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Turpin

Been reading some posts ( with interest ) where folk are saying they achieved quicker fatigue to their musculature using certain protocol and/or machines.

Q; What do some feel are the advantages of quicker to fatigue format over one of more volume ( save for less time expended ) and vice/versa what disadvantages is there ?

Ive used both types of training ( & then some ) and feel that there are advantages to training in a manner with more volume where capillary capacity is increased , moreso in the advanced trainee where growth by way of simple muscle fibre tear and repair is VERY slow and requires extremes in effort and recovery.

T.

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Turpin

Anyone ? , what are the advantages of fatiguing on one set as opposed to fatiguing over say 4 sets ?

I do understand the advantages of achieving `fatigue` , but I also have come to understand the advantages of volume of work for the musculature.

T.
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larsvonthreat

The way I see it

More sets=more calories burned

It can be good or bad depending of your goal

Use your head to keep your sets and reps within the boundaries of your recuperative abilities.
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Turpin

larsvonthreat wrote:
The way I see it

More sets=more calories burned

It can be good or bad depending of your goal

Use your head to keep your sets and reps within the boundaries of your recuperative abilities.


True , and more sets NTF means more MU`s activated whilst negating nervous overload associated with the increased intensity common with fatigue over shorter duration ( the latter being more debilitating to ones recuperative ability )

T.
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crazeeJZ

Turpin wrote:
Anyone ? , what are the advantages of fatiguing on one set as opposed to fatiguing over say 4 sets ?

I do understand the advantages of achieving `fatigue` , but I also have come to understand the advantages of volume of work for the musculature.

T.


I believe muscles are stimulated to grow by both load AND workload, in the context of progressive overload, of course. I don't see how restricting one of those two offers advantages - actually the opposite.

I believe keeping workload to a minimum was a faulty deduction of AJ's. Since taking every set of a multiple set exercise to failure meant his systemic fatigue was high, he recovered better from minimal workload than from moderate workload. But the solution to less systemic fatigue should have been backing off of momentary muscle failure on every set of a multiple set exercise, not going down to minimal workload.

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HamsFitness

Turpin wrote:

True , and more sets NTF means more MU`s activated whilst negating nervous overload associated with the increased intensity common with fatigue over shorter duration ( the latter being more debilitating to ones recuperative ability )

T.


Turpin,

Not that I am disagreeing with you as you clearly have some serious background in lifting and results which is no mean feat.

I am curious as to see any research showing MU's being better recruited through NTF work vs TF lighter work?

Also for my own curiosity;

How does recuperation get measured and the differences between NTF and TF distinguished or are you speaking from personal experience?

Richard
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Turpin wrote:
Anyone ? , what are the advantages of fatiguing on one set as opposed to fatiguing over say 4 sets ?

I do understand the advantages of achieving `fatigue` , but I also have come to understand the advantages of volume of work for the musculature.

T.


==Scott==
I'm coming to the feeling that multiple sets stimulates size growth better than one set all out. One set to failure may be a good way to strength gains but being more concerned with size gains vrs strength as I get older I have found several sets seem to stimulate size more than one set did for me. I think it's got something to do with the pump and burn and feel I get with Multiple sets vrs one set.

Some people poo poo the pump but I think it's a vital part of size gains.Look at guys like Levrone who have genetics that allow him to gain on anything. He usually does about 4 sets per exercise and not often to failure. I think most serious bodybuilders do multiple sets and why would they do that if it didn't work? The answer isn't always steroids.

Steroids helps them recover for sure as they sometimes do huge and long workouts that would kill a normal human, so the average guy not on steroids just needs to scale it back some but not always to just one set.
Oh one more thing. I'm not fond of routines that make you have to wait long spances between workouts like 10 days or so like an all out one set to failure routine might do.It seems to take quite a while to recover from these new X-Force workouts and while that probably shows it's breaking down the muscle well it makes recovery time too long for me. I prefer to workout more often.
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southbeach

One set TTF IS sufficient but must FOCUS!

Many conditions must be met:

1) Restraint. Other BP's/segments must be constrained and therefore prevented from contributing to the torque about target muscle.

I cannot stress this euf. A seatbelt in a machine or sitting on a bench for free weighters is not sufficient.

Position oneself, then focus don't MOVE AOB (any other bodypart!)..i like to call this "joint focus".

The slightest movement of your COM (center of mass) for instance while performing a seated press with a barbell will lose F.O.C.U.S. to target muscle.

never lose focus

ps BTW, this leads to what BB's term "feel". They feel the resistance.

2) Sufficient reps. 8 reps is bare bare minimum. over 10 closer to 12 is sweet anabolic spot (imo). yes, AJ said 8-12 reps for most sets. but you'll only be around "eigh"t after adding weight! because you've successfully reached 12.

Most of your time will be spent over 10 in this scheme. adding weight too soon before you know it your at 5 or 6, struggling and shifting in the seat.

No good. :/

3) ISOLATION. Too many BP's (bodyparts) involved REDUCE intensity not increase it (to target muscle) contrary to many belief.

4) Sufficient frequency. I suspect many train too INfrequenly with too much volume. Many of AJ's routines are low in volume but 3 times per week.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

5) Rep speed. Ballistic reps lead to poor "feel", poor isolaation and poor tension in target muscle. And IBS (inadvertent body shifting.

Slow, steady, methodical, HARD.
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crazeeJZ

southbeach wrote:
One set TTF IS sufficient but must FOCUS!


Do you really think 1 set per exercise produces the same energy adaptations as, say, 3 sets per exercise does? Greater energy storage adaptations alone means the 3 sets per exercise you is bigger than the 1 set per exercise you. The pump is a side factor in this.

Many conditions must be met:

1) Restraint. Other BP's/segments must be constrained and therefore prevented from contributing to the torque about target muscle.

I cannot stress this euf. A seatbelt in a machine or sitting on a bench for free weighters is not sufficient.

Position oneself, then focus don't MOVE AOB (any other bodypart!)..i like to call this "joint focus".

The slightest movement of your COM (center of mass) for instance while performing a seated press with a barbell will lose F.O.C.U.S. to target muscle.

never lose focus

ps BTW, this leads to what BB's term "feel". They feel the resistance.

2) Sufficient reps. 8 reps is bare bare minimum. over 10 closer to 12 is sweet anabolic spot (imo). yes, AJ said 8-12 reps for most sets. but you'll only be around "eigh"t after adding weight! because you've successfully reached 12.

Most of your time will be spent over 10 in this scheme. adding weight too soon before you know it your at 5 or 6, struggling and shifting in the seat.

No good. :/

3) ISOLATION. Too many BP's (bodyparts) involved REDUCE intensity not increase it (to target muscle) contrary to many belief.

4) Sufficient frequency. I suspect many train too INfrequenly with too much volume. Many of AJ's routines are low in volume but 3 times per week.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

5) Rep speed. Ballistic reps lead to poor "feel", poor isolaation and poor tension in target muscle. And IBS (inadvertent body shifting.

Slow, steady, methodical, HARD.


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db144

crazeeJZ:

SB doesn't weight train so all he knows is what he's read that is to say no practical experience.

d
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southbeach

crazeeJZ wrote:
southbeach wrote:
One set TTF IS sufficient but must FOCUS!

Do you really think 1 set per exercise produces the same energy adaptations as, say, 3 sets per exercise does? Greater energy storage adaptations alone means the 3 sets per exercise you is bigger than the 1 set per exercise you. The pump is a side factor in this.

Many conditions must be met:

1) Restraint. Other BP's/segments must be constrained and therefore prevented from contributing to the torque about target muscle.

I cannot stress this euf. A seatbelt in a machine or sitting on a bench for free weighters is not sufficient.

Position oneself, then focus don't MOVE AOB (any other bodypart!)..i like to call this "joint focus".

The slightest movement of your COM (center of mass) for instance while performing a seated press with a barbell will lose F.O.C.U.S. to target muscle.

never lose focus

ps BTW, this leads to what BB's term "feel". They feel the resistance.

2) Sufficient reps. 8 reps is bare bare minimum. over 10 closer to 12 is sweet anabolic spot (imo). yes, AJ said 8-12 reps for most sets. but you'll only be around "eigh"t after adding weight! because you've successfully reached 12.

Most of your time will be spent over 10 in this scheme. adding weight too soon before you know it your at 5 or 6, struggling and shifting in the seat.

No good. :/

3) ISOLATION. Too many BP's (bodyparts) involved REDUCE intensity not increase it (to target muscle) contrary to many belief.

4) Sufficient frequency. I suspect many train too INfrequenly with too much volume. Many of AJ's routines are low in volume but 3 times per week.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

5) Rep speed. Ballistic reps lead to poor "feel", poor isolaation and poor tension in target muscle. And IBS (inadvertent body shifting.

Slow, steady, methodical, HARD.



when i resistance train i look for myofibrillar growth not "NRG" adaptations (whatever the hell that is)
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southbeach

db144 wrote:
crazeeJZ:

SB doesn't weight train so all he knows is what he's read that is to say no practical experience.

d



at least i resistance train my legs.
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HeavyHitter32

southbeach wrote:

when i resistance train i look for myofibrillar growth not "NRG" adaptations (whatever the hell that is)


Must be very disappointing after all of these years to still keep looking for myofibrillar growth, yet nothing while living on bean soup and salads, huh?
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db144

SB:

Deadlifts don't work the legs? Rowing doesn't work the legs? I said isolation/direct leg work, again your reading comprehension has failed you.

Don't you get tired of being wrong?

d
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

db144 wrote:
crazeeJZ:

SB doesn't weight train so all he knows is what he's read that is to say no practical experience.

d


==Scott==
Hey come on!! Let's give credit where credit is due! He did after all lift up those wine bottles Arthur gave him!!
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

southbeach wrote:
crazeeJZ wrote:
southbeach wrote:
One set TTF IS sufficient but must FOCUS!

Do you really think 1 set per exercise produces the same energy adaptations as, say, 3 sets per exercise does? Greater energy storage adaptations alone means the 3 sets per exercise you is bigger than the 1 set per exercise you. The pump is a side factor in this.

Many conditions must be met:

1) Restraint. Other BP's/segments must be constrained and therefore prevented from contributing to the torque about target muscle.

I cannot stress this euf. A seatbelt in a machine or sitting on a bench for free weighters is not sufficient.

Position oneself, then focus don't MOVE AOB (any other bodypart!)..i like to call this "joint focus".

The slightest movement of your COM (center of mass) for instance while performing a seated press with a barbell will lose F.O.C.U.S. to target muscle.

never lose focus

ps BTW, this leads to what BB's term "feel". They feel the resistance.

2) Sufficient reps. 8 reps is bare bare minimum. over 10 closer to 12 is sweet anabolic spot (imo). yes, AJ said 8-12 reps for most sets. but you'll only be around "eigh"t after adding weight! because you've successfully reached 12.

Most of your time will be spent over 10 in this scheme. adding weight too soon before you know it your at 5 or 6, struggling and shifting in the seat.

No good. :/

3) ISOLATION. Too many BP's (bodyparts) involved REDUCE intensity not increase it (to target muscle) contrary to many belief.

4) Sufficient frequency. I suspect many train too INfrequenly with too much volume. Many of AJ's routines are low in volume but 3 times per week.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

5) Rep speed. Ballistic reps lead to poor "feel", poor isolaation and poor tension in target muscle. And IBS (inadvertent body shifting.

Slow, steady, methodical, HARD.



when i resistance train i look for myofibrillar growth not "NRG" adaptations (whatever the hell that is)


==Scott==
Myofibiller growth? That sounds like some kind of heart aliment? Oh wait a minute, I think I see some of that popping out of my chest...No,my bad... it's just an alien....
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

southbeach wrote:
crazeeJZ wrote:
southbeach wrote:
One set TTF IS sufficient but must FOCUS!

Do you really think 1 set per exercise produces the same energy adaptations as, say, 3 sets per exercise does? Greater energy storage adaptations alone means the 3 sets per exercise you is bigger than the 1 set per exercise you. The pump is a side factor in this.

Many conditions must be met:

1) Restraint. Other BP's/segments must be constrained and therefore prevented from contributing to the torque about target muscle.

I cannot stress this euf. A seatbelt in a machine or sitting on a bench for free weighters is not sufficient.

Position oneself, then focus don't MOVE AOB (any other bodypart!)..i like to call this "joint focus".

The slightest movement of your COM (center of mass) for instance while performing a seated press with a barbell will lose F.O.C.U.S. to target muscle.

never lose focus

ps BTW, this leads to what BB's term "feel". They feel the resistance.

2) Sufficient reps. 8 reps is bare bare minimum. over 10 closer to 12 is sweet anabolic spot (imo). yes, AJ said 8-12 reps for most sets. but you'll only be around "eigh"t after adding weight! because you've successfully reached 12.

Most of your time will be spent over 10 in this scheme. adding weight too soon before you know it your at 5 or 6, struggling and shifting in the seat.

No good. :/

3) ISOLATION. Too many BP's (bodyparts) involved REDUCE intensity not increase it (to target muscle) contrary to many belief.

4) Sufficient frequency. I suspect many train too INfrequenly with too much volume. Many of AJ's routines are low in volume but 3 times per week.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

5) Rep speed. Ballistic reps lead to poor "feel", poor isolaation and poor tension in target muscle. And IBS (inadvertent body shifting.

Slow, steady, methodical, HARD.



when i resistance train i look for myofibrillar growth not "NRG" adaptations (whatever the hell that is)


==Scott==
Thank you so much for your continued antics on here Southbeach. Since there really isn't anything on this forum worth reading anymore at least you are giving me something to laugh about and right now I can use a good laugh.
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southbeach

db144 wrote:
SB:

Deadlifts don't work the legs? Rowing doesn't work the legs? I said isolation, again your reading comprehension has failed you.

Don't you get tired of being wrong?

d


not really.

do you really think rowing (for lats) work your legs, thoroughly? thru full range?

you skip DIRECT leg work, why, because it's hardest!

can't take heat get out the kitchen :)

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db144

Again your lack reading comprehension did I say Lat Row? Nope, I checked.

Rowing as in a Concept 2 Rower. You really have brain rot don't you? I was kidding earlier but if I were you I go get checked out by a doctor.

Direct work? LOL, show us what your direct work has accomplished running man but remember to increase the magnification so we can see scrawny in all its glory.

d
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Turpin

HamsFitness wrote:
Turpin wrote:

True , and more sets NTF means more MU`s activated whilst negating nervous overload associated with the increased intensity common with fatigue over shorter duration ( the latter being more debilitating to ones recuperative ability )

T.

Turpin,

Not that I am disagreeing with you as you clearly have some serious background in lifting and results which is no mean feat.

I am curious as to see any research showing MU's being better recruited through NTF work vs TF lighter work?

Also for my own curiosity;

How does recuperation get measured and the differences between NTF and TF distinguished or are you speaking from personal experience?

Richard


Hi Richard , All of which I post is from personal experience only , I dont hold much value in studies/research other that that which I have been a willing participant in.
I DO enjoy experimentation with my training/diet from research/input by others , only then would I endorse the findings ( if anyone was interested )

T.
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southbeach

db144 wrote:
Again you lack reading comprehension did I say Lat Row? Nope, I checked.

Rowing as in a Concept 2 Rower. You really have brain rot don't you? I was kidding earlier but if I were you I go get checked out by a doctor.

Direct work? LOL, show us what your direct work has accomplished running man but remember to increase the magnification so we can see scrawny in all its glory.

d


"i dont do squats cause my thighs are kung fu hardened.."

take your kung fu crap somewherese else.
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db144

I'll let you slide because you're still a child SB and I don't want to pollute Turpin's thread.

d
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traunsee

southbeach wrote:
One set TTF IS sufficient but must FOCUS!


It is not sufficient after training this way for 6 months. You have been here for five years; you have been doing HIT for how many years? twelve, and you have NOT built any muscle after the initial gains, this happened to me, and to everyone who has tried HIT, fact not fiction, problem I had no one to tell me I was wrong at first, when I did I then knew I was wrong, and trained explosively and with multi sets, as IF YOU LIFT SLOW, YOU CAN NOT GENERATE ENOUGH FORCE TO LIFT A WEIGHT THAT YOU CAN IF YOU LIFT EXPLOSIVELY, THUS WHEN LIFTING EXPLOSIVELY, YOU WILL BE LIFTING MORE WEIGHT, SO MORE FORCE OUTPUT, MORE IMPULSE AND MORE TENSION, 4/4 = 100 pounds used, explosive = 130 pounds used, lift 130 pounds multi times = 10 fold more tension on your muscles.

southbeach wrote:
Many conditions must be met:

1) Restraint. Other BP's/segments must be constrained and therefore prevented from contributing to the torque about target muscle.

This way you will use less weight, putting less tension per unit of time on the muscles.

southbeach wrote:
I cannot stress this euf. A seatbelt in a machine or sitting on a bench for free weighters is not sufficient.


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, JUST TRY WHAT I SAID, I WANT YOU TO GROW, AND EAT MORE, I learnt the hard way.

southbeach wrote:
Position oneself, then focus don't MOVE AOB (any other bodypart!)..i like to call this "joint focus".


As I said, you will then be using so little weight; you will hardly be stressing the muscle at all.

southbeach wrote:
The slightest movement of your COM (center of mass) for instance while performing a seated press with a barbell will lose F.O.C.U.S. to target muscle.

never lose focus


You have to stress the stabilisers to build the other muscles.

southbeach wrote:
ps BTW, this leads to what BB's term "feel". They feel the resistance.


All bodybuilders train the way I do.

southbeach wrote:
2) Sufficient reps. 8 reps is bare bare minimum. over 10 closer to 12 is sweet anabolic spot (imo). yes, AJ said 8-12 reps for most sets. but you'll only be around "eigh"t after adding weight! because you've successfully reached 12.

3)
4)
Try this for 30 sets, twice per week.

My triceps that are done twice per week were this.

Triceps pressdown 1 x 20,
15 seconds,
Triceps machine 1 x 20,
15 seconds,
Triceps extension 1 x 20.

Rest 1 minute and repeat the cycle 5 times in all.

Add weight.

Triceps pressdown 1 x 8,
15 seconds,
Triceps machine 1 x 8,
15 seconds,
Triceps extension 1 x 8.

Rest 1 minute and repeat the cycle 5 times in all.

30 sets in all.




southbeach wrote:
Most of your time will be spent over 10 in this scheme. adding weight too soon before you know it your at 5 or 6, struggling and shifting in the seat.

No good. :/


My way you always add weight to each new training session, as you?re using enough force to stress the muscles, and you do each and even set, failure is a thing of the past, that is until you build enough muscle as you don?t need much more.

southbeach wrote:
3) ISOLATION. Too many BP's (bodyparts) involved REDUCE intensity not increase it (to target muscle) contrary to many belief.

4) Sufficient frequency. I suspect many train too INfrequenly with too much volume. Many of AJ's routines are low in volume but 3 times per week.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.


Legs twice a week, 22 sets in all and about 120 reps in all, triceps see above, 60 sets a week, same for biceps forearms, and should, lats and chest worked once a week.

HOW DO YOU THINK YOUR MUSCLES NEED TO GROW WHEN YOU DOING SUCH LITTLE TRAINING THAT YOU ARE HARDILY STRESSING THEM. You do 1 x 10 = 1 minute, why do you think your muscles will grow if you work them for just 1 minute per week ??? There are 10080 minutes in a week, and you just train them for 1 minute and think they will grow, I mean a women gets more stress on the muscles doing half hour of housework to your 1 minute, 1 minute that means not working them for 99.99% of the time, and you expect them to grow from that, why, why would they need too.

southbeach wrote:
5) Rep speed. Ballistic reps lead to poor "feel", poor isolaation and poor tension in target muscle. And IBS (inadvertent body shifting.

Slow, steady, methodical, HARD.


as IF YOU LIFT SLOW, YOU CAN NOT GENERATE ENOUGH FORCE TO LIFT A WEIGHT THAT YOU CAN IF YOU LIFT EXPLOSIVELY, THUS WHEN LIFTING EXPLOSIVELY, YOU WILL BE LIFTING MORE WEIGHT, SO MORE FORCE OUTPUT, MORE IMPULSE AND MORE TENSION, 4/4 = 100 pounds used, explosive = 130 pounds used, lift 130 pounds multi times = 10 fold more tension on your muscles.

Do you people want to get bigger and stronger, or are you in a very disciplined club, that tells you what to do, and you will stick to what they tell you to do, even if it actually means you lose muscle in the long run, and that if you stopped doing it, you would in 6 months look like you always wanted, like most or people that lift weights, or are you paying people to tell you what to do, OR DO YOU WANT TO BUILD MUSCLE AT ANY COST.

I will be going on holidays soon, thus you will have lots of photos of me when I come back.

Traunsee
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HamsFitness

Turpin wrote:

Hi Richard , All of which I post is from personal experience only , I dont hold much value in studies/research other that that which I have been a willing participant in.
I DO enjoy experimentation with my training/diet from research/input by others , only then would I endorse the findings ( if anyone was interested )

T.


Thank you for your response. I was just curious as you mentioned about HTMU being better recruited from multi set NTF so I wondered if this was your thought process or something you had read.

I personally find that if I go for one all out set to failure I seem to fatigue due to metabolic fatigue and I am leaning toward that not being the type of fatigue we need for fibre growth.

That may very well vary from person to person though in my experience with clients.

Richard
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fbcoach

crazeeJZ wrote:
Turpin wrote:
Anyone ? , what are the advantages of fatiguing on one set as opposed to fatiguing over say 4 sets ?

I do understand the advantages of achieving `fatigue` , but I also have come to understand the advantages of volume of work for the musculature.

T.

I believe muscles are stimulated to grow by both load AND workload, in the context of progressive overload, of course. I don't see how restricting one of those two offers advantages - actually the opposite.

I believe keeping workload to a minimum was a faulty deduction of AJ's. Since taking every set of a multiple set exercise to failure meant his systemic fatigue was high, he recovered better from minimal workload than from moderate workload. But the solution to less systemic fatigue should have been backing off of momentary muscle failure on every set of a multiple set exercise, not going down to minimal workload.



Good Post crazyJZ. Strength and hypertrophy are without a doubt the result of tension and workload. Learning to balancing the right amount of volume and intensity for the individual (at this specific time frame) is key to progress. This does change due to different variables affecting recovery. This is usually referred to as the "art" of Bodybuilding.
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