MB Madaera
Lost 31.7 lbs fat
Built 11.7 lbs muscle


Chris Madaera
Built 9 lbs muscle


Keelan Parham
Lost 30 lbs fat
Built 4 lbs muscle


Bob Marchesello
Lost 23.55 lbs fat
Built 8.55 lbs muscle


Jeff Turner
Lost 25.5 lbs fat


Jeanenne Darden
Lost 26 lbs fat
Built 3 lbs muscle


Ted Tucker
Lost 41 lbs fat
Built 4 lbs muscle

 
 

Determine the Length of Your Workouts

Evaluate Your Progress

Keep Warm-Up in Perspective


ARCHIVES >>

"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

Mission Statement

H.I.T. Acceptable Use Policy

Privacy Policy

Credits

LOG IN FORUM MAIN REGISTER SEARCH
Fat Loss/Muscle Gain
1 | 2 | Next | Last
Author
Rating
Options

J.W.

Indiana, USA

Is it feasible for one to expect to be able to lose fat and gain a reasonable amount of mass simultaneoulsy? If so, how?
Open User Options Menu

Joseph Anderson

J.W. wrote:
Is it feasible for one to expect to be able to lose fat and gain a reasonable amount of mass simultaneoulsy? If so, how?


Yes, drugs.

Without drugs, the trend I see is that for short periods of time, one may see fat loss and minimal lbm gains. However, the longer one continues losing fat (or how lean they try to become), it becomes impossible to maximize lbm. The strategy then becomes an attempt to retain lbm (or at least minimize losses).

That said, this is only my observation (my clients aren't usually genetic-lottery winners). Others may have experience that differs . . .
Open User Options Menu

jastrain

Joseph Anderson wrote:
J.W. wrote:
Is it feasible for one to expect to be able to lose fat and gain a reasonable amount of mass simultaneoulsy? If so, how?

Yes, drugs.

Without drugs, the trend I see is that for short periods of time, one may see fat loss and minimal lbm gains. However, the longer one continues losing fat (or how lean they try to become), it becomes impossible to maximize lbm. The strategy then becomes an attempt to retain lbm (or at least minimize losses).

That said, this is only my observation (my clients aren't usually genetic-lottery winners). Others may have experience that differs . . .


i respectively disagree. in my experience once i started {eating clean] eliminating carbs almost entirely i have gained muscle and lost most of my unwanted fat. the low carb/no carb diet is so nutrient dense it feeds the muscle completely yet the proteins are not stored as fat therefore you are feeding the muscle completely yet no fat is being stored--you will be building muscle and burning your own fat at the same time. i went from 248lbs to 175lbs. but more importantly my strength has increased significantly. i have used hit training for 30 years. i know exactly what my strength levels were on all exercises. and i tell you at 45yrs of age my strength/size has increased dramatically in the 2 yrs that i have been eating clean. i was stuck at weighted dips 90lbs for years--i thought i reached my genetic limits. however, over the last 2 years my weighted dips have gone up from 90lbs for 8 reps to 135lbs!!! and all other exercises have also gone up. this works but it is not a diet it is a proper way of eating and it takes time to get used to. after 8 months to a year your body starts to heal and grow and function like it is supposed to--you are supposed to be burning your own fat for energy not stored sugar. and you are supposed to be feeding the muscle for growth [protein] high card restricted cal diets don't work because they are not nutrient dense therefore you will lose fat but also strength. it is very easy to understand once you make the switch to proper eating. your body functions the way it was meant to.try but not for a few weeks it takes at least 8 months to really understand what people like me are talking about. this is the same stuff josh is talking about with the raw eating--it is also low/no carb but eating it raw maximizes the nutrient absorption.this probably is a superior way of eating but that is very hardcore. i believe you can get 99.9% of the result by just getting rid of all of the processed carbs. eat meat,cheese,eggs,fish,poultry and non starchy veggies [green veggies].no sugar,bread rice potatoes read labels make sure it says 0 carbs. it is very easy once you get used to it. and there is a wide variety of things you can eat and spices you can use
Open User Options Menu

Joseph Anderson

jastrain wrote:
i respectively disagree. in my experience once i started {eating clean] eliminating carbs almost entirely i have gained muscle and lost most of my unwanted fat. the low carb/no carb diet is so nutrient dense it feeds the muscle completely yet the proteins are not stored as fat therefore you are feeding the muscle completely yet no fat is being stored--you will be building muscle and burning your own fat at the same time. i went from 248lbs to 175lbs. but more importantly my strength has increased significantly. i have used hit training for 30 years. i know exactly what my strength levels were on all exercises. and i tell you at 45yrs of age my strength/size has increased dramatically in the 2 yrs that i have been eating clean. i was stuck at weighted dips 90lbs for years--i thought i reached my genetic limits. however, over the last 2 years my weighted dips have gone up from 90lbs for 8 reps to 135lbs!!! and all other exercises have also gone up. this works but it is not a diet it is a proper way of eating and it takes time to get used to. after 8 months to a year your body starts to heal and grow and function like it is supposed to--you are supposed to be burning your own fat for energy not stored sugar. and you are supposed to be feeding the muscle for growth [protein] high card restricted cal diets don't work because they are not nutrient dense therefore you will lose fat but also strength. it is very easy to understand once you make the switch to proper eating. your body functions the way it was meant to.try but not for a few weeks it takes at least 8 months to really understand what people like me are talking about. this is the same stuff josh is talking about with the raw eating--it is also low/no carb but eating it raw maximizes the nutrient absorption.this probably is a superior way of eating but that is very hardcore. i believe you can get 99.9% of the result by just getting rid of all of the processed carbs. eat meat,cheese,eggs,fish,poultry and non starchy veggies [green veggies].no sugar,bread rice potatoes read labels make sure it says 0 carbs. it is very easy once you get used to it. and there is a wide variety of things you can eat and spices you can use


Individual experiences are always fascinating to me . . . observations of myself and numerous clients using a similar approach that you describe were not so favorable. I agree with eating real foods; but no carb/very low carb approaches have limited application, in my experience and opinion.

In regard to your results (which are impressive BTW), it is my contention that during the overall time-period that fat was lost and muscle gained, the overlap of the two was probably minimal (short bursts). Strength gains do not = lbm gains. It is possible that you were meticulously tracking body composition changes, and that I'm entirely wrong? However, I'd be surprised (and fascinated) if that were the case.

Either way, congratulations on finding something that worked so well for you!
Open User Options Menu

Turpin

J.W. wrote:
Is it feasible for one to expect to be able to lose fat and gain a reasonable amount of mass simultaneoulsy? If so, how?


If you are carrying excess bodyfat and in an unconditioned state then YES it is very likely that as well as losing bodyfat you will gain LBM with a well structured eating plan and training regime.
If however you are an experienced trainee who has already attained a fair degree of muscle and strength , then ( in my opinion/experience ) progress will be slow/falter until you level out at your new `conditioned` state.
As a powerlifter the objective was to find my optimal bodyweight ( weight category ) that without strength loss enabled me to lift the most weight for my bodyweight. For me I lifted as much at 75kg as I did at my offseason weight of around 80kg. I tried once to drop to the lightweight category of 67.5 kg but I realised a drop in performance below 72kg & since I saw little/no increase in strength above 75kg , It was easy to determine that the excessive offseason bodyfat/weight gain of some 12 lbs was of no value ( strength wise ) save for allowing me to relax and eat as I wished.
Each of us has this `optimal` bodyweight that beyond which we will realise a catabolic state ( strength/muscle loss ) but until one nears this `optimal` range of strength to weight ratio strength & muscle gain is very much possible ( In my experience ).

T.
Open User Options Menu

Tomislav

New York, USA

jastrain,
excellent results; you have clearly built a lot of muscle. However your training experience actually matches what Joe described - you minimized muscle and strength loss while dieting to lose weight. To illustrate, before dieting you were stronger:

Weighing 250 and dipping with 90 lbs = 330 lbs of resistance for 8 reps.

After dieting:

Weighing 175 and dipping with 135 lbs = 310 lbs of resistance for 8 reps.

While that's a lot of muscle and strength to maintain for such a drop in weight (and doubtless your appearance improved) there is no denying that after two years of heavy training you lost muscle and strength to the tune of 20 lbs off your heavy presses (dips).

I agree that at 250 you probably had some room to build muscle (extra fat), but had you maintained your weight for two years while training heavy you could have used that room for a composition change and would likely be dipping with more than 330 lbs for 8 reps - you would have gotten stronger and built more muscle instead of losing muscle and getting weaker.
Open User Options Menu

jastrain

Tomislav wrote:
jastrain,
excellent results; you have clearly built a lot of muscle. However your training experience actually matches what Joe described - you minimized muscle and strength loss while dieting to lose weight. To illustrate, before dieting you were stronger:

Weighing 250 and dipping with 90 lbs = 330 lbs of resistance for 8 reps.

After dieting:

Weighing 175 and dipping with 135 lbs = 310 lbs of resistance for 8 reps.

While that's a lot of muscle and strength to maintain for such a drop in weight (and doubtless your appearance improved) there is no denying that after two years of heavy training you lost muscle and strength to the tune of 20 lbs off your heavy presses (dips).

I agree that at 250 you probably had some room to build muscle (extra fat), but had you maintained your weight for two years while training heavy you could have used that room for a composition change and would likely be dipping with more than 330 lbs for 8 reps - you would have gotten stronger and built more muscle instead of losing muscle and getting weaker.


well, i should have been more clear. i was actually maxed out at 90lbs on the dip about 10 years ago. and my weight really never got more than 190lbs. i really started packing on the lbs when i moved in with my girlfriend--she cooks big and high carb stuff. so in 6 years i went from 190 to 248--but my strength never broke through that 90lbs level. it was only a year and a half or so that i busted through the 90 and moved to the 135lbs. i have figured the math out before--and i believe i lost 70lbs and went up 30lbs on the dip when i factored in the various weight increases minus fat loss
Open User Options Menu

pyro13g

Ohio, USA

I lost 17lbs of fat and gained 8 pounds of muscle in 9 weeks doing The Bowflex Body Plan with a Bowflex and free weights in 9 weeks. My caveat is that I was previously high volume training.

From my experience, it seems like you need to go to maintenance calories or slight surplus for a couple weeks after 6-8 weeks of a bigger calorie deficit.

Open User Options Menu

crazeeJZ

J.W. wrote:
Is it feasible for one to expect to be able to lose fat and gain a reasonable amount of mass simultaneoulsy? If so, how?


Not really because lower calories also means muscle loss, besides fat loss. Unless, like others have mentioned, you're in an untrained state, then you can for a short while. Generally, you'd be doing well to be losing weight and rebuilding existing muscle on lower calories.
Open User Options Menu

NewYorker

New York, USA

jastrain wrote:
....


Congratulations on your outstanding results!

You eat only meat,cheese,eggs,fish,poultry and non starchy veggies? No fruit, grain, beans, nuts, oils or dairy?

What does your training routine look like?

Thanks.
Open User Options Menu

Turpin

jastrain wrote:
Joseph Anderson wrote:
J.W. wrote:
Is it feasible for one to expect to be able to lose fat and gain a reasonable amount of mass simultaneoulsy? If so, how?

Yes, drugs.

Without drugs, the trend I see is that for short periods of time, one may see fat loss and minimal lbm gains. However, the longer one continues losing fat (or how lean they try to become), it becomes impossible to maximize lbm. The strategy then becomes an attempt to retain lbm (or at least minimize losses).

That said, this is only my observation (my clients aren't usually genetic-lottery winners). Others may have experience that differs . . .

i respectively disagree. in my experience once i started {eating clean] eliminating carbs almost entirely i have gained muscle and lost most of my unwanted fat. the low carb/no carb diet is so nutrient dense it feeds the muscle completely yet the proteins are not stored as fat therefore you are feeding the muscle completely yet no fat is being stored--you will be building muscle and burning your own fat at the same time. i went from 248lbs to 175lbs. but more importantly my strength has increased significantly. i have used hit training for 30 years. i know exactly what my strength levels were on all exercises. and i tell you at 45yrs of age my strength/size has increased dramatically in the 2 yrs that i have been eating clean. i was stuck at weighted dips 90lbs for years--i thought i reached my genetic limits. however, over the last 2 years my weighted dips have gone up from 90lbs for 8 reps to 135lbs!!! and all other exercises have also gone up. this works but it is not a diet it is a proper way of eating and it takes time to get used to. after 8 months to a year your body starts to heal and grow and function like it is supposed to--you are supposed to be burning your own fat for energy not stored sugar. and you are supposed to be feeding the muscle for growth [protein] high card restricted cal diets don't work because they are not nutrient dense therefore you will lose fat but also strength. it is very easy to understand once you make the switch to proper eating. your body functions the way it was meant to.try but not for a few weeks it takes at least 8 months to really understand what people like me are talking about. this is the same stuff josh is talking about with the raw eating--it is also low/no carb but eating it raw maximizes the nutrient absorption.this probably is a superior way of eating but that is very hardcore. i believe you can get 99.9% of the result by just getting rid of all of the processed carbs. eat meat,cheese,eggs,fish,poultry and non starchy veggies [green veggies].no sugar,bread rice potatoes read labels make sure it says 0 carbs. it is very easy once you get used to it. and there is a wide variety of things you can eat and spices you can use



Jastrain , It would be great ( & I dare say inspirational to most ) if you could post a before/after pic of your loss & subsequent muscular gain.

Best wishes , T.
Open User Options Menu

jastrain

NewYorker wrote:
jastrain wrote:
....


Congratulations on your outstanding results!

You eat only meat,cheese,eggs,fish,poultry and non starchy veggies? No fruit, grain, beans, nuts, oils or dairy?

What does your training routine look like?

Thanks.


for the most part i still eat very few carbs but, i have added fruit and i dont gain weight but i dont burn any more. i go off the diet and eat a lot of junk [i did this summer for a month when i had to travel. i went from 175 to 185 and then went back on the diet for a solid month [no carbs at all and my weight dropped to 170. so, i do go on and off it but if i start to see it coming back[the fast] i find it very easy to stay strict for a month and the fat burns right off--i like to "nip it in the bud" before it gets way out of control--248!! i find this diet to be a very easy and livable way to do it . because i am somewhat of a compulsive person--this diet works well for me. i can eat a lot actually, and i still lose fat. the proteins are -not- stored in your body as fat. you use the nutrients for energy, muscle growth repair and the rest is excreted. unlike carbs where they are stored as fat and you must burn all the carbs in your system and all the glycogen in your liver before the body will begin to burn its own fat stores--this is why it is so hard for people to lose fat on a high carb diet. plus high carb foods aren't as nutrient dense therefore when you restrict the cals you are also restricting the nutrients so you will lose fat but also strength as well--and eventually you will be so hungry you will snap and eat a surplus of cals and because your metabolism has slowed you end up with more fat than you had before when you dieted!!.
with this diet i literally eat as much as i want and the weight[fat] burns off [if i am very strict=no carbs except for green veggies--no fruit] but when i am at my 175[ideal weight] i add fruit and i am fine i dont go up or down. when i am at my 175 i also will allow myself 1 day per week to eat all the carbs that i want [anabolic diet. this works well once the weight is off [ideal weight] i find that allowing myself a full day of carbs does not increase my weight or decrease it. so this works for me when i am 175. but if i go several days the weight comes back fast.
Open User Options Menu

jastrain

Turpin wrote:
jastrain wrote:
Joseph Anderson wrote:
J.W. wrote:
Is it feasible for one to expect to be able to lose fat and gain a reasonable amount of mass simultaneoulsy? If so, how?

Yes, drugs.

Without drugs, the trend I see is that for short periods of time, one may see fat loss and minimal lbm gains. However, the longer one continues losing fat (or how lean they try to become), it becomes impossible to maximize lbm. The strategy then becomes an attempt to retain lbm (or at least minimize losses).

That said, this is only my observation (my clients aren't usually genetic-lottery winners). Others may have experience that differs . . .

i respectively disagree. in my experience once i started {eating clean] eliminating carbs almost entirely i have gained muscle and lost most of my unwanted fat. the low carb/no carb diet is so nutrient dense it feeds the muscle completely yet the proteins are not stored as fat therefore you are feeding the muscle completely yet no fat is being stored--you will be building muscle and burning your own fat at the same time. i went from 248lbs to 175lbs. but more importantly my strength has increased significantly. i have used hit training for 30 years. i know exactly what my strength levels were on all exercises. and i tell you at 45yrs of age my strength/size has increased dramatically in the 2 yrs that i have been eating clean. i was stuck at weighted dips 90lbs for years--i thought i reached my genetic limits. however, over the last 2 years my weighted dips have gone up from 90lbs for 8 reps to 135lbs!!! and all other exercises have also gone up. this works but it is not a diet it is a proper way of eating and it takes time to get used to. after 8 months to a year your body starts to heal and grow and function like it is supposed to--you are supposed to be burning your own fat for energy not stored sugar. and you are supposed to be feeding the muscle for growth [protein] high card restricted cal diets don't work because they are not nutrient dense therefore you will lose fat but also strength. it is very easy to understand once you make the switch to proper eating. your body functions the way it was meant to.try but not for a few weeks it takes at least 8 months to really understand what people like me are talking about. this is the same stuff josh is talking about with the raw eating--it is also low/no carb but eating it raw maximizes the nutrient absorption.this probably is a superior way of eating but that is very hardcore. i believe you can get 99.9% of the result by just getting rid of all of the processed carbs. eat meat,cheese,eggs,fish,poultry and non starchy veggies [green veggies].no sugar,bread rice potatoes read labels make sure it says 0 carbs. it is very easy once you get used to it. and there is a wide variety of things you can eat and spices you can use


Jastrain , It would be great ( & I dare say inspirational to most ) if you could post a before/after pic of your loss & subsequent muscular gain.

Best wishes , T.


i am freaked out posting my face on the internet--maybe it is an irrational fear--but millions of people read this site and i am a little shy to be honest.
but, i have a funny story about my picture. i was pulled over by a cop for speeding and he asked me for my license and registration so i i handed him my license and he said," sir can you turn you head for me". so i did and he said," this is not you on this license". i said," look closely my nose, eyes, etc".. so he did and he said," holy cow you dropped a lot of weight"!!! i told him yeah, i hit my 40s and all of a sudden the i kept getting fatter, and fatter so i decided to do the atkins diet [meat, fish, chicken,cheese, eggs, and green veggies] and in a year i was a different person plus, i do the weight lifting 1 time per week [high intensity].
he then, said, "good for you"--he handed my license back and said you can go--just slow down a bit!!!
i felt very proud of my self that i was un recognizable[the size of my head was a biggg difference. i gain weight in my head, and gut the most. and i was happy not getting a ticket!!!
people like to see results. i never realized that i would receive that kinda applause for my training result-- getting pulled over that day made me feel like a million bucks!!! i was very happy
Open User Options Menu

Turpin

jastrain wrote:
NewYorker wrote:
jastrain wrote:
....


Congratulations on your outstanding results!

You eat only meat,cheese,eggs,fish,poultry and non starchy veggies? No fruit, grain, beans, nuts, oils or dairy?

What does your training routine look like?

Thanks.

for the most part i still eat very few carbs but, i have added fruit and i dont gain weight but i dont burn any more. i go off the diet and eat a lot of junk [i did this summer for a month when i had to travel. i went from 175 to 185 and then went back on the diet for a solid month [no carbs at all and my weight dropped to 170. so, i do go on and off it but if i start to see it coming back[the fast] i find it very easy to stay strict for a month and the fat burns right off--i like to "nip it in the bud" before it gets way out of control--248!! i find this diet to be a very easy and livable way to do it . because i am somewhat of a compulsive person--this diet works well for me. i can eat a lot actually, and i still lose fat. the proteins are -not- stored in your body as fat. you use the nutrients for energy, muscle growth repair and the rest is excreted. unlike carbs where they are stored as fat and you must burn all the carbs in your system and all the glycogen in your liver before the body will begin to burn its own fat stores--this is why it is so hard for people to lose fat on a high carb diet. plus high carb foods aren't as nutrient dense therefore when you restrict the cals you are also restricting the nutrients so you will lose fat but also strength as well--and eventually you will be so hungry you will snap and eat a surplus of cals and because your metabolism has slowed you end up with more fat than you had before when you dieted!!.
with this diet i literally eat as much as i want and the weight[fat] burns off [if i am very strict=no carbs except for green veggies--no fruit] but when i am at my 175[ideal weight] i add fruit and i am fine i dont go up or down. when i am at my 175 i also will allow myself 1 day per week to eat all the carbs that i want [anabolic diet. this works well once the weight is off [ideal weight] i find that allowing myself a full day of carbs does not increase my weight or decrease it. so this works for me when i am 175. but if i go several days the weight comes back fast.



Since my return to a higher carb approach , ( after an initial re-gain of about 6-8 lbs ) I am now back at my targeted weight 0f 165lb by simply increasing my cardio activity ( just a little ) over the past few weeks. I look/feel a lot better on the higher carbs , and I have only this week Started on the `ideal` routine ( 3 way split ) which I intend to do for 6 cycles training Sun/Thurs/Tues/Sun.

T.
Open User Options Menu

Joseph Anderson

jastrain wrote:
...but millions of people read this site...


Now that is funny!!!
Open User Options Menu

jastrain

Joseph Anderson wrote:
jastrain wrote:
...but millions of people read this site...

Now that is funny!!!


maybe not millions but, i bet it is close--dr darden sold a lot of book for over 2 decades--i wouldn't be surprised. a lot of people read these sites but do not post.
nautilus was everywhere in the 80s and 90s. dr darden was really the only manual for people to read to understand how to use these machines. back in the early 80s there were very few personal trainers [this was probably a good thing] so people had to learn from dr dardens books to know how use these machines. nautilus when it first came out there were no other machines that even looked anything like them. the machines looked very complicated when they first started showing up in gyms. millions of people bought dr dardens books to learn how to use these things. so there are a lot of old timers that know dr darden and his approach and i bet many read the internet exercise sites many would search out dr darden for current info and find this site. i know i did.
Open User Options Menu

hdlifter

J.W. wrote:
Is it feasible for one to expect to be able to lose fat and gain a reasonable amount of mass simultaneoulsy? If so, how?


Personally I have seen this happen time and time again. Mike (Mentzer) considered this a rare trait, so I'm unsure how common it actually is, but I'm thankful Mother Nature at least bestowed me with that trait...short-changing me on the 20" arm blessing.

Open User Options Menu

crazeeJZ

Joseph Anderson wrote:
jastrain wrote:
...but millions of people read this site...

Now that is funny!!!


What else might he be "miscalculating" in this thread?

Lol, just kidding jastrain!

Open User Options Menu

crazeeJZ

hdlifter wrote:
J.W. wrote:
Is it feasible for one to expect to be able to lose fat and gain a reasonable amount of mass simultaneoulsy? If so, how?

Personally I have seen this happen time and time again. Mike (Mentzer) considered this a rare trait, so I'm unsure how common it actually is, but I'm thankful Mother Nature at least bestowed me with that trait...short-changing me on the 20" arm blessing.



Naturally high testosterone maybe? Seems likely since the others who might be able to do it are those on drugs.

Open User Options Menu

hdlifter

crazeeJZ wrote:
hdlifter wrote:
Naturally high testosterone maybe? Seems likely since the others who might be able to do it are those on drugs.



Possibly. Having taken care of myself all my life must factor in as I have never smoked, drank twice (12 and 24).

Gene wise I am definitely blessed...my Dad at 85yo is as mobile as ever. He still climbs on the roof to fetch my kids balls. His doc was shocked awhile ago that he's got to that age yet isn't on any type of medication
Open User Options Menu

Tony Williams

jastrain wrote:
NewYorker wrote:
jastrain wrote:
....


Congratulations on your outstanding results!

You eat only meat,cheese,eggs,fish,poultry and non starchy veggies? No fruit, grain, beans, nuts, oils or dairy?

What does your training routine look like?

Thanks.

for the most part i still eat very few carbs but, i have added fruit and i dont gain weight but i dont burn any more. i go off the diet and eat a lot of junk [i did this summer for a month when i had to travel. i went from 175 to 185 and then went back on the diet for a solid month [no carbs at all and my weight dropped to 170. so, i do go on and off it but if i start to see it coming back[the fast] i find it very easy to stay strict for a month and the fat burns right off--i like to "nip it in the bud" before it gets way out of control--248!! i find this diet to be a very easy and livable way to do it . because i am somewhat of a compulsive person--this diet works well for me. i can eat a lot actually, and i still lose fat. the proteins are -not- stored in your body as fat. you use the nutrients for energy, muscle growth repair and the rest is excreted. unlike carbs where they are stored as fat and you must burn all the carbs in your system and all the glycogen in your liver before the body will begin to burn its own fat stores--this is why it is so hard for people to lose fat on a high carb diet. plus high carb foods aren't as nutrient dense therefore when you restrict the cals you are also restricting the nutrients so you will lose fat but also strength as well--and eventually you will be so hungry you will snap and eat a surplus of cals and because your metabolism has slowed you end up with more fat than you had before when you dieted!!.
with this diet i literally eat as much as i want and the weight[fat] burns off [if i am very strict=no carbs except for green veggies--no fruit] but when i am at my 175[ideal weight] i add fruit and i am fine i dont go up or down. when i am at my 175 i also will allow myself 1 day per week to eat all the carbs that i want [anabolic diet. this works well once the weight is off [ideal weight] i find that allowing myself a full day of carbs does not increase my weight or decrease it. so this works for me when i am 175. but if i go several days the weight comes back fast.


jastrain,

My memory fails me.

Are you on the Atkins plan or another?

And are you of the opinion that carbs are the chief culprit in people developing diabetes or pre-diabetes.

Tony
Open User Options Menu

Tomislav

New York, USA

jastrain wrote:
Tomislav wrote:
jastrain,
excellent results; you have clearly built a lot of muscle. However your training experience actually matches what Joe described - you minimized muscle and strength loss while dieting to lose weight. To illustrate, before dieting you were stronger:

Weighing 250 and dipping with 90 lbs = 330 lbs of resistance for 8 reps.

After dieting:

Weighing 175 and dipping with 135 lbs = 310 lbs of resistance for 8 reps.

While that's a lot of muscle and strength to maintain for such a drop in weight (and doubtless your appearance improved) there is no denying that after two years of heavy training you lost muscle and strength to the tune of 20 lbs off your heavy presses (dips).

I agree that at 250 you probably had some room to build muscle (extra fat), but had you maintained your weight for two years while training heavy you could have used that room for a composition change and would likely be dipping with more than 330 lbs for 8 reps - you would have gotten stronger and built more muscle instead of losing muscle and getting weaker.


well, i should have been more clear. i was actually maxed out at 90lbs on the dip about 10 years ago. and my weight really never got more than 190lbs. i really started packing on the lbs when i moved in with my girlfriend--she cooks big and high carb stuff. so in 6 years i went from 190 to 248--but my strength never broke through that 90lbs level. it was only a year and a half or so that i busted through the 90 and moved to the 135lbs. i have figured the math out before--and i believe i lost 70lbs and went up 30lbs on the dip when i factored in the various weight increases minus fat loss


jastrain,
I'm a bit mystified; if you weighed 250 lbs and dipped with 90 lbs that's more resistance than if you weigh 175 and dip with 135.
I don't doubt you've lost fat and have improved appearance, but it's clear you lost muscle and strength along with the fat since you can't lift as much weight anymore.

If you had gained muscle while losing fat as you claimed then you would have gotten stronger; you're confusing relative strength with absolute strength. You have improved your strength to bodyweight ratio because you lost a lot of fat while minimizing muscle loss.



Open User Options Menu

krazy kaju

Food for thought:

I've seen some bodybuilders (e.g. this guy - http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=Uut4zYmCl64 ) espouse the philosophy of "eating when hungry." The idea is that when you eat only when you're truly hungry (not when you're craving food and not according to some predetermined plan), you'll only eat when your body truly needs the nutrients. This will help you gain mass and strength while losing fat.

If you want to shed fat on such a diet, then you'll have to cycle carbs... By eating low carb and forcing your body into ketosis, you'll trick your body into not knowing the difference between burning dietary fat and burning bodyfat. Thus, you can go low on calories and not feel hungry, which means you will burn more fat... or at least so their hypothesis goes.

Of course, the trick is to first get used to being in ketosis - and the way to do that is to follow a hypercaloric ketogenic diet for the first two weeks. Eating thousands of calories of fat above your BMR will provide your body with the energy it needs while making the rough transition from burning carbs for energy to burning long-chain tryglycerides. Also, you're not allowed to eat any short or medium-chain tryglycerides on such a diet (so no coconut products), as that will inhibit your ability to turn LCTs (the fat your bodyfat is made of) into energy.

Once you get accustomed to burning LCTs for energy, you can switch to a lower calorie, "eating when hungry" approach and see if it helps you any. Just carb up once every few days to fuel your workouts and see how it works for you.

Also, make sure to consume lots of healthy fats while dieting like this, in order to keep your health in order - so lots of DHA & EPA from fish oil, lots of ALA from flaxseed products, lots of oleic acid from olive oil, and lots of CLA from supplements (or grassfed beef & dairy).

Once you cut down to a low bodyfat percentage, you can go back to a higher carb diet. Just continue "eating when hungry" and you shouldn't gain too much in the way of bodyfat.

This is, at least, what I've read on other forums. I'm already giving "eating when hungry" a go myself, so we'll see how it turns out. But because I'm not really seeking to lose any more bodyfat at this point, I am not trying the cutting ketogenic diet at this point.
Open User Options Menu

krazy kaju

Here's a study that backs up what I'm saying: http://www.ajcn.org/...7/1/44.abstract

If you follow a ketogenic diet, then you'll be less hungry. Thus, following a ketogenic diet will cause you to lose bodyfat more effortlessly than following a "normal" diet that supplies your body with enough glucose to burn for energy.

The idea being that you should get your body used to burning fat for energy, instead of carbs. That way, your body will have a continuous supply of energy from bodyfat, so you won't experience as much hunger/appetite as you would if your body were using carbs for energy (in which case you'd constantly have to supply your body with carbs to feed your body).

Make sense?

I think another benefit of such a diet is that it's relatively easy to get all of the healthy fats that have been shown to have positive effects on fatloss, like CLA, ALA, EPA, and DHA as long as you eat the right foods: omega 3 eggs, grassfed beef, fatty fish, and flaxseed.

Also, it should be relatively easy to get all of the vitamins/minerals you need on such a diet from eggs, liver, broccoli, and spinach. You can always supplement with a multivitamin/mineral, of course. And when you "carb up" once every few days, you can eat nutrient-dense fruit, like apples, instead of other sources of carbs, like pasta.
Open User Options Menu

gerry-hitman

Tomislav wrote:
jastrain wrote:
Tomislav wrote:
jastrain,
excellent results; you have clearly built a lot of muscle. However your training experience actually matches what Joe described - you minimized muscle and strength loss while dieting to lose weight. To illustrate, before dieting you were stronger:

Weighing 250 and dipping with 90 lbs = 330 lbs of resistance for 8 reps.

After dieting:

Weighing 175 and dipping with 135 lbs = 310 lbs of resistance for 8 reps.

While that's a lot of muscle and strength to maintain for such a drop in weight (and doubtless your appearance improved) there is no denying that after two years of heavy training you lost muscle and strength to the tune of 20 lbs off your heavy presses (dips).

I agree that at 250 you probably had some room to build muscle (extra fat), but had you maintained your weight for two years while training heavy you could have used that room for a composition change and would likely be dipping with more than 330 lbs for 8 reps - you would have gotten stronger and built more muscle instead of losing muscle and getting weaker.


well, i should have been more clear. i was actually maxed out at 90lbs on the dip about 10 years ago. and my weight really never got more than 190lbs. i really started packing on the lbs when i moved in with my girlfriend--she cooks big and high carb stuff. so in 6 years i went from 190 to 248--but my strength never broke through that 90lbs level. it was only a year and a half or so that i busted through the 90 and moved to the 135lbs. i have figured the math out before--and i believe i lost 70lbs and went up 30lbs on the dip when i factored in the various weight increases minus fat loss


jastrain,
I'm a bit mystified; if you weighed 250 lbs and dipped with 90 lbs that's more resistance than if you weigh 175 and dip with 135.
I don't doubt you've lost fat and have improved appearance, but it's clear you lost muscle and strength along with the fat since you can't lift as much weight anymore.

If you had gained muscle while losing fat as you claimed then you would have gotten stronger; you're confusing relative strength with absolute strength. You have improved your strength to bodyweight ratio because you lost a lot of fat while minimizing muscle loss.





Wrong.

Fat and water also have the effect of increasing strength.

His weight to strength variable DID increase in favor of strength, while losing overall strength due to the very large fat and water loss.

In short he IS stronger with the muscle he now has after fat loss, yet at the same time, has lost overall strength due to the loss of overall size.

And he looks a hell of allot better now than he did as a fat bastard.
Open User Options Menu
1 | 2 | Next | Last
H.I.T. Acceptable Use Policy