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Momentum - The Tension Scourge
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southbeach

Was at gym yesterday when it came to me! Noticed a guy doing leg raises you know the kind where elbows are supporting your vertical body, keep knees straight then raise them with hip flexion.

In style typical of most the pace was furious legs swinging up and down, up and down. Then it hit me I walked over introduced myself and dispensed with the obligatory pleasantries and then said...

"Try something for me. To a count of "30" slowly and evenly raise your legs as high as you can keeping your knees strait like you have been doing."

We got a problem Houston! lol He couldn't even ONE rep past 45 degrees! Needless to say he couldn't make the full 30 secs either. But he could SWING them up 90 degrees for FIFTEEN or TWENTY REPS to and fro!

Why? MOMENTUM! It does exist in every resistance set..just the question is how much.

Higher rep schemes has greater potential to introduce the tension scourge of momentum. But even 5 reps may have lots of momentum.

As you know momentum reduces tension as active muscle tries to keep up with the resistance.

More on this later as I want to develop this breaking discovery a bit further...
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

southbeach wrote:
Was at gym yesterday when it came to me! Noticed a guy doing leg raises you know the kind where elbows are supporting your vertical body, keep knees straight then raise them with hip flexion.

In style typical of most the pace was furious legs swinging up and down, up and down. Then it hit me I walked over introduced myself and dispensed with the obligatory pleasantries and then said...

"Try something for me. To a count of "30" slowly and evenly raise your legs as high as you can keeping your knees strait like you have been doing."

We got a problem Houston! lol He couldn't even ONE rep past 45 degrees! Needless to say he couldn't make the full 30 secs either. But he could SWING them up 90 degrees for FIFTEEN or TWENTY REPS to and fro!

Why? MOMENTUM! It does exist in every resistance set..just the question is how much.

Higher rep schemes has greater potential to introduce the tension scourge of momentum. But even 5 reps may have lots of momentum.

As you know momentum reduces tension as active muscle tries to keep up with the resistance.

More on this later as I want to develop this breaking discovery a bit further...


==Scott==
The only Tension Scourge on here is you. You promote lot's of tension and aggrivation.
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Mr. Strong

How many were you able to do in that style?
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db144

This is just too funny. Can't decide what is funnier, SB discovering momentum after 20 years of training or him being helpful in the gym. Seems this is SB's round about way of getting us to discuss his "new" discovery. I guess he must have read an article or study about momentum which will be posted directly.

d
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southbeach

Mr. Strong wrote:
How many were you able to do in that style?


Before I left the gym I did try one swinging fast and then one 30sec rep to feel the diff. No comparison, the 30 sec rep was harder from eliminating all the momo'
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Al Coleman

Ohio, USA

db144 wrote:
This is just too funny. Can't decide what is funnier, SB discovering momentum after 20 years of training or him being helpful in the gym. Seems this is SB's round about way of getting us to discuss his "new" discovery. I guess he must have read an article or study about momentum which will be posted directly.

d


While I understand that SB is not a fan favorite around here, this does not discredit his insight.

It is true that attempting to eliminate EFFECTIVE momentum is something many of us have been practicing for years, this however, doesn't discredit his insight either.

Everyone has an "Ah-ha" moment at some point and I find it funny that people make fun of others for having them. All this really shows is that the critc hasn't has their's yet.

Oh, and I should add one MAJOR point here; intellectual comprehension of a subject does NOT equal treu knowledge of a subject. While most here can make fun of SB's insight because they think they know what he is talking about and find it remedial, the truth of the matter is that very few actually KNOW what he is talking about.

The only criticism I have is that 30 seconds will introduce segments and thus introduce changes in acceleration.

Al
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southbeach

Al Coleman wrote:
db144 wrote:
This is just too funny. Can't decide what is funnier, SB discovering momentum after 20 years of training or him being helpful in the gym. Seems this is SB's round about way of getting us to discuss his "new" discovery. I guess he must have read an article or study about momentum which will be posted directly.

d

While I understand that SB is not a fan favorite around here, this does not discredit his insight.

It is true that attempting to eliminate EFFECTIVE momentum is something many of us have been practicing for years, this however, doesn't discredit his insight either.

Everyone has an "Ah-ha" moment at some point and I find it funny that people make fun of others for having them. All this really shows is that the critc hasn't has their's yet.

Oh, and I should add one MAJOR point here; intellectual comprehension of a subject does NOT equal treu knowledge of a subject. While most here can make fun of SB's insight because they think they know what he is talking about and find it remedial, the truth of the matter is that very few actually KNOW what he is talking about.

The only criticism I have is that 30 seconds will introduce segments and thus introduce changes in acceleration.

Al


Al, right! By "segments" you are speaking about a series of "starts & stops" that a significantly long rep (eg, 30secs) introduces into the movement? I didn't think anyone else understood this!

That's not necessarily a bad this is it?
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chasbari

Ohio, USA

Welcome to the party.. about 40 years too late. This is not new nor is it news. We were teaching this as part and parcel of Nautilus training principles way back when.
Also, you are incorrect when you say all forms of resistance training have momentum. Not here they don't. It is impossible.
At least you actually made a training observation. Gads, there may be hope yet.
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dhitquinn

A reasonable post and quite important

However what did this guy say when you approached him? Did he give you a dollar thinking you were a beggar who hadnt eaten in days?
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db144

From Al C:
"All this really shows is that the critc hasn't has their's yet."

The critic being me? That was a nice slight. Have we ever worked out together or is that an assumption you pulled out of your ass?

Al, when you train someone do you immediately cover the subject of the reduction and/or elimination of momentum or do you wait years to broach the subject? I think you just might cover that subject early on and often.

Everybody here, myself included, knows in any gym the use of momentum is a constant. I just find it suspicious that SB is just now noticing this problem after ranting his 20 years of training expertise nonstop for the 2 years I've frequented this forum.

From SB:
"More on this later as I want to develop this breaking discovery a bit further..."

I'm not arguing that he is correct but I don't think this story is genuine. I don't trust anything SB says because even when he is proved incorrect he just keeps hammering away with the same falsehood/lie.

d
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db144

ddhq:

He gave him $2 (inflation).

d
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Joshua Trentine

Ohio, USA

db144 wrote:
From Al C:
"All this really shows is that the critc hasn't has their's yet."

The critic being me? That was a nice slight. Have we ever worked out together or is that an assumption you pulled out of your ass?

Al, when you train someone do you immediately cover the subject of the reduction and/or elimination of momentum or do you wait years to broach the subject? I think you just might cover that subject early on and often.

Everybody here, myself included, knows in any gym the use of momentum is a constant. I just find it suspicious that SB is just now noticing this problem after ranting his 20 years of training expertise nonstop for the 2 years I've frequented this forum.

From SB:
"More on this later as I want to develop this breaking discovery a bit further..."

I'm not arguing that he is correct but I don't think this story is genuine. I don't trust anything SB says because even when he is proved incorrect he just keeps hammering away with the same falsehood/lie.

d



"Everybody here, myself included, knows in any gym the use of momentum is a constant"

What does that mean?
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dhitquinn

db144 wrote:
ddhq:

He gave him $2 (inflation).

d


Lol :)
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db144

Josh:

I assume you're taking exception with my use of the word "any" and in retrospect I should not have used that word. Many well trained lifters do not have this problem. I should have said in most gyms one would use or walk by looking in will see the use of momentum. I stand corrected.

As you know many trainees sacrifice form to lift more weight. Many will swing, fidget, and rearrange themselves underweight to push/pull more weight than what that person should be using.

d


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Turpin

A little Momentum is fine provided it is not abused ( ie; swinging and using excessive resistance which necessitates the former ) , I find it creates a degree of rhythm to ones set of repetitions . In my training to date I use this break down of rhythm/form & drop in speed of concentric cadence to determine where I should terminate THAT set.

T.
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Joseph Anderson

db144 wrote:
Josh:

I assume you're taking exception with my use of the word "any" and in retrospect I should not have used that word.


"Any" is right . . . momentum is in every gym, including Josh's. The question is whether or not the lifter is "using it" to a great advantage. You can't eliminate, but you can minimize its contribution to the intended movement. Conversely, you can maximize its effect (or rather most just mindlessly flail around).

Outside the gym, I often want momentum, leverage, the structural integrity of my skeleton, etc. to absorb the majority of resistance/force I'm attempting to move. Not in the gym, though.
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crazeeJZ

southbeach wrote:
Mr. Strong wrote:
How many were you able to do in that style?

Before I left the gym I did try one swinging fast and then one 30sec rep to feel the diff. No comparison, the 30 sec rep was harder from eliminating all the momo'


It was harder on the lesser amount of muscle fibers you were activating to lift your legs slowly than if higher force faster reps activating more muscle fibers were performed.

When you start progressively weighting movements, a lot of momentum is bad on the positive and negative rep, but some momentum on the positive rep is good because muscle produces momentum on the positive rep, not an outside force.

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crazeeJZ

Turpin wrote:
A little Momentum is fine provided it is not abused ( ie; swinging and using excessive resistance which necessitates the former ) , I find it creates a degree of rhythm to ones set of repetitions . In my training to date I use this break down of rhythm/form & drop in speed of concentric cadence to determine where I should terminate THAT set.

T.


True. I guess it's characteristic for extremists to take things to the extreme. They either miss the forest for the trees, or use false logic. A lot of momentum is bad, by extension, that does not mean any momentum on the positive rep is bad. A little momentum on the positive rep is actually good.

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dhitquinn

db144 wrote:
ddhq:

He gave him $2 (inflation).

d


Lol :)
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Mr. Strong

If the speed of movement is created by the musculature, not from swinging/kipping, then that is not a bad thing, excessive purposeful slowing is a bad thing.
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db144

This is the kind of momentum I'm talking about.

d
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Al Coleman

Ohio, USA

ddhitquinn wrote:
db144 wrote:
ddhq:

He gave him $2 (inflation).

d

Lol :)


What Joe A said is correct.

You can't eliminate momentum. The objective should be to keep Acceleration of the limb/object as close to zero as possible. Momentum then is rendered ineffective.

Al
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dhitquinn

This isnt what happened at all

southbeach approached the guy after doing his make up with one of those mini sets women carry

sb: hey there handsome, your gonna hurt somebody with those moves

Mystery man: im a little inexperienced i need a tall lean man to give me a little advice, all these brutes in here are so intimidating.......real gentlemen are hard to find

Sb: well your in luck cause you've found one now, though im not always gentle dont let my looks decieve you, your using too much momentum and too much thrust....leave the thrust to later (he says whilst sucking his finger)

MM: would you show me

SB: no problem gorgeous (he then takes the guy through the moves)....good real good......youve got real powerful hips your boyfriend is a lucky guy

MM: i dont have a boyfriend

SB: i dont normally do this but theres a new resteraunt that opened that specialises in veganism, you wouldnt be interested in joining me tomorrow night.....say 7ish

MM: id love to, does it have a dessert menu

SB: it does but at the moment the only dessert on the menu is you

They get up and walk hand in hand out of the gym
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hdlifter

ddhitquinn wrote:
This isnt what happened at all

southbeach approached the guy after doing his make up with one of those mini sets women carry

sb: hey there handsome, your gonna hurt somebody with those moves

Mystery man: im a little inexperienced i need a tall lean man to give me a little advice, all these brutes in here are so intimidating.......real gentlemen are hard to find

Sb: well your in luck cause you've found one now, though im not always gentle dont let my looks decieve you, your using too much momentum and too much thrust....leave the thrust to later (he says whilst sucking his finger)

MM: would you show me

SB: no problem gorgeous (he then takes the guy through the moves)....good real good......youve got real powerful hips your boyfriend is a lucky guy

MM: i dont have a boyfriend

SB: i dont normally do this but theres a new resteraunt that opened that specialises in veganism, you wouldnt be interested in joining me tomorrow night.....say 7ish

MM: id love to, does it have a dessert menu

SB: it does but at the moment the only dessert on the menu is you

They get up and walk hand in hand out of the gym


BHAHAHAHA I just woke up, read this... what a scream, this made my day!
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

What did he say when you introduced the AJ dolly as your "coach"?
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