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X-FORCE and Muscle Soreness
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Tony Williams

The reports of soreness in muscles during exercise on the X-Force machines by Dr. Darden and others is quite interesting, in fact, the most interesting development so far.

1. What is occurring in the muscles that causes soreness using X-Force that reportedly fails to occur on other machines or free weights?

2. Is soreness in the muscles while exercising a good sign ... or not?

3. Are the preliminary reports that the soreness is in the belly of the muscle rather than the insertion point a possible sign that X-Force is more efficient at "working" particular muscles?

Any thoughts, theories, educated guesses, guesses?

Tony
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Tony Williams wrote:
The reports of soreness in muscles during exercise on the X-Force machines by Dr. Darden and others is quite interesting, in fact, the most interesting development so far.

1. What is occurring in the muscles that causes soreness using X-Force that reportedly fails to occur on other machines or free weights?

2. Is soreness in the muscles while exercising a good sign ... or not?

3. Are the preliminary reports that the soreness is in the belly of the muscle rather than the insertion point a possible sign that X-Force is more efficient at "working" particular muscles?

Any thoughts, theories, educated guesses, guesses?

Tony


===Scott==
I'm curious as to what exactly is ment by this muscle soreness during the exercise? Are we talking burn or ache or what?? My muscles get what I call sore after a workout but what I feel during a set seems to something other than soreness. Maybe that can be explained better?
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overfiftylifter

Did the Omni equipment which I believe was negative accentuated produce the same soreness? Perhaps Dr. Darden can provide a comparison of the different effects?
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jn6047

Hey Scott, I don't think there can be an answer to your question until we come up with a definition for soreness; one that is specific and excludes all other possibilities or gradients of soreness. Likely what you have felt isnt soreness at all.

True soreness is something that can only be felt on these negative machines and only if you follow Dr. Darden's methodologies (that only work effectively on the machines). Whatever you are feeling I can assure you is not soreness, it is not effective stimulus, and the development you have now is in spite of your training due to your obvious enhanced genetics.

jn6047
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southbeach

Ay time the muscle fibers and supporting connective tissue is loaded to a greater extent on the positive and negative (thru full rep) the greater the expected soreness. Xforce is really really good on the negative especially?

I don't think that's a surprise here. is it?
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Tomislav

New York, USA

I've only experienced DOMS the next day after training but have heard of other athletes experiencing DOMS just a few hours later.

The X-Force seems to have a really interesting effect here - I think predominantly loading the muscle belly is going to allow for higher tensions and that coupled with the increased load on the negative this is potentially multiplied.

I wonder if an advanced athlete would have to be really careful not to overtrain with X-Force equipment; need twice as much recovery time or something like that.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

jn6047 wrote:
Hey Scott, I don't think there can be an answer to your question until we come up with a definition for soreness; one that is specific and excludes all other possibilities or gradients of soreness. Likely what you have felt isnt soreness at all.

True soreness is something that can only be felt on these negative machines and only if you follow Dr. Darden's methodologies (that only work effectively on the machines). Whatever you are feeling I can assure you is not soreness, it is not effective stimulus, and the development you have now is in spite of your training due to your obvious enhanced genetics.

jn6047


==Scott==
I find it interesting that you have concluded that what I do does not result in effective stimulus and all I have is based on genetics. How can you possibly know that what I do doesn't produce effective stimulus?? Me, enhanced genetics, ha ha..I guess you're trying to say that I need to use X-Force or REN-EX machines to get effective stimulus?? Brother....
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

southbeach wrote:
Ay time the muscle fibers and supporting connective tissue is loaded to a greater extent on the positive and negative (thru full rep) the greater the expected soreness. Xforce is really really good on the negative especially?

I don't think that's a surprise here. is it?


==Scott==
Yes, but like I said before, what is ment by sorness? I get an ache or burn when I do my sets that hurts like the dickens sometimes but I don't consider that soreness? Soreness is something that seems to comes a while after working out, not during??
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jn6047

Sorry Scott, I was trying to be funny; it was a parody towards some of the other comments we have seen on other threads.

jn6047
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Hitit

Dr. Darden,

See what you've started now?

lol
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Tony Williams

southbeach wrote:
Ay time the muscle fibers and supporting connective tissue is loaded to a greater extent on the positive and negative (thru full rep) the greater the expected soreness. Xforce is really really good on the negative especially?

I don't think that's a surprise here. is it?


The difference is Dr. Darden and others reported the same soreness you experience hours or a day or so after exercising DURING the exercise.

Tony
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Tony Williams

entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Ay time the muscle fibers and supporting connective tissue is loaded to a greater extent on the positive and negative (thru full rep) the greater the expected soreness. Xforce is really really good on the negative especially?

I don't think that's a surprise here. is it?

==Scott==
Yes, but like I said before, what is ment by sorness? I get an ache or burn when I do my sets that hurts like the dickens sometimes but I don't consider that soreness? Soreness is something that seems to comes a while after working out, not during??


Dr. Darden said "soreness" -- not lactic acid buildup as well as soreness DURING the exercise which he stated he had never experienced before.

Tony

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entsminger

Virginia, USA

jn6047 wrote:
Sorry Scott, I was trying to be funny; it was a parody towards some of the other comments we have seen on other threads.

jn6047


==Scott==
Ok, that being said I get it now.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Tony Williams wrote:
entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Ay time the muscle fibers and supporting connective tissue is loaded to a greater extent on the positive and negative (thru full rep) the greater the expected soreness. Xforce is really really good on the negative especially?

I don't think that's a surprise here. is it?

==Scott==
Yes, but like I said before, what is ment by sorness? I get an ache or burn when I do my sets that hurts like the dickens sometimes but I don't consider that soreness? Soreness is something that seems to comes a while after working out, not during??

Dr. Darden said "soreness" -- not lactic acid buildup as well as soreness DURING the exercise which he stated he had never experienced before.

Tony



==Scott==
So you think he ment he felt the same soreness we get after a workout during a set?? Hmmm?
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Tony Williams

entsminger wrote:
Tony Williams wrote:
entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Ay time the muscle fibers and supporting connective tissue is loaded to a greater extent on the positive and negative (thru full rep) the greater the expected soreness. Xforce is really really good on the negative especially?

I don't think that's a surprise here. is it?

==Scott==
Yes, but like I said before, what is ment by sorness? I get an ache or burn when I do my sets that hurts like the dickens sometimes but I don't consider that soreness? Soreness is something that seems to comes a while after working out, not during??

Dr. Darden said "soreness" -- not lactic acid buildup as well as soreness DURING the exercise which he stated he had never experienced before.

Tony



==Scott==
So you think he ment he felt the same soreness we get after a workout during a set?? Hmmm?


Here is exactly what Dr. Darden wrote regarding soreness on X-FORCE:

First post:

"I've used each of the 14 X-Force machines in Gainesville three or four times . . . and I've done seven of them very intensely. The ones I did intensely were amazing. I felt soreness immediately on about the fourth repetition. And yes, I'm talking about muscular soreness during an actual set. It's one of those STRANGE but TRUE sort of things."

Second post in answer to a question I posed to him:

Dr. Darden,

During your career, had you ever before experienced soreness DURING an exercise as you described in your testing of the X-Force machines, or have any of your clients in the past mentioned such soreness while exercising.

Tony

"Tony,

The short answer is NO.

Ellington"

Third post:

"Interestingly . . . Roger Schwab at Main Line Health & Fitness in Philadelphia noted to me today that he and his trainees are experiencing the same "quick" soreness in the belly of the involved muscle. For example, the X-Force Leg Quadriceps targets the belly of the frontal thighs, and the Biceps Curl hits the middle of the front upper arms. With conventional machines you usually feel the effect near the insertions."

Ellington
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Tony Williams

entsminger wrote:
Tony Williams wrote:
entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Ay time the muscle fibers and supporting connective tissue is loaded to a greater extent on the positive and negative (thru full rep) the greater the expected soreness. Xforce is really really good on the negative especially?

I don't think that's a surprise here. is it?

==Scott==
Yes, but like I said before, what is ment by sorness? I get an ache or burn when I do my sets that hurts like the dickens sometimes but I don't consider that soreness? Soreness is something that seems to comes a while after working out, not during??

Dr. Darden said "soreness" -- not lactic acid buildup as well as soreness DURING the exercise which he stated he had never experienced before.

Tony



==Scott==
So you think he ment he felt the same soreness we get after a workout during a set?? Hmmm?


Scott,

Well Dr. Darden did indicate he was quite sore the day after but better the next day if I remember correctly.

But even after two days, I believe he reported that he did not feel recovered enough to workout again on X-FORCE.

I would love to try them.

And Florida is usually nicer than Texas this time of year although it was 80 F (27 C) in Dallas today.

Tony
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Tony Williams

Tony Williams wrote:
entsminger wrote:
Tony Williams wrote:
entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Ay time the muscle fibers and supporting connective tissue is loaded to a greater extent on the positive and negative (thru full rep) the greater the expected soreness. Xforce is really really good on the negative especially?

I don't think that's a surprise here. is it?

==Scott==
Yes, but like I said before, what is ment by sorness? I get an ache or burn when I do my sets that hurts like the dickens sometimes but I don't consider that soreness? Soreness is something that seems to comes a while after working out, not during??

Dr. Darden said "soreness" -- not lactic acid buildup as well as soreness DURING the exercise which he stated he had never experienced before.

Tony



==Scott==
So you think he ment he felt the same soreness we get after a workout during a set?? Hmmm?

Scott,

Well Dr. Darden did indicate he was quite sore the day after but better the next day if I remember correctly.

But even after two days, I believe he reported that he did not feel recovered enough to workout again on X-FORCE.

I would love to try them.

And Florida is usually nicer than Texas this time of year although it was 80 F (27 C) in Dallas today.

Tony


OK, here is what Dr. Darden stated about his workout and the days following:

"bobj wrote:
How was the soreness the following
day(s)? Did you feel exhausted from the workouts?

Yes, the brief workout exhausted me. I needed some extra sleep. The soreness the day after was not all that bad, but it seemed to be deeper than normal. The next day after that I felt great . . . though not great enough to do another workout.

Ellington
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Ellington Darden

I worked intensely on 2/20/12 on seven X-Force machines and felt significant muscular soreness the day after and for two more days. I did not feel fully recovered until today 3/1/12, when I trained again on the same machines. That was a total of 10 days between workouts.

Interestingly, I feel like I'm only going to be lightly sore tomorrow.

Ellington
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Tony Williams

Ellington Darden wrote:
I worked intensely on 2/20/12 on seven X-Force machines and felt significant muscular soreness the day after and for two more days. I did not feel fully recovered until today 3/1/12, when I trained again on the same machines. That was a total of 10 days between workouts.

Interestingly, I feel like I'm only going to be lightly sore tomorrow.

Ellington


Dr. Darden,

During your routine today (3-1), did you notice the same soreness DURING the exercises as you did 10 days ago?

Tony
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Ciccio

Try rest/pause for high (up to 20)reps to failure. Same feeling initially: soreness during the set, rather in the belly of the muscle.

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Tony Williams

Ciccio wrote:
Try rest/pause for high (up to 20)reps to failure. Same feeling initially: soreness during the set, rather in the belly of the muscle.


Although I would consider myself originally a Mentzer, and later a Darden disciple as well, I have never done much rest/pause.

I have been guilty in the past of what most would probably consider excessive amount of negative-only reps and have experienced extreme soreness but never DURING the exercise.

Usually, as I recall, although it is not something I tracked in my training journals, it seems the soreness began eight to 12 hours after exercising at the earliest.

So Ciccio, if you feel soreness DURING the exercise and pinpoint the soreness in the belly, can one conclude that the exercise is more beneficial than other routines one has used? Or is that too large a leap?

Tony
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Ellington Darden wrote:
I worked intensely on 2/20/12 on seven X-Force machines and felt significant muscular soreness the day after and for two more days. I did not feel fully recovered until today 3/1/12, when I trained again on the same machines. That was a total of 10 days between workouts.

Interestingly, I feel like I'm only going to be lightly sore tomorrow.

Ellington


==Scott==
Dr. Darden, I'm struggling with what you mean by soreness during the set. I completely understand soreness after a workout but am confused about it during a set. Can you better explain what you are feeling during the set and how that soreness might differ from lactic acid burn or the pain from a pumped up muscle that one might get from a more standard execise?
Thanks
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Ellington Darden

Scott,

The first time I trained intensely on X-Force at Cirulli's club in Gainesville, I felt a deep soreness in the middle of my pectorals on the third negative rep of the chest press. The resistance seemed to be perfect for me. I struggled to get five repetitions.

Now, I've trained with some form of negative-accentuated exercise off and on since 1971. I experienced Arthur's Omni machines, guys standing on the weight stacks, and the regular types of negatives that most of us apply. But I've never felt such a deep soreness during the actual exercise. Never!

So what's happening?

I'm not exactly sure. But I believe it's probably related to a more thorough tearing of the involved actin and myosin elements in the muscle.

Something "different" from what I've experienced in the past is occurring -- that's for sure.

Ellington
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Ellington Darden wrote:
Scott,

The first time I trained intensely on X-Force at Cirulli's club in Gainesville, I felt a deep soreness in the middle of my pectorals on the third negative rep of the chest press. The resistance seemed to be perfect for me. I struggled to get five repetitions.

Now, I've trained with some form of negative-accentuated exercise off and on since 1971. I experienced Arthur's Omni machines, guys standing on the weight stacks, and the regular types of negatives that most of us apply. But I've never felt such a deep soreness during the actual exercise. Never!

So what's happening?

I'm not exactly sure. But I believe it's probably related to a more thorough tearing of the involved actin and myosin elements in the muscle.

Something "different" from what I've experienced in the past is occurring -- that's for sure.

Ellington


==Scott==
Yes, I figured with all the omni machines and guys standing on stacks etc etc that you've been engaged with if this new machine can deliver an even deeper muscle soreness it must be some cool machine! Deep muscle soreness by the 3rd rep! That seems to qualify as getting the deepest inroad in the shortest amount of time!
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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

My guess would be this is proof the X Force loads the added resistance in a perfect manner. That is, the extra tension gets right on to the target muscle(s) rather than being overwhelling (like many N.A. approaches) and causing outroading.

Regards,
Andrew
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