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Determine the Length of Your Workouts

Evaluate Your Progress

Keep Warm-Up in Perspective


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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

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krazy kaju

How do you guys deal with the exhaustion experienced after working hard on some of the hardest exercises - e.g. squats, leg presses, rows, etc.?

I'm considering going back to a whole body routine, but exhaustion after just a few exercises is difficult to avoid.

For example, if I start my workout with legs, I am completely drained by the time I start training my other bodyparts.

What do you guys do to get recovered and ready for more? Intra-workout drink? 10+ minutes rest?

What did Casey Viator, Mike Mentzer, and other bodybuilders trained by Arthur Jones do in order to recuperate their energy for later sets?

Thanks,
kaju
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HeavyHitter32

There's definitely several ways to do them.

- If you're going to absolute positive failure and using largely compound movements, they are going to have to be very short. For myself, that would be consolidation-like training.

- If going sub-failure or shying back 1-2 reps from failure, you can definitely get away with more movements.

- Some people might perform them while only going to failure on several movements, while going sub failure on the others.

- You can also rotate full body sessions so that perhaps you are doing smaller upper body movements when performing compound hip/leg movements. On the other session, maybe use single joint leg movements (except maybe stiff legged deadlift) while using upper body compound movements.

Doing some of these things are the only way I can do them. I also think there could be an anabolic effect to them - just based on experience.
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Tony Williams

Three minutes rest between all exercises (I time myself).

Over the years, I've done splits and whole body, and the latter seems to work better for me.

Tony
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crazeeJZ

For whole body, all I can handle are alternated A/B, consolidation big 3 types of workouts, with one iso, but try this order:

Upper body compounds
Arms
Legs(or deadlifts if you do them)

You want to do upperbody compounds early when you're fresh. You want to do arms in the middle because they're smaller exercises, and give your overall body somewhat of a break. You want to do legs last because after the exhaustion from legs, all you'll want to do is walk out of the gym to recover, not have to do the rest of your body.
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J-son

KK,

I guess you gonna train HST full body. Thats good, trying to split up the body on HST is way to much work.

The answer to your question: its hard but you Will get used to it and its only one session every second week where you are supposed to max out.

The trick to do full body (especialy of you want to do 2 sets or more) sequence it legs/pull/push eg:

Squat
Row
Benchpress
SLDL
Chins
Dips
Calves
Shrugs
Press
Bicurl
Triext

This is a kind of template that seems to be popular with HST. You can move from exercise to exercise with almost no rest between.

One very important point: dont start your first cycle without taking at least a week of.

//Jonas
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Tony Williams

Like crazee, I alternate workouts:

Workout #1

leg press

pulldown

incline chest press

Workout #2

deadlift

chinups

dips

I had forgotten until this moment, but belted squats might be a good exercise for me.

Sometimes, I do all six in one day. Workout #1, for example, earlier in the day and Workout #2 later, but that is rare.

I go to failure on all exercises except the deadlift.

However, I do believe MMF is sometimes mental failure rather than physical.

I agree with HH. The more exercises you take to failure ... the more consolidated your workout must be, and the more recovery -- rest -- you must have.

Tony
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Tony Williams

crazeeJZ wrote:
For whole body, all I can handle are alternated A/B, consolidation big 3 types of workouts, with one iso, but try this order:

Upper body compounds
Arms
Legs(or deadlifts if you do them)

You want to do upperbody compounds early when you're fresh. You want to do arms in the middle because they're smaller exercises, and give your overall body somewhat of a break. You want to do legs last because after the exhaustion from legs, all you'll want to do is walk out of the gym to recover, not have to do the rest of your body.


Another theory would be to do legs first since they are the largest muscles and provide the most overall systemic effect.

I used to do legs last. Now I do them first.

It is almost impossible to find someone with large legs and a small upper body, but you can spot men and teens everyday with large upper body development and skinny legs.

How many guys have you known in the past or seen in the gym that work only their upper bodies.

A bunch I would bet.

Tony
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Turpin

Personally I too like train & allow the body to recover as an entire unit. However I have been making better progress over the past 6 months by performing an upper/lower body split ( see below ) which has aided my recovery a lot , and I now train every 4-5 days as opposed to 7-9 days when doing full body.
That said I DID enjoy the very simple concept of training and allowing the body to recover as one unit , & I know I will return to such at some point ( perhaps soon ).

My present routine.

Sun; Leg ext ( pre-exhaust )/ leg press / toe press/ weighted hyper ext ( hamstrings )

Thurs; Bench from pins ( deadstarts 3" above chest `rest pause` style ) / D/B rows / shrugs ( alt infrequently with D`lift )

Tues; Belt squats / donkey calf raise / weighted hyper ext )

Sun; Chins / Dips / & shoulder work ( shoulder exercise varies from workout to workout )

I perform 3 sets x 3 reps of light /moderate & heavy resistance then take a set to max reps with the moderate resistance.
The cadence I use is controlled on the negative ( about 4 secs ) and as fast as I can move the resistance on the positive , I terminate my top sets when form breaks down or the cadence drops to a grind ( not to failure )
I also like to superset antagonistic muscle groups/exercise ie; a set of dips followed by a set of chins OR pin presses & d/b rows , biceps & triceps etc. this not only increases the intensity of the workout by way of reducing the duration of the workout , but I feel that antagonistic training seems to prime/innervate the opposing musculature further effort.

Best wishes , T.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

My legs have done well compared to my upper body, so I never really train them TF on the big movements. On LP or Squats or GMs or DLs, I like to move up in small increments.

I may go TF on things like Calves and Leg Ext.

To not get wiped, I do no more than 3, maybe 4, BIG compound movements in a workout.

Also, you can do "whole body" workouts w/o doing an exercise for each body part. I usually do directly antagonistic movements within one plane of motion each workout. That's more than just doing back and chest exercises together, but looking at vertical, horizontal, and even angled planes-of-motion for my upper body compound movements.

CG Bench-Rows
BN Press-FG PDs
Dips-High Pulls
Incline Press-Naut PDs or Hammer High Rows

I don't do all of these in one workout, but usually pick one POM per workout. Add a couple of support moves (perhaps something neglected by that day's POM) and you've created a "whole body" workout.
______________________________

In some regards, the 'feeling wiped out' thing comes down to conditioning. You just have to work through and eventually your condition should catch-up, as long you're not overtraining yourself.

When I do feel esp wiped-out, I can usually track it back to some factor like not enough sleep or a poor food choice.

Scott
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Lioncourt

I've always liked to do full body workouts like Steve Reeves did and move leg exercises to the end of the workout. That leaves me plenty of energy to really focus on my upper body and then I can take a few minutes break before moving on to the lower body.

It also lets me throw more into my lower body exercises since I'm not mentally distracted knowing that I still have to go do chest and back after I'm done.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

==Scott==
I'd say if you are experiencing exhaustion after doing legs you are working to much or too hard for that workout.I see no need to work to exhaustion on any body part during a workout.The idea isn't to kill your self during a workout, it's just to try and push it a little further than you did the last time.

You can do a thousand sets or push one set until your eye's pop out of your head and your muscles almost rip from the joints but your body can only take so much each workout before you need to go into extended periods between workouts to ever be able to recover much less actually grow.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

entsminger wrote:
==Scott==
I'd say if you are experiencing exhaustion after doing legs you are working to much or too hard for that workout.I see no need to work to exhaustion on any body part during a workout.The idea isn't to kill your self during a workout, it's just to try and push it a little further than you did the last time.

You can do a thousand sets or push one set until your eye's pop out of your head and your muscles almost rip from the joints but your body can only take so much each workout before you need to go into extended periods between workouts to ever be able to recover much less actually grow.


By George, I think he's got it!
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db144

I prefer full body routines over splits.

d
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DNAHelix

New York, USA

IDK what would be better, all I know I am doing a split now and on the days I train back - delts - biceps I feel a pump in chest and triceps as well.

So I am guessing the whole body is probably the way to go.

1. Not sure that less is better(more).

2. Would not take all the exercises to failure.

3. Would probably do multiple sets of some.

4. In the end I guess most of it comes from your diet.

If one gets good results from 3 sets total per workout then this is the way to go. If one gets good results from 30 sets per workout, then this is also the way to go.

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marcrph

Portugal

Dead lifts involve heavily most muscles of the body except the pushing motion of the pectorals. Therefore, dead lifts and dips make a terrific whole body workout.

To avoid the tired achy fatigued felling, you must work non failure with heavy weights. This will not promote the above side effects. Rest time between sets needs to be 5 minutes for ATP replenishment. Turpin's 3x3 would be ideal. All these undesirable side effects can be avoided if one simply trains a few reps short of failure and with low reps. Long rest periods means starting fresh and your form will be consistently good as to avoid training injuries. .
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crazeeJZ

Tony Williams wrote:
crazeeJZ wrote:
For whole body, all I can handle are alternated A/B, consolidation big 3 types of workouts, with one iso, but try this order:

Upper body compounds
Arms
Legs(or deadlifts if you do them)

You want to do upperbody compounds early when you're fresh. You want to do arms in the middle because they're smaller exercises, and give your overall body somewhat of a break. You want to do legs last because after the exhaustion from legs, all you'll want to do is walk out of the gym to recover, not have to do the rest of your body.


Another theory would be to do legs first since they are the largest muscles and provide the most overall systemic effect.

I used to do legs last. Now I do them first.

It is almost impossible to find someone with large legs and a small upper body, but you can spot men and teens everyday with large upper body development and skinny legs.

How many guys have you known in the past or seen in the gym that work only their upper bodies.

A bunch I would bet.

Tony


I would never want to do legs first. They exhaust me too much systemically, or leave me drained, to where I feel I'm short-changing the rest of my body, even if I went to failure on the rest of my body. That systemic effect cancels out for me whatever positive one there might be. That positive one sounds overrated to me. People with large upperbodies and small lower don't seem to miss it.

The large upperbody, small legs thing has to do with people who neglect their legs. Doing legs at the end of a workout will NOT have them lagging behind the rest of your body, unless you're genetically predisposed to such.

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larsvonthreat

marcrph wrote:
Dead lifts involve heavily most muscles of the body except the pushing motion of the pectorals. Therefore, dead lifts and dips make a terrific whole body workout.


What about squat dips chins?

When I train fullbody it usually a big 5 with single joints(pre fatigue,direct armwork).One set TF or CTF with very little rest (maybe a minute or two after the legs).
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southbeach

krazy kaju wrote:
How do you guys deal with the exhaustion experienced after working hard on some of the hardest exercises - e.g. squats, leg presses, rows, etc.?

I'm considering going back to a whole body routine, but exhaustion after just a few exercises is difficult to avoid.

For example, if I start my workout with legs, I am completely drained by the time I start training my other bodyparts.

What do you guys do to get recovered and ready for more? Intra-workout drink? 10+ minutes rest?

What did Casey Viator, Mike Mentzer, and other bodybuilders trained by Arthur Jones do in order to recuperate their energy for later sets?

Thanks,
kaju


the excessive exhaustion you experience is from engaging about 200 muscles in stabilization from poor exercise choice while working only ONE to failure. You can go push hard on a parked car for an hour and feel whipped..but won't do "squat" for muscle growth.

Doesn't it make more sense to better isolate your target musculature with proper exercise selection while resting the other 200 stabilzers thru artificial restraint? Than waste their finite metabolic resources thru sub-optimal contraction (ie, stabilization?)

Those resources are better spent worked as prime movers when their turn arrives down the line in an isolation exercise with a load tailored to them.
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gerry-hitman

Mentzer later split his workouts up and for good reason. Full body High intensity just takes too much out of you are are almost impossible to keep the intensity high throughout the complete workout.

I have used them for some time and confirm his observations.

I have tried many combinations but found a 3 part split the best for me.

Mon- Chest/back
Wed-Complete legs and sometimes abs.
Fri-Shoulders/arms.
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NewYorker

New York, USA

If you allow little or no rest between exercises you will quickly adapt to it.
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HeavyHitter32

gerry-hitman wrote:
Mentzer later split his workouts up and for good reason. Full body High intensity just takes too much out of you are are almost impossible to keep the intensity high throughout the complete workout.

I have used them for some time and confirm his observations.

I have tried many combinations but found a 3 part split the best for me.

Mon- Chest/back
Wed-Complete legs and sometimes abs.
Fri-Shoulders/arms.


Gerry,

Are you using one exercise per muscle, or multiple exercises (such as flies and chest press, for example)?
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gerry-hitman

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
gerry-hitman wrote:
Mentzer later split his workouts up and for good reason. Full body High intensity just takes too much out of you are are almost impossible to keep the intensity high throughout the complete workout.

I have used them for some time and confirm his observations.

I have tried many combinations but found a 3 part split the best for me.

Mon- Chest/back
Wed-Complete legs and sometimes abs.
Fri-Shoulders/arms.

Gerry,

Are you using one exercise per muscle, or multiple exercises (such as flies and chest press, for example)?


I use multiple exercises. For example right now for chest I start with a fat bench in the smith machine...now this is a GREAT exercise to build upper pecs a body-part I have a hard time with!

perform it exactly like this:

lay fat with feet flat on the floor...set the bar to come down right at the breast bone just below the collar bone.

set the safety at a point where the bar just touches or slightly above your chest. Shoulder width grip, point elbows straight out to the side, have your lower back slightly arched upwards with your shoulders squeezed together and pressed down hard into bench.

start with lighter weight warm up sets and pyramid up...bring the bar down until you feel the stretch in your upper pecs (almost touching your chest is best). Do not extend arms fully at the top.

Then I do DB pullovers, then cable flyes. Now this is what Im doing now but will change up exercises every couple of months.

TC
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gerry-hitman

NewYorker wrote:
If you allow little or no rest between exercises you will quickly adapt to it.


I never did adapt to it...
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HeavyHitter32

gerry-hitman wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
gerry-hitman wrote:
Mentzer later split his workouts up and for good reason. Full body High intensity just takes too much out of you are are almost impossible to keep the intensity high throughout the complete workout.

I have used them for some time and confirm his observations.

I have tried many combinations but found a 3 part split the best for me.

Mon- Chest/back
Wed-Complete legs and sometimes abs.
Fri-Shoulders/arms.

Gerry,

Are you using one exercise per muscle, or multiple exercises (such as flies and chest press, for example)?

I use multiple exercises. For example right now for chest I start with a fat bench in the smith machine...now this is a GREAT exercise to build upper pecs a body-part I have a hard time with!

perform it exactly like this:

lay fat with feet flat on the floor...set the bar to come down right at the breast bone just below the collar bone.

set the safety at a point where the bar just touches or slightly above your chest. Shoulder width grip, point elbows straight out to the side, have your lower back slightly arched upwards with your shoulders squeezed together and pressed down hard into bench.

start with lighter weight warm up sets and pyramid up...bring the bar down until you feel the stretch in your upper pecs (almost touching your chest is best). Do not extend arms fully at the top.

Then I do DB pullovers, then cable flyes. Now this is what Im doing now but will change up exercises every couple of months.

TC


Sounds like a solid approach. I think changes up exercises every couple of months is also good for the mind and possibly body (perhaps different tension curves are beneficial).

For arms and delts, do you just use one exercise for each?

Also, ever try the three-way with chest/delts/tri, back/bi, and legs? Basically, like HDI?
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gerry-hitman

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
gerry-hitman wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
gerry-hitman wrote:
Mentzer later split his workouts up and for good reason. Full body High intensity just takes too much out of you are are almost impossible to keep the intensity high throughout the complete workout.

I have used them for some time and confirm his observations.

I have tried many combinations but found a 3 part split the best for me.

Mon- Chest/back
Wed-Complete legs and sometimes abs.
Fri-Shoulders/arms.

Gerry,

Are you using one exercise per muscle, or multiple exercises (such as flies and chest press, for example)?

I use multiple exercises. For example right now for chest I start with a fat bench in the smith machine...now this is a GREAT exercise to build upper pecs a body-part I have a hard time with!

perform it exactly like this:

lay fat with feet flat on the floor...set the bar to come down right at the breast bone just below the collar bone.

set the safety at a point where the bar just touches or slightly above your chest. Shoulder width grip, point elbows straight out to the side, have your lower back slightly arched upwards with your shoulders squeezed together and pressed down hard into bench.

start with lighter weight warm up sets and pyramid up...bring the bar down until you feel the stretch in your upper pecs (almost touching your chest is best). Do not extend arms fully at the top.

Then I do DB pullovers, then cable flyes. Now this is what Im doing now but will change up exercises every couple of months.

TC

Sounds like a solid approach. I think changes up exercises every couple of months is also good for the mind and possibly body (perhaps different tension curves are beneficial).

For arms and delts, do you just use one exercise for each?

Also, ever try the three-way with chest/delts/tri, back/bi, and legs? Basically, like HDI?


I perform 1 exercise for each of the 3 delt heads...Biceps right now is seated DB curls with the bench set back and arms straight down to the sides. First I do palm up then for the second exercise, its the same except hammer style.

Tri's are usually cable V-bar press downs, or overhead rope cable presses.

yeah I have done that split, and sometimes switch to that for periods of time. But my favorite split is the one I listed above.

How about you...what you doing now?
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