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For Me, This Was a Great Mr Olympia
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Turpin

Samir Bannout winning the 83` Mr Olympia with a terrific Mohammed Makkawy a close second.
Many felt that Bertil Fox was robbed , but personally I thought the placings were justified here.

http://www.youtube.com/...feature=related

T.

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Tony Williams

Turpin wrote:
Samir Bannout winning the 83` Mr Olympia with a terrific Mohammed Makkawy a close second.
Many felt that Bertil Fox was robbed , but personally I thought the placings were justified here.

http://www.youtube.com/...feature=related

T.


Bertil Fox was cheated ... out of death ... after killing his fiancee and her mother in 1998.

His death sentence was commuted to life in prison. Fox will live out his life in a cell on the Caribbean island of St. Kitts.

Tony
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Tony Williams

"The Muscle Murders" -- "Sports Illustrated", May 18, 1998:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c...
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Turpin

Tony Williams wrote:
Turpin wrote:
Samir Bannout winning the 83` Mr Olympia with a terrific Mohammed Makkawy a close second.
Many felt that Bertil Fox was robbed , but personally I thought the placings were justified here.

http://www.youtube.com/...feature=related

T.


Bertil Fox was cheated ... out of death ... after killing his fiancee and her mother in 1998.

His death sentence was commuted to life in prison. Fox will live out his life in a cell on the Caribbean island of St. Kitts.

Tony


Tony , I know/read much about Bertil Fox and the murders he committed. This was about the 1983 Mr Olympia not a murder trial or its outcome.

T.
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Tony Williams

With Bannout, and others, of that era, how much of his physique is a result of hard work, how much is a result of drug use, and how much is a result of genetics?

Tony
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jn6047

Tony Williams wrote:
With Bannout, and others, of that era, how much of his physique is a result of hard work, how much is a result of drug use, and how much is a result of genetics?

Tony


Take away any of those three, and you don't have the finished product. How much does it matter?

jn6047
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Tony Williams

jn6047 wrote:
Tony Williams wrote:
With Bannout, and others, of that era, how much of his physique is a result of hard work, how much is a result of drug use, and how much is a result of genetics?

Tony

Take away any of those three, and you don't have the finished product. How much does it matter?

jn6047


It doesn't matter.

It's curiosity.

Could a man with genetics equal to Bannout's who trains as hard as Bannout did look close to what Bannout did?

If not, then bodybuilding is simply a contest of who has the best drugs and utilizes them the best.

Tony
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HeavyHitter32

I think anyone who reaches this level has great genetics. Drugs will not turn an average genetic individual into anything like that. I also think hard work and obviously dieting went into getting to that condition.

Looking at that video and some other images, Bertil Fox's muscle density and thickness was still astounding even if that is not the only factor in deciding the Mr. O.

Overall, even with the drugs, the 80s were the last decade of "reasonable" bodybuilding competing at this level where the physiques were still individualistic and symmetric - not bloated out as we saw began to happen in the 90s.
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jn6047

Tony Williams wrote:

It doesn't matter.

It's curiosity.

Could a man with genetics equal to Bannout's who trains as hard as Bannout did look close to what Bannout did?

If not, then bodybuilding is simply a contest of who has the best drugs and utilizes them the best.

Tony


I beleive that drugs give an edge, but they are not a replacement for hard work, nutrition, and dedication. Would Samir Bannout have looked the same without drugs? Certainly he would have been very similar, likely a slightly smaller softer version of what he was. Is his physique or something similar attainable to the natural today? I believe so. I look at Skip Lacour, he has an incredible physique and certainly would not have looked out of place during Samir Bannout's time, if anything Skip would have been an oddity in conditioning because of how lean he can get.

From my perspective pro-bodybuilding today is not just about drugs. Take away the drugs and the majority of top competitors would still be at the top. It is an even playing field.

jn6047
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Tony Williams

jn6047 wrote:
Tony Williams wrote:

It doesn't matter.

It's curiosity.

Could a man with genetics equal to Bannout's who trains as hard as Bannout did look close to what Bannout did?

If not, then bodybuilding is simply a contest of who has the best drugs and utilizes them the best.

Tony

I beleive that drugs give an edge, but they are not a replacement for hard work, nutrition, and dedication. Would Samir Bannout have looked the same without drugs? Certainly he would have been very similar, likely a slightly smaller softer version of what he was. Is his physique or something similar attainable to the natural today? I believe so. I look at Skip Lacour, he has an incredible physique and certainly would not have looked out of place during Samir Bannout's time, if anything Skip would have been an oddity in conditioning because of how lean he can get.

From my perspective pro-bodybuilding today is not just about drugs. Take away the drugs and the majority of top competitors would still be at the top. It is an even playing field.

jn6047


Do you think the physiques displayed in, for example, Mr. Olympia today are aesthetically superior to those 30, 40 or 50 years ago?

Tony
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Turpin

Tony Williams wrote:
With Bannout, and others, of that era, how much of his physique is a result of hard work, how much is a result of drug use, and how much is a result of genetics?

Tony


Id say this era ( the 80`s ) is/was the last where ones genetic makeup ( good/bad ) and the wide variation of physique type was still clearly visible , the drugs simply enhanced such.

To-date no one has real weak areas on display and if they genetically are at a disadvantage then there are a myriad of solutions that lie outwith simple hard work to bring up lagging bodyparts.

Bannout had a great physique , very pleasing and flowing lines with leg development ( longer musculo/skeletal makeup especially in the lower leg ) that enhanced these flowing lines.
To-date a lower body like this (or Zanes ) would not even win at regional level competition. Cutlers legs and lower skeletal makeup is more like that of a comic book hero ( The `Hulk` or The `Thing` ) than aesthetically pleasing.

Makkawy ( second place ) was VERY good even by todays standards , in my opinion.

T.
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jn6047

Tony Williams wrote:

Do you think the physiques displayed in, for example, Mr. Olympia today are aesthetically superior to those 30, 40 or 50 years ago?

Tony


Aesthetics is purely an opinion. There is no right and wrong answer since it is personal preference. I see the appeal in a physique like Mike Mentzer just as I do in a physique like Ronnie Coleman. If I could look like anyone it would be a cross between Dorian Yates and Kevin Levrone.

jn6047
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HeavyHitter32

jn6047 wrote:
Tony Williams wrote:

Do you think the physiques displayed in, for example, Mr. Olympia today are aesthetically superior to those 30, 40 or 50 years ago?

Tony

Aesthetics is purely an opinion. There is no right and wrong answer since it is personal preference. jn6047


I'm not so sure.

Once you establish criteria for such, no one can claim a guy with 14" calves, 23" thighs with a 50" chest and 20" arms has good aeshetics.

Would in their right mind would say Steve Reeves had bad aeshetics?

There has to be criteria and it's not purely subjective.
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dhartnet

New Hampshire, USA

Bodybuilding was never the same for me after 1980. Samir looked great, but times were a changing. I still have a liking for the old-school guys (Arnold, Draper, Zane, etc.).. (Though Lee Haney is / was one of my faves, he kept it real, old school build, small waist). Once Yates came around (Insulin, HGH bloat), it was all over..
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jn6047

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
jn6047 wrote:
Tony Williams wrote:

Do you think the physiques displayed in, for example, Mr. Olympia today are aesthetically superior to those 30, 40 or 50 years ago?

Tony

Aesthetics is purely an opinion. There is no right and wrong answer since it is personal preference. jn6047


I'm not so sure.

Once you establish criteria for such, no one can claim a guy with 14" calves, 23" thighs with a 50" chest and 20" arms has good aeshetics.

Would in their right mind would say Steve Reeves had bad aeshetics?

There has to be criteria and it's not purely subjective.


I disagree. What you are describing to me is symetry and proportion. Easthetics is in the eye of the beholder, it is individual because what you might think is attractive I might find revolting, or vice versa. To me Tates has a desirable look, and Reeves or Zane I find lacking. Certainly they were symmetrical and proportional, but I do not find their physiques appealing. That is my personal preference.

jn6047

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HeavyHitter32

jn6047 wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
jn6047 wrote:
Tony Williams wrote:

Do you think the physiques displayed in, for example, Mr. Olympia today are aesthetically superior to those 30, 40 or 50 years ago?

Tony

Aesthetics is purely an opinion. There is no right and wrong answer since it is personal preference. jn6047


I'm not so sure.

Once you establish criteria for such, no one can claim a guy with 14" calves, 23" thighs with a 50" chest and 20" arms has good aeshetics.

Would in their right mind would say Steve Reeves had bad aeshetics?

There has to be criteria and it's not purely subjective.


I disagree. What you are describing to me is symetry and proportion. Easthetics is in the eye of the beholder, it is individual because what you might think is attractive I might find revolting, or vice versa. To me Tates has a desirable look, and Reeves or Zane I find lacking. Certainly they were symmetrical and proportional, but I do not find their physiques appealing. That is my personal preference.

jn6047



I was speaking more from a competition perspective. No one can argue what you like or dislike. However, what you are saying is tantamount to someone claiming a 400 pound woman in a bikini is gorgeous, or that someone like Southbeach looks great because it's all in the eye of the beholder for a contest. Do you see how ridiculous that is? Aesthetics is not build around pure subjectivity. There is objective criteria from which to judge! It needs to be defined first.
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jn6047

Well, the old descriptions of ifbb judging were symmetry round, muscularity round, and posing round. There is no aesthetics round. Hence, it is subjective.

jn6047
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HeavyHitter32

jn6047 wrote:
Well, the old descriptions of ifbb judging were symmetry round, muscularity round, and posing round. There is no aesthetics round. Hence, it is subjective.

jn6047


The criteria has changed. Two different things.

According to what you are saying, a 140 pound 6'5" guy could be considered to have great aesthetics from a judge. Ridiculous.

There is objective criteria to be judged upon which includes shape, definition, proportion, size, etc. The emphasis on these things can change, but it's not whimsical which is why most competitors look more similar than different at every level of competition through the years.

Again, for the same reason, you're not going to see a 400 pound woman in a bikini contest. According to what you are saying, it could happen. lol Yeah right.
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jn6047

Your opinion differs from mine. You will not change my opinion, I won't change yours. We will just have to agree to disagree.

jn6047
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HeavyHitter32

jn6047 wrote:
Your opinion differs from mine. You will not change my opinion, I won't change yours. We will just have to agree to disagree.

jn6047


But, it's not just my opinion and yours is wrong. It's a FACT: talk to anyone who judges a bodybuilding contest and they will tell you there is CRITERIA from which to judge the person on stage. It's not purely whimsical as you think it is because if it was, anyone could enter the IFBB. There are STANDARDS by which to judge. That goes for any reputable contest of any sort and not just bodybuilding.
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Turpin

Even into old age Samir looks impressive.
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HeavyHitter32

Agreed, T.
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Tony Williams

Turpin wrote:
Even into old age Samir looks impressive.


Yes, he looks great.

But since he is only a year older than I am, I would not call him "old".

Seasoned might be better. LOL.

Tony
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BeauMann

Iowa, USA

Turpin wrote:
Even into old age Samir looks impressive.


Non contest pic 2009.
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sgb2112

You think he is natural now?
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