish market, it has to be fresh, not smelly, on ice and be brought home on ice and be kept on ice in the fridge. Scombrotoxin forming species need to be held 40F or less.
I have dealt with plenty of food borne illness investigations, outbreaks, recalls, etc. Be careful with what you do with raw food.

BTW the ginger and wasabi and other ingredients that are thought to (KILL) microorganisms do offer a lethality but the time frame is the question. Pathogenic lethality sometimes takes a very long time. Proper cooking will offer instantaneous death often with a 5-6 log or more death rate. Natural ingredients might offer a significantly less lethality.

When looking at food borne illnesses at the lethality level, 99.999% is the minimum required most of the time. That doesn't leave much room for error.

Proper handwashing (a rarity) offers a 99.9% reduction of pathogens at best.

Don't beat me up for this, I am just supplying factual info.



fishoil,
what role do you imagine (if any) gut bacteria plays in mitigating these dangers?

Gut bacteria does play a part but if gut bacteria handles all of this, there would be no food borne illnesses and I would not have a job.
This about gut bacteria and competition. Was your food temperature abused to allow for significant bacteria growth that will overload your gut bacteria? Take a look at E Coli 0157H7, it has an infection rate of 1 cell, get a few cells things can get out of hand.

How about the people who get bovine tuberculosis from drinking raw milk???

fishoil,
that's a red herring; almost nobody healthy gets tb, that is why it is classified as an OI. Bovine tuberculosis from drinking raw milk is absurd because it would have to compete with the benign flora already present - when a batch of yogurt is contaminated they just wait an hour or two and test it again, it cleans itself, destroys the pathogens.

In the contrived test you described, the raw milk must be tested for the pathogen immediately after the researcher adds it for that same reason - pathogens don't survive long in raw milk. Alternately, for a less contrived study the researcher could contaminate pasteurized milk and then they could leisurely perform the test without having to rush since it wouldn't decontaminate itself as well.

Regarding the E Coli there are myrid strains of gut bacteria that work together in synergy to obliterate it; seems to me a question of how many nanomites and how many varieties an individual has cultivated that is the issue here. Collectively, the benign flora is considered an organ in terms of it's diverse function and a healthy gut is immune to E Coli and salmonella.

Your thinking is wrong; instead of worrying about consuming "dangerous" bacteria, consider that walking around without a gut full of healthy bacteria is akin to walking around without a vital digestive organ.

I think if an individual wishes to make themselves weak and susceptible to illness like that so they can only subsist on sterile lifeless (nutritionless) food, it's their choice and you agree; yet you feel entitled to suggest we shouldn't be able to choose to drink raw milk and other sources of benign flora. Again, because your thinking is wrong.



my favorite Tomi post to date ;-)
Open User Options Menu

Joshua Trentine

Ohio, USA

fishoil wrote:
Tomislav wrote:
fishoil wrote:
Hey guys,

I am Food Inspector.
I am Seafood HACCP Certified and I am also a Seafood HACCP Instructor.

Eating raw fish with no parasite hazard and not temperature abused is fine as long as the outer surface is properly washed and or treated to eliminate surface pathogens.

Eating raw fish containing parasites that was not frozen with a specific regimen to kill parasites is playing with fire. Normally the fish needs to be hard frozen at -4F and held there for 7 days.

There are other issues associated with raw or cooked fish that has to be dealt with. Histamines otherwise known as scombrotoxin is found in tunas and other species and when developed ( develops due to temperature abuse) cannot be eliminated and can cause immediate illness in those susceptible to scombrotoxin.

Sushi chefs for the most part do not get specialized training in preparing sushi. Many sushi chefs don't even know about proper freezing regimens for the fish that they serve. They hope that is was handled at the supplier that they buy it from hope for the best.

I do eat sushi on occasion and know what species to order and how to order it.

Most fish when not thinking of parasites are predominately sterile within the flesh. The pathogen issues mostly come from improper handling and inadequate sanitation. TEMPERATURE ABUSE is the one of the critical factors here. If you buy fish from a fish market, it has to be fresh, not smelly, on ice and be brought home on ice and be kept on ice in the fridge. Scombrotoxin forming species need to be held 40F or less.
I have dealt with plenty of food borne illness investigations, outbreaks, recalls, etc. Be careful with what you do with raw food.

BTW the ginger and wasabi and other ingredients that are thought to (KILL) microorganisms do offer a lethality but the time frame is the question. Pathogenic lethality sometimes takes a very long time. Proper cooking will offer instantaneous death often with a 5-6 log or more death rate. Natural ingredients might offer a significantly less lethality.

When looking at food borne illnesses at the lethality level, 99.999% is the minimum required most of the time. That doesn't leave much room for error.

Proper handwashing (a rarity) offers a 99.9% reduction of pathogens at best.

Don't beat me up for this, I am just supplying factual info.



fishoil,
what role do you imagine (if any) gut bacteria plays in mitigating these dangers?

Gut bacteria does play a part but if gut bacteria handles all of this, there would be no food borne illnesses and I would not have a job.
This about gut bacteria and competition. Was your food temperature abused to allow for significant bacteria growth that will overload your gut bacteria? Take a look at E Coli 0157H7, it has an infection rate of 1 cell, get a few cells things can get out of hand.

How about the people who get bovine tuberculosis from drinking raw milk???


Randy Roach and I have put ALL of this to sleep between the radio shows and the info products.

Anyone who has ANY question about this...we've covered it all multiple times
Open User Options Menu

fishoil

Tomislav wrote:
fishoil wrote:
Tomislav wrote:
fishoil wrote:
Hey guys,

I am Food Inspector.
I am Seafood HACCP Certified and I am also a Seafood HACCP Instructor.

Eating raw fish with no parasite hazard and not temperature abused is fine as long as the outer surface is properly washed and or treated to eliminate surface pathogens.

Eating raw fish containing parasites that was not frozen with a specific regimen to kill parasites is playing with fire. Normally the fish needs to be hard frozen at -4F and held there for 7 days.

There are other issues associated with raw or cooked fish that has to be dealt with. Histamines otherwise known as scombrotoxin is found in tunas and other species and when developed ( develops due to temperature abuse) cannot be eliminated and can cause immediate illness in those susceptible to scombrotoxin.

Sushi chefs for the most part do not get specialized training in preparing sushi. Many sushi chefs don't even know about proper freezing regimens for the fish that they serve. They hope that is was handled at the supplier that they buy it from hope for the best.

I do eat sushi on occasion and know what species to order and how to order it.

Most fish when not thinking of parasites are predominately sterile within the flesh. The pathogen issues mostly come from improper handling and inadequate sanitation. TEMPERATURE ABUSE is the one of the critical factors here. If you buy fish from a fish market, it has to be fresh, not smelly, on ice and be brought home on ice and be kept on ice in the fridge. Scombrotoxin forming species need to be held 40F or less.
I have dealt with plenty of food borne illness investigations, outbreaks, recalls, etc. Be careful with what you do with raw food.

BTW the ginger and wasabi and other ingredients that are thought to (KILL) microorganisms do offer a lethality but the time frame is the question. Pathogenic lethality sometimes takes a very long time. Proper cooking will offer instantaneous death often with a 5-6 log or more death rate. Natural ingredients might offer a significantly less lethality.

When looking at food borne illnesses at the lethality level, 99.999% is the minimum required most of the time. That doesn't leave much room for error.

Proper handwashing (a rarity) offers a 99.9% reduction of pathogens at best.

Don't beat me up for this, I am just supplying factual info.



fishoil,
what role do you imagine (if any) gut bacteria plays in mitigating these dangers?

Gut bacteria does play a part but if gut bacteria handles all of this, there would be no food borne illnesses and I would not have a job.
This about gut bacteria and competition. Was your food temperature abused to allow for significant bacteria growth that will overload your gut bacteria? Take a look at E Coli 0157H7, it has an infection rate of 1 cell, get a few cells things can get out of hand.

How about the people who get bovine tuberculosis from drinking raw milk???

fishoil,
that's a red herring; almost nobody healthy gets tb, that is why it is classified as an OI. Bovine tuberculosis from drinking raw milk is absurd because it would have to compete with the benign flora already present - when a batch of yogurt is contaminated they just wait an hour or two and test it again, it cleans itself, destroys the pathogens.

In the contrived test you described, the raw milk must be tested for the pathogen immediately after the researcher adds it for that same reason - pathogens don't survive long in raw milk. Alternately, for a less contrived study the researcher could contaminate pasteurized milk and then they could leisurely perform the test without having to rush since it wouldn't decontaminate itself as well.

Regarding the E Coli there are myrid strains of gut bacteria that work together in synergy to obliterate it; seems to me a question of how many nanomites and how many varieties an individual has cultivated that is the issue here. Collectively, the benign flora is considered an organ in terms of it's diverse function and a healthy gut is immune to E Coli and salmonella.

Your thinking is wrong; instead of worrying about consuming "dangerous" bacteria, consider that walking around without a gut full of healthy bacteria is akin to walking around without a vital digestive organ.

I think if an individual wishes to make themselves weak and susceptible to illness like that so they can only subsist on sterile lifeless (nutritionless) food, it's their choice and you agree; yet you feel entitled to suggest we shouldn't be able to choose to drink raw milk and other sources of benign flora. Again, because your thinking is wrong.


Maybe you guys should get more involved with foodborne illness investigations and spend 10 years conducting food inspection, taking food samples for lab analysis, etc. Your thinking would drastically change forever....
If pathogens don't live long in raw milk, why are pathogens found in raw milk then???

There is merit to some of what you guys are talking about but there are too many dangerous variables that you have no control of before you get your food.
Open User Options Menu

Tomislav

New York, USA

fishoil wrote:
Tomislav wrote:
fishoil wrote:
Tomislav wrote:
fishoil wrote:
Hey guys,

I am Food Inspector.
I am Seafood HACCP Certified and I am also a Seafood HACCP Instructor.

Eating raw fish with no parasite hazard and not temperature abused is fine as long as the outer surface is properly washed and or treated to eliminate surface pathogens.

Eating raw fish containing parasites that was not frozen with a specific regimen to kill parasites is playing with fire. Normally the fish needs to be hard frozen at -4F and held there for 7 days.

There are other issues associated with raw or cooked fish that has to be dealt with. Histamines otherwise known as scombrotoxin is found in tunas and other species and when developed ( develops due to temperature abuse) cannot be eliminated and can cause immediate illness in those susceptible to scombrotoxin.

Sushi chefs for the most part do not get specialized training in preparing sushi. Many sushi chefs don't even know about proper freezing regimens for the fish that they serve. They hope that is was handled at the supplier that they buy it from hope for the best.

I do eat sushi on occasion and know what species to order and how to order it.

Most fish when not thinking of parasites are predominately sterile within the flesh. The pathogen issues mostly come from improper handling and inadequate sanitation. TEMPERATURE ABUSE is the one of the critical factors here. If you buy fish from a fish market, it has to be fresh, not smelly, on ice and be brought home on ice and be kept on ice in the fridge. Scombrotoxin forming species need to be held 40F or less.
I have dealt with plenty of food borne illness investigations, outbreaks, recalls, etc. Be careful with what you do with raw food.

BTW the ginger and wasabi and other ingredients that are thought to (KILL) microorganisms do offer a lethality but the time frame is the question. Pathogenic lethality sometimes takes a very long time. Proper cooking will offer instantaneous death often with a 5-6 log or more death rate. Natural ingredients might offer a significantly less lethality.

When looking at food borne illnesses at the lethality level, 99.999% is the minimum required most of the time. That doesn't leave much room for error.

Proper handwashing (a rarity) offers a 99.9% reduction of pathogens at best.

Don't beat me up for this, I am just supplying factual info.



fishoil,
what role do you imagine (if any) gut bacteria plays in mitigating these dangers?

Gut bacteria does play a part but if gut bacteria handles all of this, there would be no food borne illnesses and I would not have a job.
This about gut bacteria and competition. Was your food temperature abused to allow for significant bacteria growth that will overload your gut bacteria? Take a look at E Coli 0157H7, it has an infection rate of 1 cell, get a few cells things can get out of hand.

How about the people who get bovine tuberculosis from drinking raw milk???

fishoil,
that's a red herring; almost nobody healthy gets tb, that is why it is classified as an OI. Bovine tuberculosis from drinking raw milk is absurd because it would have to compete with the benign flora already present - when a batch of yogurt is contaminated they just wait an hour or two and test it again, it cleans itself, destroys the pathogens.

In the contrived test you described, the raw milk must be tested for the pathogen immediately after the researcher adds it for that same reason - pathogens don't survive long in raw milk. Alternately, for a less contrived study the researcher could contaminate pasteurized milk and then they could leisurely perform the test without having to rush since it wouldn't decontaminate itself as well.

Regarding the E Coli there are myrid strains of gut bacteria that work together in synergy to obliterate it; seems to me a question of how many nanomites and how many varieties an individual has cultivated that is the issue here. Collectively, the benign flora is considered an organ in terms of it's diverse function and a healthy gut is immune to E Coli and salmonella.

Your thinking is wrong; instead of worrying about consuming "dangerous" bacteria, consider that walking around without a gut full of healthy bacteria is akin to walking around without a vital digestive organ.

I think if an individual wishes to make themselves weak and susceptible to illness like that so they can only subsist on sterile lifeless (nutritionless) food, it's their choice and you agree; yet you feel entitled to suggest we shouldn't be able to choose to drink raw milk and other sources of benign flora. Again, because your thinking is wrong.


Maybe you guys should get more involved with foodborne illness investigations and spend 10 years conducting food inspection, taking food samples for lab analysis, etc. Your thinking would drastically change forever....
If pathogens don't live long in raw milk, why are pathogens found in raw milk then???

There is merit to some of what you guys are talking about but there are too many dangerous variables that you have no control of before you get your food.


fishoil,
citing your experience with food investigations and taking samples to the lab for analysis instead of addressing any of my points preempts discussion - save that mindset for work where you can present yourself as an authority endorsing an official view; this is a discussion board and you'll need to engage your mind if you want to participate - "I'm Batman" doesn't fly.

Your questions are contrived and consistently red herrings; guess what - pasteurization was initially just instituted as a temporary process until the dairies could clean up their operation; thus the mystery of how raw milk gets contaminated:

1. cow stamps, steps into the milking pan while being milked; feces contamination.
2. sick cow is milked and the milk is blended in
3. farmer uses a dirty milking pan

Raw milk is so good at cleaning itself of pathogens that a lot of filth can be tolerated in this enterprise; an amazing level of uncleanliness has to be achieved to get pathogens into raw milk. It's a lot easier to get pathogens into pasteurized milk as you must know from the data; the prevalence of contamination in raw milk is a non-issue by comparison.
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fishoil

fishoil,
citing your experience with food investigations and taking samples to the lab for analysis instead of addressing any of my points preempts discussion - save that mindset for work where you can present yourself as an authority endorsing an official view; this is a discussion board and you'll need to engage your mind if you want to participate - "I'm Batman" doesn't fly.

Your questions are contrived and consistently red herrings; guess what - pasteurization was initially just instituted as a temporary process until the dairies could clean up their operation; thus the mystery of how raw milk gets contaminated:

1. cow stamps, steps into the milking pan while being milked; feces contamination.
2. sick cow is milked and the milk is blended in
3. farmer uses a dirty milking pan

Raw milk is so good at cleaning itself of pathogens that a lot of filth can be tolerated in this enterprise; an amazing level of uncleanliness has to be achieved to get pathogens into raw milk. It's a lot easier to get pathogens into pasteurized milk as you must know from the data; the prevalence of contamination in raw milk is a non-issue by comparison.
[/quote]

Since your "thinking" is superior and my authoritative Batman image isn't for this discussion board, when was the last time you were on a dairy farm and how many dairy farms have you been to make your 3 point analysis of how raw milk is contaminated with pathogens? Also give us the science behind how raw milk kills pathogens? You are talking about competion of organisms in milk and when dealing with certain pathogens, the mere presence of that pathogen could trigger illness in humans. Have you ever heard of listeria??? Aged raw milk cheeses (aged 60 days) will achieve a 5 log reduction or greater of pathogens and that is why it is allowed. The key factor is controlling water activity, pH, etc and holding it at that environment for the lethality required to make it safe.

If I am catching your thinking right, do you wash your hands, wash your dishes, wash your vegetables, etc???? If the gut could handle everything, we would all be able to live like filthy barbarians and be healthy as can be...

Developing healthy gut flora is essential but doing it with raw chicken and parasitic fish is over the edge.
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Tomislav

New York, USA

fishoil wrote:
fishoil,
citing your experience with food investigations and taking samples to the lab for analysis instead of addressing any of my points preempts discussion - save that mindset for work where you can present yourself as an authority endorsing an official view; this is a discussion board and you'll need to engage your mind if you want to participate - "I'm Batman" doesn't fly.

Your questions are contrived and consistently red herrings; guess what - pasteurization was initially just instituted as a temporary process until the dairies could clean up their operation; thus the mystery of how raw milk gets contaminated:

1. cow stamps, steps into the milking pan while being milked; feces contamination.
2. sick cow is milked and the milk is blended in
3. farmer uses a dirty milking pan

Raw milk is so good at cleaning itself of pathogens that a lot of filth can be tolerated in this enterprise; an amazing level of uncleanliness has to be achieved to get pathogens into raw milk. It's a lot easier to get pathogens into pasteurized milk as you must know from the data; the prevalence of contamination in raw milk is a non-issue by comparison.


Since your "thinking" is superior and my authoritative Batman image isn't for this discussion board, when was the last time you were on a dairy farm and how many dairy farms have you been to make your 3 point analysis of how raw milk is contaminated with pathogens? Also give us the science behind how raw milk kills pathogens? You are talking about competion of organisms in milk and when dealing with certain pathogens, the mere presence of that pathogen could trigger illness in humans. Have you ever heard of listeria??? Aged raw milk cheeses (aged 60 days) will achieve a 5 log reduction or greater of pathogens and that is why it is allowed. The key factor is controlling water activity, pH, etc and holding it at that environment for the lethality required to make it safe.

If I am catching your thinking right, do you wash your hands, wash your dishes, wash your vegetables, etc???? If the gut could handle everything, we would all be able to live like filthy barbarians and be healthy as can be...

Developing healthy gut flora is essential but doing it with raw chicken and parasitic fish is over the edge.


fishoil,
projecting the image that you are right because you are batman is at odds with any discussion forum because it means you no longer have to discuss or think for yourself; this is faith based rather than scientific.

You've asked about the last time I was on a dairy farm and how many dairy farms I've been on as though these are relevant criteria; it's not - many farmers have been taught to follow religious beliefs and practices shunning raw milk and eggs - I've even know farmers who were told to replace butter with margarine by well meaning faith healers (in all fairness, the majority of faith healers now admit this was a bad idea, proclaim that butter is healthier).

How I made my 3 point analysis was a better question - these are direct observations I made growing up on a farm. And I have a pretty good idea where you got your outlandish ideas - they can only be accepted blindly from faith healers in the classroom.

Your other question on the science of how raw milk kills pathogens was also a good one; you've answered this yourself in part with the aged cheese. The bacteria is effective immediately at killing pathogens; as you pointed out after 60 days pathogens cannot survive. Same with raw milk only quicker; even if the raw milk is badly contaminated just leaving it out on the counter for a few hours will turn it into sour milk and greatly bolster it's ability to decontaminate itself. Yogurt is another example; if a batch is contaminated it will test clean just hours later.

Your idea that you would develop healthy gut bacteria by consuming raw chicken and parasitic fish suggests a lack of understanding; I'd suggest you try the following:

Drink kefir, yogurt and buttermilk in quantity at every single meal for several weeks; you'll cultivate enough variety and quantity of healthy gut bacteria that you won't get sick from eating raw meat because you've created an environment unfavourable to pathogens. The mechanisms by which pathogens are destroyed by healthy gut bacteria are myriad; one strain of bacteria may be enhancing the hosts natural defenses (pumping out B-12 for example) while another strain is busy repairing damage to the intestinal walls that could be used as an egress by some pathogens while another strain of bacteria selectively kills pathogens directly - there's a lot of beneficial synergy between the different types of benign flora that continues to be identified.
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southbeach

I don't eat fish very often and recently i stopped taking the oil of a fish in pill form. I now sprinkle ground flaxseed on my meals. (not the oil, it gets rancid quickly!)

The reason, I read some negative things recently that turned my head.
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