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Forms of Resistance - Electronic
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southbeach

Something Dr Darden said in the "X-Force" thread started me thinking again about forms of resistance other than the weight-stack. Don't want to derail his thread so I start another here.

Specifically ELECTRONIC RESISTANCE. Why can't engineers come up with an electronic CIRCUIT to closely mimic the "feel" of a heavy weight stack traveling up and down against gravity?

We have computer chips that are a million times now more powerful than those that sent (and brought back) men from the moon! This is the 21st century, why can't we get a circuit that feels as good or better than dead weight??!!

Does anyone understand this? If so please enlighten me.
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Tony Williams

southbeach wrote:
Something Dr Darden said in the "X-Force" thread started me thinking again about forms of resistance other than the weight-stack. Don't want to derail his thread so I start another here.

Specifically ELECTRONIC RESISTANCE. Why can't engineers come up with an electronic CIRCUIT to closely mimic the "feel" of a heavy weight stack traveling up and down against gravity?

We have computer chips that are a million times now more powerful than those that sent (and brought back) men from the moon! This is the 21st century, why can't we get a circuit that feels as good or better than dead weight??!!

Does anyone understand this? If so please enlighten me.


Didn't AJ discuss this once upon a time?

Tony
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DNAHelix

New York, USA

That would be awesome and would allow for perfect drop sets.


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karthik2504

The ARXFIT machines by Randy Rindfleisch and the Efficient Exercise team is a great step in this direction. They allow the performance of different protocols in a safe and efficient manner, provided the proper usage of the equipment is learned well by the user like any other tool. Its a great line of equipment and their ARXFIT Omni equipment is one of the best personal (home) training equipment that money can buy. I am saving for one very soon. Combined with their proprietary software it can give any commercial exercise equipment a serious run for its money. Like any equipment, the ARX has had a developmental phase through which it had received some criticism for being VERY highly intense. Most of the few flaws have been eradicated and the ARX in its production guise is a great training tool in this direction. Do visit their homepage @ http://arxfit.com/ and be sure to check out all their youtube videos as well as the videos on the efficient exercise page. Intense stuff!!!

Karthik
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southbeach

Been thinking a bit more about this and the problem may lie not with creating the circuit but with difficulty making the Servomechanism to carry out the instructions?

Just thinking off top of my head..I wish a few engineers would show up.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

southbeach wrote:
...Why can't engineers come up with an electronic CIRCUIT to closely mimic the "feel" of a heavy weight stack traveling up and down against gravity?

We have computer chips that are a million times now more powerful than those that sent (and brought back) men from the moon! This is the 21st century, why can't we get a circuit that feels as good or better than dead weight??!!

Does anyone understand this?...


Tony Stark does. They've been using this in Avengers' Mansion for over 2 decades now.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

southbeach wrote:
Something Dr Darden said in the "X-Force" thread started me thinking again about forms of resistance other than the weight-stack. Don't want to derail his thread so I start another here.

Specifically ELECTRONIC RESISTANCE. Why can't engineers come up with an electronic CIRCUIT to closely mimic the "feel" of a heavy weight stack traveling up and down against gravity?

We have computer chips that are a million times now more powerful than those that sent (and brought back) men from the moon! This is the 21st century, why can't we get a circuit that feels as good or better than dead weight??!!

Does anyone understand this? If so please enlighten me.


==Scott==
I'm not sure this is what you are talking about but you must remember the electronic muscle stimulators on the market where you put little pads on the muscle and it makes/ shocks the muscle to contract hard. I remember when I was around Mentzer at the gym we worked out at he was using them. I don't think he thought much of them though.
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southbeach

entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Something Dr Darden said in the "X-Force" thread started me thinking again about forms of resistance other than the weight-stack. Don't want to derail his thread so I start another here.

Specifically ELECTRONIC RESISTANCE. Why can't engineers come up with an electronic CIRCUIT to closely mimic the "feel" of a heavy weight stack traveling up and down against gravity?

We have computer chips that are a million times now more powerful than those that sent (and brought back) men from the moon! This is the 21st century, why can't we get a circuit that feels as good or better than dead weight??!!

Does anyone understand this? If so please enlighten me.

==Scott==
I'm not sure this is what you are talking about but you must remember the electronic muscle stimulators on the market where you put little pads on the muscle and it makes/ shocks the muscle to contract hard. I remember when I was around Mentzer at the gym we worked out at he was using them. I don't think he thought much of them though.


You're not serious are you? Of course thats not what i'm talking about here!
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

southbeach wrote:
entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Something Dr Darden said in the "X-Force" thread started me thinking again about forms of resistance other than the weight-stack. Don't want to derail his thread so I start another here.

Specifically ELECTRONIC RESISTANCE. Why can't engineers come up with an electronic CIRCUIT to closely mimic the "feel" of a heavy weight stack traveling up and down against gravity?

We have computer chips that are a million times now more powerful than those that sent (and brought back) men from the moon! This is the 21st century, why can't we get a circuit that feels as good or better than dead weight??!!

Does anyone understand this? If so please enlighten me.

==Scott==
I'm not sure this is what you are talking about but you must remember the electronic muscle stimulators on the market where you put little pads on the muscle and it makes/ shocks the muscle to contract hard. I remember when I was around Mentzer at the gym we worked out at he was using them. I don't think he thought much of them though.

You're not serious are you? Of course thats not what i'm talking about here!


==Scott==
Yes, I was serious. So are you talking about something like an electro magnet making resistance instead of a weight stack? I'm sure that's been done. I'll take my iron weight stack over any electronic stuff.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

It would be very expensive and only useful for the MedX suit-and-tie trainer crowd.

I couldn't imagine having these in a commercial gym. It's frustrating enough standing behind someone having trouble navigating an ATM or the card pay at the grocery store.

Imagine having to wait at the gym when Gravel Gurdy decides to try one of "those newfangled magneto machines" out? Holy moley.
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southbeach

entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
entsminger wrote:
==Scott==
I'm not sure this is what you are talking about but you must remember the electronic muscle stimulators on the market where you put little pads on the muscle and it makes/ shocks the muscle to contract hard. I remember when I was around Mentzer at the gym we worked out at he was using them. I don't think he thought much of them though.

You're not serious are you? Of course thats not what i'm talking about here!


==Scott==
Yes, I was serious. So are you talking about something like an electro magnet making resistance instead of a weight stack? I'm sure that's been done. I'll take my iron weight stack over any electronic stuff.


No.

I'm referring to creating a digital circuit to model the biophysics of resistance training. Thus eliminating the weight stack and replacing with a electronic circuit to provide the logic to the servo which then applies the resistance.

For example ;
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/...rnumber=1213837

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entsminger

Virginia, USA

southbeach wrote:
entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
entsminger wrote:
==Scott==
I'm not sure this is what you are talking about but you must remember the electronic muscle stimulators on the market where you put little pads on the muscle and it makes/ shocks the muscle to contract hard. I remember when I was around Mentzer at the gym we worked out at he was using them. I don't think he thought much of them though.

You're not serious are you? Of course thats not what i'm talking about here!


==Scott==
Yes, I was serious. So are you talking about something like an electro magnet making resistance instead of a weight stack? I'm sure that's been done. I'll take my iron weight stack over any electronic stuff.

No.

I'm referring to creating a digital circuit to model the biophysics of resistance training. Thus eliminating the weight stack and replacing with a electronic circuit to provide the logic to the servo which then applies the resistance.

For example ;
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/...rnumber=1213837



==Scott==
The only difference in what your suggesting is that it be some kind of computer program/circuit that monitors your body and adjusts the machine to your needs. It still has to have some kind of magnetic or otherwise mechanism to replace the weight stack. We all know that computers never malfuction so imagine the fun every 2 minutes where the machines through out the gym are getting re-booted after they crashed for the 3rd time that day, ha ha. Do we really need a computer to do the thinking for us during a workout? Today so much of what we do is controlled so by some dumb computer. Do we really need to rely on a computer for everything?
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Hitit

There actually was a line of electronic machines some 5 or more years back at my gym but I forget the brand, maybe Life Fitness?

You would key in your weight and the option of having the neg. portion to be accentuated (which you could for sure feel the difference).

It showed a electronic bar scale for the range of motion that you would set on the first rep. This allowed for you to monitor whether you were maintaining the full range in completing each additional rep afterwards.

The rep ranges were set up to 12 I believe before the machine would terminate the set.

I was able to do slow reps on them but not too slow or the machine would stop the rep thinking you were not completing it. I may have been doing 4/4 or 2/4 at the time. I may have tried 10/5 speed and it didn't work.

They were not very popular around the gym which I think is why they stopped carrying them. As Scott inferred, I think most needed to pass ATM 101 before progressing to these.
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southbeach

entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
No.

I'm referring to creating a digital circuit to model the biophysics of resistance training. Thus eliminating the weight stack and replacing with a electronic circuit to provide the logic to the servo which then applies the resistance.

For example ;
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/...rnumber=1213837



==Scott==
The only difference in what your suggesting is that it be some kind of computer program/circuit that monitors your body and adjusts the machine to your needs. It still has to have some kind of magnetic or otherwise mechanism to replace the weight stack. We all know that computers never malfuction so imagine the fun every 2 minutes where the machines through out the gym are getting re-booted after they crashed for the 3rd time that day, ha ha. Do we really need a computer to do the thinking for us during a workout? Today so much of what we do is controlled so by some dumb computer. Do we really need to rely on a computer for everything?


You are pretty much clueless about computers by your own admission.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

southbeach wrote:
entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
No.

I'm referring to creating a digital circuit to model the biophysics of resistance training. Thus eliminating the weight stack and replacing with a electronic circuit to provide the logic to the servo which then applies the resistance.

For example ;
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/...rnumber=1213837



==Scott==
The only difference in what your suggesting is that it be some kind of computer program/circuit that monitors your body and adjusts the machine to your needs. It still has to have some kind of magnetic or otherwise mechanism to replace the weight stack. We all know that computers never malfuction so imagine the fun every 2 minutes where the machines through out the gym are getting re-booted after they crashed for the 3rd time that day, ha ha. Do we really need a computer to do the thinking for us during a workout? Today so much of what we do is controlled so by some dumb computer. Do we really need to rely on a computer for everything?

You are pretty much clueless about computers by your own admission.


==Scott==
In a way I wish that were true. I have to deal with them way to much for my liking.
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Hitit

I also remember the machines I mentioned were down allot for repair which is probably another reason why they were phased out.
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overfiftylifter

I used the computerized LifeCircuit ? strength training system years ago. It was true that the equipment seemed to have a reliability problem but they produced some of the most difficult workouts I and others ever tried. Resisting in the negative accentuated setting heavily depleted your resources. The cadence was if I remember set to a certain speed and if you were too slow or fast it would give you a warning. I can remember the amazing muscular burn you would get from the leg extension and leg press. The local vascular effect was also intense. You would have to hold on to objects getting off the leg machines to prevent falling.

Other than the reliability problem, I believe the LifeCiruit training was just too intense for most trainees.
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jastrain

overfiftylifter wrote:

I used the computerized, LifeCircuit, strength training, system, years ago. It was true that the equipment seemed to have a reliability problem but they produced some of the most difficult workouts I and others ever tried. Resisting in the negative accentuated setting heavily depleted your resources. The cadence was if I remember set to a certain speed and if you were too slow or fast it would give you a warning. I can remember the amazing muscular burn you would get from the leg extension and leg press. The local vascular effect was also intense. You would have to hold on to objects getting off the leg machines to prevent falling.

Other than the reliability problem, I believe the LifeCiruit training was just too intense for most trainees.


a gym i belonged to in nyc, in the early 90s, had these machines also. but, they also had a complete line of nautilus. they had approx 20 machines, most of the old double machines, and a few of the nautilus series 3 [low friction] machines!!! i was, and still am, a complete, "nautilus nut" so, i really didnt take too much time away from my nautilus workouts,to explore these machines for any length of time.

i played around with the arm curl machine for a few workouts. the 1st thing i did was to set the negative 40% higher--even in the early 90s from reading dr dardens books i knew that the negative strength is approx. 40% more. so, that was the 1st thing i did on the machine--being able to program the positive and the negative with the 40% more resistance,i thought, this may have some value???but, after the 1st few reps i hated it!!!

there is something about having a motor that is pushing, or pulling, the movement at a consistent speed--a speed that you cant stop it no matter how hard you try--it just runs, and you have to fight against the motor--but there is no real feed back--even though it did have a read out you could literallty contract as hard as humanly possible in some parts of the rep and take it easy in other parts

so, really, you can fight the moving servo with different levels of effort--even though there is a speed set--within the speed of motion it becomes like an isometric contraction--that is moving

--i find this very hard to communicate, exactly, why i hated these motorized machines--but they felt like isometrics where your effort is as hard as you make it, and it could be literally all over the map--if you contract all out in certain parts of the range.

unlike a typical nautilus weight machine you see the weight go up and down, and you can move it faster and slower on your own volition, and control the speed of movement in different parts of the range creating an even more accurate cam effect to the already pretty great cam on the nautilus.

these machines were just harsh a motor ripping and you are simply contacting as hard as you can against the consistent [non-varying speed of the motor] which basically had the feel of an isometric

so, a workout could be completely different based on how hard you were contracting in different parts of the range--it was all over the map--hated these things and i dont know if i completely understand why --but the isometric is the same feel--and i dont like isometrics-either--but i love going to regular failure,and then doing static holds for good measure.
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overfiftylifter

Jas, I can understand your views about the equipment but I have never worshiped any equipment line and would evaluate the effects rather than the brand name. Exercise equipment are mere tools and one has to find the tools that you find help assist in your physical construction.

We had some Nautilus as well. A set to failure on the electronic equipment seemed to impose a greater challenge to your recovery system/physiology than Nautilus. The relative isometric type effects of the equipment I thought was a advantage with a pretty strong continuous contraction, limited inertia. Based on what I understand now, the blood flow restriction nature of the equipment may enhance hypertrophy.

I also like seeing a weight stack in action but if memory serves you could see how you were performing on the equipment and found this a motivating factor. If I recall, it was almost always a nightmare to get to the 12 rep finale. You would almost pass out on the leg press. When I had others try them the complaints were frequently it was just "too hard" to use which I found to be a compliment to the product line.
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southbeach

Interesting comments.

However, I'm not referring to "electronic" resistance in its current or past forms, such as isokinetic or magmatic or hydraulic or even computer controlled.

My line of thought is the creation of a DIGITAL ELECTRONIC CIRCUIT that MIMICS the feel and resistance of a weigh stack traveling against gravity. Really has little to do with "computers" except to say that a computer chp would probably carry out the logic instructions.

All these other forms spoke about here do not mimic or model the physics of a weight stack, or even attempt to do so. They have their own physics "footprint" that doesn't come close to that of a weight stack.

This digital circuit would drive some sort of servomechanism (gears, magnetic, hydraulic or whatever), and the blindfolded subject could not tell the diff b/w this resistance or that of the weight stack. Both would feel identical.

We could even pipe in some audio of weights clanging ;) or a virtual weightstack for those that wish more visual and audio experience LOL

Is everyone getting what I am saying??
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jn6047

I think so. It sounds like an extremely complex solution to a problem that only exists in some peoples minds. LOL.

jn6047
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

southbeach wrote:
Interesting comments.

However, I'm not referring to "electronic" resistance in its current or past forms, such as isokinetic or magmatic or hydraulic or even computer controlled.

My line of thought is the creation of a DIGITAL ELECTRONIC CIRCUIT that MIMICS the feel and resistance of a weigh stack traveling against gravity. Really has little to do with "computers" except to say that a computer chp would probably carry out the logic instructions.

All these other forms spoke about here do not mimic or model the physics of a weight stack, or even attempt to do so. They have their own physics "footprint" that doesn't come close to that of a weight stack.

This digital circuit would drive some sort of servomechanism (gears, magnetic, hydraulic or whatever), and the blindfolded subject could not tell the diff b/w this resistance or that of the weight stack. Both would feel identical.

We could even pipe in some audio of weights clanging ;) or a virtual weightstack for those that wish more visual and audio experience LOL

Is everyone getting what I am saying??


==Scott==
Sounds like you need a Holodeck! Number 2, I think I'm going for a workout! Yes captain, what's todays workout? Nautilus, REN-EX, X=Force, barbells, dielythium crystal subterfuge press?
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southbeach

entsminger wrote:
southbeach wrote:
Interesting comments.

However, I'm not referring to "electronic" resistance in its current or past forms, such as isokinetic or magmatic or hydraulic or even computer controlled.

My line of thought is the creation of a DIGITAL ELECTRONIC CIRCUIT that MIMICS the feel and resistance of a weigh stack traveling against gravity. Really has little to do with "computers" except to say that a computer chp would probably carry out the logic instructions.

All these other forms spoke about here do not mimic or model the physics of a weight stack, or even attempt to do so. They have their own physics "footprint" that doesn't come close to that of a weight stack.

This digital circuit would drive some sort of servomechanism (gears, magnetic, hydraulic or whatever), and the blindfolded subject could not tell the diff b/w this resistance or that of the weight stack. Both would feel identical.

We could even pipe in some audio of weights clanging ;) or a virtual weightstack for those that wish more visual and audio experience LOL

Is everyone getting what I am saying??

==Scott==
Sounds like you need a Holodeck! Number 2, I think I'm going for a workout! Yes captain, what's todays workout? Nautilus, REN-EX, X=Force, barbells, dielythium crystal subterfuge press?


Never expected you to "get it" lol
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NewYorker

New York, USA

southbeach wrote:
Interesting comments.

However, I'm not referring to "electronic" resistance in its current or past forms, such as isokinetic or magmatic or hydraulic or even computer controlled.

My line of thought is the creation of a DIGITAL ELECTRONIC CIRCUIT that MIMICS the feel and resistance of a weigh stack traveling against gravity. Really has little to do with "computers" except to say that a computer chp would probably carry out the logic instructions.

All these other forms spoke about here do not mimic or model the physics of a weight stack, or even attempt to do so. They have their own physics "footprint" that doesn't come close to that of a weight stack.

This digital circuit would drive some sort of servomechanism (gears, magnetic, hydraulic or whatever), and the blindfolded subject could not tell the diff b/w this resistance or that of the weight stack. Both would feel identical.

We could even pipe in some audio of weights clanging ;) or a virtual weightstack for those that wish more visual and audio experience LOL

Is everyone getting what I am saying??


Not sure I see a major advantage of an electronic w/s vs. a mass driven one. Steel is cheap and low maintenance.

If a manufacturer was going to replace a mass driven w/s with an electronic one they would be tempted to add features: allowing the user to adjust the resistance in the middle of a rep, programmed variation etc.Which makes the exercise harder and the machines less marketable.

A logical extension would be adjusting the resistance to match the users speed of movement and then record the force used. No cheating possible, honest accurate feedback and elimination of the learning effect. (read painful ego-buster) Who the hell would want that?

On second thought, it might find a niche with professional athletes.

But simply swapping steel for electronic resistance? I don't see the point.

Oh and to Scott's point of electronic stimulation, that might work if it is applied to the trainee in ample voltage when he terminates the set prematurely.
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southbeach

"User adjustable" I consider a huge advantage. The circuit could be "adjusted" to alter the resistance for differing needs or desires; or in the face of new research showing a certain resistance profile is better for this or that.

Also while steel is cheap shipping it isn't. Those stacks double the weight of the machine.
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